Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟910,177.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
In a conversation with DAQ in another thread, the question moved from whether we were still required to keep the kosher laws of the Old Covenant to whether we were still required to keep any of the laws of the Old Covenant.
The same moral laws that existed under the Old Covenant also exist under the New Covenant -- so then it is still a sin to take God's name in vain - even when Christians do it.

Eph 6:2 "'Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of Ten applicable to all people ... Christian or not.

Christ quotes from the Law of Moses in Matt - the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses
Christ quotes from the Law of Moses in Matt 19
Paul quotes from the Law of Moses in Eph 6:2
Paul quotes from the Law of Moses in Rom 13, and Romans 7
James quotes from the Law of Moses in James 2
...

========================================

In the Rom 2:19-20 and the Gal 3 context - all humans are lost under the Old Covenant "Obey and Live" as Galatians 3 points out.
However as we see in Jer 31:31-33 "New Covenant" all that are saved are saved under the one and only Gospel covenant Gal 1:6-9 as was true of Moses and Elijah in Matt 17 and is true of all the saints still today.

For both groups - it is a sin to take God's name in vain and as 1 John 3:4 points out "Sin is transgression of the LAW" where "'Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of Ten
 

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Heb 4:1-11 - "Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest
,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts
.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience."

From this passage we see that the Israelites were given the sabbath as a rest, but many did not "enter into My rest". Why? Because of disobedience. But then He sets another day. What day? TODAY! Then verse 10 says that the One (Jesus) who has entered His rest has also rested from His works (salvation). So let us make every effort to enter into His (Jesus') rest.
But from what is it that Jesus is our rest? Jesus is our rest from our efforts to be "good enough" or to keep the Law perfectly. He kept the Law, and He offers us His perfection so that we can rest.
Thus, Jesus is the New Testament sabbath, and TODAY is the day to enter into Him.

There are so many things here taken out of context or are your words and not the scriptures, it will take a while to sort out.


Lets just start with something easy.

Where in scripture say this? Jesus is the New Testament sabbath.

God said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exodus 20:10

Mark 15:42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath

John 15:9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Are you claiming Jesus our Savior somehow turned into a day? There is no scripture that say Jesus is the Sabbath day. This is not a teaching in the Word of God, certainly nothing that Hebrews 4 says. Hebrews 4 is telling us that the Sabbath remains for God's people.

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Which is why Jesus expected His people to keep the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven.

Matthew 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

So according to you this means : And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on Jesus.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

So every Jesus the apostles reasoned in the synagogues,- Really this is what you’re suggesting? .:doh:

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

The next Jesus almost the whole city came together to hear the Word of God- yea makes sense- of course not which is why we do not mess with adding our words to God's Word.

We are warned not to add or subtract to God's Word or lean on our own understandings. Proverbs 3:5-6 Proverbs 30:5-6 Deut 4:2 for good reason.
 
Last edited:

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,314
10,596
Georgia
✟910,177.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Heb 4:1-11
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience."

From this passage we see that the Israelites were given the sabbath as a rest, but many did not "enter into My rest". Why? Because of disobedience. But then He sets another day. What day? TODAY! Then verse 10 says that the One (Jesus) who has entered His rest has also rested from His works (salvation). So let us make every effort to enter into His (Jesus') rest.
But from what is it that Jesus is our rest? Jesus is our rest from our efforts to be "good enough" or to keep the Law perfectly. He kept the Law, and He offers us His perfection so that we can rest.
Thus, Jesus is the New Testament sabbath, and TODAY is the day to enter into Him.
there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. -- "remains from when"??.. Heb 4 says it remains as it was in the time of David.

1. No text says "Jesus is the Sabbath"
2. No text says "Jesus is the NT Sabbath"
3. No text says the Commandments of God are now deleted

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
"sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Where "'Honor your father and mother' is still "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 and applicable to all mankind.

James 2 - preaching to NT church members - quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses
 
  • Useful
  • Like
Reactions: HIM and HARK!

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
In a conversation with DAQ in another thread, the question moved from whether we were still required to keep the kosher laws of the Old Covenant to whether we were still required to keep any of the laws of the Old Covenant. Below is a summation of my understanding of the modern Christian's responsibility to the Old Covenant based on Scripture, New and Old.

What is the purpose of the Law today?
1 Cor 10:11 - "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
The Old Covenant stories are an example to us and as instruction to us; they are history from which we learn.

Rom 15:4 - "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."
Again, the Old Covenant Scriptures are for our encouragement and instruction.

2 Tim 3:14-17 - "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work."
The "sacred writings" and "all Scripture" here are the Old Covenant (the New Covenant having not yet been compiled as we have it today). The Old Covenant Scriptures are valuable "for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, and for training in righteousness". However, are they still binding on us today? Are we still bound to obey the Law of Moses? Is our salvation tied to keeping the Law? Or are we freed from the Law?


What then is the purpose of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant?
In Galatians 2, Paul tells of his confrontation with Peter. Before some of the Jews came to where Peter was, Peter was living and eating with Gentiles (presumably eating what the Gentiles ate), but when the Jews came Peter withdrew hypocritically from the Gentiles, and caused many of the Christian Jews with him to sin also (Gal 2:11-14).
Gal 2:15-21 - "“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Far from it! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a wrongdoer. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and ]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”"
The Law of Moses does not have the capability of making a person righteous before God.

The purpose of the Law was to show us what sin was, and to demonstrate to us that we could not keep the Law of God perfectly no matter how hard we try.
Gal 3:21-29 - "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."

The Law was not given to make us righteous, nor was it able to give us life. It was given to be a guardian (some translations say schoolmaster), an educator that would teach us morality and bring us to Jesus when He came. But now that Jesus has come in the flesh, we are no longer under the guardian, but are now under Christ. And this makes us heirs to God's promise to Abraham.
Romans 3:19-20 restates this same point.
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin."

But we are told in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that someday a New Covenant would be made with Israel.
"“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”"
This very passage was quoted by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8. Right after the writer says that we have a High Priest greater than any High Priest of the past (the Old Covenant), who is not able to be a priest of the Old Covenant because He is not of the right House. But He is both our High Priest and King then and forever.
Heb 8:1-7 - "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second."

The OT priests (Levites) served a copy of the Heavenly things, but Jesus is the thing which they copied. But there was fault in the first (Old) Covenant, and so a second was required; a better Covenant based on better promises.
Heb 8:13 - "When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear."
When did He say that there was a New Covenant coming? In Jeremiah. The Old Covenant was made obsolete when Jeremiah was alive, but it did not disappear (cease to be relevant to believers in God) until Jesus came and fulfilled it.

Here are God's Ten Commandments for reference....

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

God identifies them as "My commandments" right in the Ten... and God said we cannot add or subtract to His commandments Deut 4:2 so editing the Sabbath or any commandment is prohibited. This is the work of God alone Exodus 32:16

Anytime you see the commandments of God in both Old and New Testament they are including God's Ten commandments that again He personally identifies as "His" so your argument against that is not with man.

How do we know? Jesus makes it clear....and condemns those who do not keep God's commandments quoting directly from the commandments above in Exodus 20
Matthew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Jesus is the Mediator of God's New Covenant promise that He writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that Jesus kept His whole life as our example instead of deleting or changing. John 15:10, Luke 4:16, 1 John 2:3-6 Jesus came to do the will of God John 6:38

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 which is in harmony with God's will for us Exodus 20:6 Psalms 40:8 Hebrews 8:10
 
Last edited:

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In a conversation with DAQ in another thread, the question moved from whether we were still required to keep the kosher laws of the Old Covenant to whether we were still required to keep any of the laws of the Old Covenant. Below is a summation of my understanding of the modern Christian's responsibility to the Old Covenant based on Scripture, New and Old.

What is the purpose of the Law today?
1 Cor 10:11 - "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
The Old Covenant stories are an example to us and as instruction to us; they are history from which we learn.

Rom 15:4 - "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."
Again, the Old Covenant Scriptures are for our encouragement and instruction.

2 Tim 3:14-17 - "You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work."
The "sacred writings" and "all Scripture" here are the Old Covenant (the New Covenant having not yet been compiled as we have it today). The Old Covenant Scriptures are valuable "for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, and for training in righteousness". However, are they still binding on us today? Are we still bound to obey the Law of Moses? Is our salvation tied to keeping the Law? Or are we freed from the Law?


What then is the purpose of the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant?
In Galatians 2, Paul tells of his confrontation with Peter. Before some of the Jews came to where Peter was, Peter was living and eating with Gentiles (presumably eating what the Gentiles ate), but when the Jews came Peter withdrew hypocritically from the Gentiles, and caused many of the Christian Jews with him to sin also (Gal 2:11-14).
Gal 2:15-21 - "“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Far from it! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a wrongdoer. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and ]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”"
The Law of Moses does not have the capability of making a person righteous before God.

The purpose of the Law was to show us what sin was, and to demonstrate to us that we could not keep the Law of God perfectly no matter how hard we try.
Gal 3:21-29 - "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."

The Law was not given to make us righteous, nor was it able to give us life. It was given to be a guardian (some translations say schoolmaster), an educator that would teach us morality and bring us to Jesus when He came. But now that Jesus has come in the flesh, we are no longer under the guardian, but are now under Christ. And this makes us heirs to God's promise to Abraham.
Romans 3:19-20 restates this same point.
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin."

But we are told in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that someday a New Covenant would be made with Israel.
"“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”"
This very passage was quoted by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 8. Right after the writer says that we have a High Priest greater than any High Priest of the past (the Old Covenant), who is not able to be a priest of the Old Covenant because He is not of the right House. But He is both our High Priest and King then and forever.
Heb 8:1-7 - "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no circumstances would have been sought for a second."

The OT priests (Levites) served a copy of the Heavenly things, but Jesus is the thing which they copied. But there was fault in the first (Old) Covenant, and so a second was required; a better Covenant based on better promises.
Heb 8:13 - "When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear."
When did He say that there was a New Covenant coming? In Jeremiah. The Old Covenant was made obsolete when Jeremiah was alive, but it did not disappear (cease to be relevant to believers in God) until Jesus came and fulfilled it.
Heb 10:1-10 - "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time."

By His sacrifice on the Cross, Jesus took away the first order (the Old Covenant) to establish the second (New Covenant).
Finally, Gal 4:21-31 gives us a very clear picture from history to depict the reality of the two covenants.
"Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman."

The Old Covenant which came from Mt. Sinai is likened to Hagar, the slave mother of the slave son of Abraham who would not be heir.
The New Covenant in Christ is likened to Sarah, the free mother of the free son of Abraham who was heir to the promise.
As we have seen in Gal 3:29 above, those who believe in Christ are heirs to Abraham and the Promise, not those who cling to the Old Covenant.

What does this mean for us today?
Acts 15:8-11 - "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Since this is the case, why are you putting God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”"
Peter, speaking here to the other Apostles and leaders in Jerusalem, asks a very pertinent question. Why would the Jews seek to put around the necks of the Gentiles a yolk that they themselves had been able to bear? The Jews were and are saved through the grace of Jesus just as the Gentiles of the first century were and are still today.
So then, it is clear when Paul speaks to the people at Colossi that he is telling them that they are not bound to the Law in what they eat, or what festivals they keep, or to keeping the sabbath.
Col 2:16-17 - "Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."
Let no one judge you or criticize you about what you eat or drink, or about a festival you keep or don't keep, or about keeping or not keeping the sabbath, because these things are only a shadow of the real thing, and the real thing is Christ.
Matt 5:17-18 - "“Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!""
Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (the Old Covenant). What does it mean that He "fulfilled" it?
1. He kept them perfectly
2. He fulfilled the prophecies about the Messiah that would come and save both Israel and the Nations.
3. He satisfied the Covenant with God, finishing all the requirements of the Law and making room for a New Covenant to be established that would accomplish the promise made to Abraham.

Heb 4:1-11 - "Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest
,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They certainly shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts
.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience."

From this passage we see that the Israelites were given the sabbath as a rest, but many did not "enter into My rest". Why? Because of disobedience. But then He sets another day. What day? TODAY! Then verse 10 says that the One (Jesus) who has entered His rest has also rested from His works (salvation). So let us make every effort to enter into His (Jesus') rest.
But from what is it that Jesus is our rest? Jesus is our rest from our efforts to be "good enough" or to keep the Law perfectly. He kept the Law, and He offers us His perfection so that we can rest.
Thus, Jesus is the New Testament sabbath, and TODAY is the day to enter into Him.
 
SabbathBlessings
SabbathBlessings
@Doug Brents Please quote exactly where it says Jesus is the Sabbath (without your commentary) Nothing in Hebrews 4:1-11 says that- no cherry picking just specifically showing you that we are to rest when God rest and the verse says the SEVENTH DAY God rested. Post the verse that says Jesus is our Sabbath, no commentary. Thanks
Upvote 0
Doug Brents
Doug Brents
Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean it is not there.
"10 For the One who has entered His rest has Himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest,...."
...effort to enter that rest.... What rest? The rest of the One who has entered His rest, Jesus.
Upvote 0
SabbathBlessings
SabbathBlessings
When does God rest? Read Genesis 2:1-3, Hebrews 4:4 it literally spells it out. You still did not show that Jesus is the Sabbath. The rest Jesus provides does not replace the Sabbath commandment- we enter through obedience not disobedience Hebrews 4:6, Hebrews 4:11 Jesus is not the Sabbath- the rest He provides has been available from the foundation of the world- Old Covenant.
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here are God's Ten Commandments for reference....

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

God identifies they are "His" commandments right in the Ten... and God said we cannot add or subtract to His commandments Deut 4:2 so editing the Sabbath or any commandment is prohibited. This is the work of God alone Exodus 32:16

Anytime you see the commandments of God in both old and New Testament they are including God's Ten commandments that again He personally identifies as "His" so your argument against that is not with man.

How do we know that? Jesus makes it clear....and condemns those who do not keep God's commandments quoting directly from the commandments above in Exodus 20
Matthew 15: 3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Jesus is the Mediator of God's New Covenant promise that He writes His laws in the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that Jesus kept His whole life as our example instead of deleting or changing. John 15:10, Luke 4:16, 1 John 2:3-6 because Jesus came to do the will of God John 6:38

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 which is in harmony with God's will for us Psalms 40:8 Hebrews 8:10
I am not speaking of the 10 Commandments, nor of the Law of Moses, but of the Old Covenant as a whole: the entirety of the Old Covenant, of which the Law of Moses was a small part.

The commandment to be circumcised is not originally part of the Law of Moses. It predates the Law by more than 400 years, being commanded of Abraham near the beginning of the Covenant which God made with him. And it was incorporated into the Law because it was part of the Covenant made with Abraham. But what does Gal 5:2-6 say? "Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."
Circumcision, one of the backbone commandments of the OT, is, here in this passage, made null and void in the New Covenant.

Now, I am not debating that murder, adultery, coveting, disrespect to parents or to authority, etc. are now righteous. They are not, because they are all expounded in the New Covenant as being sinful still. But keeping the sabbath, and circumcision, and keeping the "Holy Days" (festivals) are not part of the New Covenant. They were either omitted, or are expressly excluded, from the listing of what is required in the New Covenant.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am not speaking of the 10 Commandments, nor of the Law of Moses, but of the Old Covenant as a whole: the entirety of the Old Covenant, of which the Law of Moses was a small part.

The commandment to be circumcised is not originally part of the Law of Moses. It predates the Law by more than 400 years, being commanded of Abraham near the beginning of the Covenant which God made with him. And it was incorporated into the Law because it was part of the Covenant made with Abraham. But what does Gal 5:2-6 say? "Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."
Circumcision, one of the backbone commandments of the OT, is, here in this passage, made null and void in the New Covenant.

Now, I am not debating that murder, adultery, coveting, disrespect to parents or to authority, etc. are now righteous. They are not, because they are all expounded in the New Covenant as being sinful still. But keeping the sabbath, and circumcision, and keeping the "Holy Days" (festivals) are not part of the New Covenant. They were either omitted, or are expressly excluded, from the listing of what is required in the New Covenant.

Where do you find circumcision in the Ten Commandments? I quoted them above for your reference. Because one thing changed, does not mean that we can arbitrarily decide what we want changed. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments but the Sabbath is.

Paul also reminds us Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

God defined the Sabbath as one of His commandments that we cannot add or subtract from. Deut 4:2
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. -- "remains from when"??.. Heb 4 says it remains as it was in the time of David.

1. No text says "Jesus is the Sabbath"
2. No text says "Jesus is the NT Sabbath"
3. No text says the Commandments of God are now deleted

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
"sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Where "'Honor your father and mother' is still "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 and applicable to all mankind.

James 2 - preaching to NT church members - quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses
"Remains from when"?

Where do you get a "when" from which it remains in this passage?
Heb 4:7-9
"He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts
.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

There remains a sabbath rest: TODAY! Today is the day not to harden your hearts to our rest in Christ Jesus. If the seventh day were the rest they needed, then God would not have given them "another day".

And yes, in the passages I quoted above, it is perfectly clear that the Old Covenant, all of the commandments and requirements that precede Christ, were summarily fulfilled and removed in Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pasifika
P
pasifika
You have understood those passages well...our Sabbath day is called "Today", God's Sabbath day is the "seventh Day", that's clearly states in Hebrews 3&4...
Upvote 0
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There remains a sabbath rest: TODAY!
We are told not to add to the Word of God- this is not in scripture.

It says today- if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts, does not say today is the Sabbath. We need to be careful because our words do not equal the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Care to address what rest in this verse literally translates into?

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

This passage is a warning for those who harden their hearts to obedience to God. Those who it was first preached Hebrews 4:6 also broke the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13 which we must be diligent not to fall into the same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11. we enter into Christ rest by following His example and ceasing our works on the seventh day just as God did. Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:10

There is no scripture that says we can break any of God's commandments including the Sabbath commandment. Jesus warns us of teaching others to break the commandments Matthew 5:19
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Benjamin Müller

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
622
447
Western New York
✟43,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
But keeping the sabbath, and circumcision, and keeping the "Holy Days" (festivals) are not part of the New Covenant.
I'd like to ask why you put the Holy Days in quotations. I can't express enough my sheer disdain for you doing this.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Where do you find circumcision in the Ten Commandments? I quoted them above for your reference. Because one thing changed, does not mean that we can arbitrarily decide what we want changed. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments but the Sabbath is so your argument is not with me.

Paul also reminds us Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

God defined the Sabbath as one of His commandments that we cannot add or subtract from. Deut 4:2
Circumcision was also one of the commandments of God (Gen 17:10). And it was even more important than the 10, because it was the sign of the covenant with God. And as Paul says in 1 Cor 7, if you require circumcision (or any of the other OT commands because they are OT commands) then you are required to keep ALL of the OT commands to be called righteous; Christ is of no use to you. Keeping the commandments of God in the NT is keeping the NT commands, not the OT. The OT was nailed to the cross with Christ.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Circumcision was also one of the commandments of God (Gen 17:10). And it was even more important than the 10, because it was the sign of the covenant with God. And as Paul says in 1 Cor 7, if you require circumcision (or any of the other OT commands because they are OT commands) then you are required to keep ALL of the OT commands to be called righteous; Christ is of no use to you. Keeping the commandments of God in the NT is keeping the NT commands, not the OT. The OT was nailed to the cross with Christ.

Did God write circumcision in stone with His own finger? Was the law for circumcision placed inside the ark of the covenant or outside? Where does it say circumcision is more important than the commandments of God? These are your words, not scripture. 1 Cor 7:19 says the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But keeping the sabbath, and circumcision, and keeping the "Holy Days" (festivals) are not part of the New Covenant.
Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments as our example. I am going with Jesus on this one. Jesus said the Sabbath would be kept long after He ascended back to heaven for His followers Matthew 24:20 and kept for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 and it is one of God's handwritten commandments kept in the ark of the covenant that is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to ask why you put the Holy Days in quotations. I can't express enough my sheer disdain for you doing this.
I did not intend to offend you in doing so. The Holy Days are among the festivals and holidays that were expressly excluded from being mandatory in the New Covenant (Col 2:16). Those days and festivals are no longer Holy, but are kept today because of the traditions of men. Please forgive me for offending you in this.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did God write circumcision in stone with His own finger? Was the law for circumcision placed inside the ark of the covenant or outside? Where does it say circumcision is more important than the commandments of God? These are your words, not scripture. 1 Cor 7:19 says the opposite.
And I suppose that His writing in stone with his finger makes His command more meaningful than His word, or His inspiration through a human writer? Hmmm, interesting?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"There is no scripture that says we can break any of God's commandments including the Sabbath commandment. Jesus warns us of teaching others to break the commandments Matthew 5:19


What is love to God according to scripture?"

Love to God according to Scripture, the most important, is a choice of the will,

not an emotion nor a feeling, no, a choice of the will to obey God, to follow The Shepherd Jesus wherever He Goes, to do whatever He Says,

not just to call Him "Lord, Lord" yet fail to do as He Says,
but always to do as He Says.
I am not teaching anyone to "break the commandments". I am saying, as Scripture says, that the Old Covenant was completely fulfilled and accomplished by Jesus on the cross. We are no longer subject to ANY of the OT commands, but are now subject to the NEW Covenant and the commands in it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
And I suppose that His writing in stone with his finger makes His command more meaningful than His word, or His inspiration through a human writer? Hmmm, interesting?
See how you did that- you added to my words, I see a pattern here. God's commandments are His Word, they are not in conflict. God did make a distinction between the Ten Commandments and all the other laws. God identified the Ten Commandments as His commandments and only the Ten were written by the finger of God Exodus 31:18 and placed inside the ark and resides in the Most Holy of His Temple which is in heaven. Revelation 11:19. The Ten Commandments are the works of God Exodus 32:16 and when we depend on our works over Gods and our righteousness over God's it is not saving. We are sanctified by the Truth of God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree and this all gets sorted out soon enough.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,096
232
50
Atlanta, GA
✟14,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I guess Jesus missed the memo, because He kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments as our example. Yes, I am going with Jesus on this one. Jesus said the Sabbath would be kept long after He ascended back to heaven for His followers Matthew 24:20 and kept for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 and it is one of God's handwritten commandments kept in the ark of the covenant that is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 Weird you would know better than God.
For Jesus to have failed to keep the sabbath would have been sin, because He lived His entire life under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was not established until Jesus death, because it is His blood that ratified it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cribstyl
Upvote 0

Lost Witness

Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")
Nov 10, 2022
1,694
977
38
New York
✟97,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I myself Try to Observe the sabbath when able out of respect for the heavenly father and his WORK
the sabbath is part of the 10 commandments and the two commandments the LORD gave us covers them ALL,
However...."Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:”
Nor are we to put Stumbling Blocks before each other,
“Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”




With that Being Said, Happy Sabbath/Shabbat (From New York)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,101
4,251
USA
✟478,416.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
For Jesus to have failed to keep the sabbath would have been sin, because He lived His entire life under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant was not established until Jesus death, because it is His blood that ratified it.
No, Jesus lived His life under the New Covenant Hebrews 12:24 and lived a perfect life without sin as an example for us to follow.1 Peter 2:21-22, 1 John 2:6 There was no changes after Jesus died it was finished. Jesus commanded His disciples to teach everything Jesus observed Matthew 28:20, Jesus observed the Sabbath so your argument is with Someone much greater than I.
 
Upvote 0