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Did Men Really Walk On The Moon?

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 84.5%
  • No. But all other space missions are real.

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • No. And other space missions are fake too.

    Votes: 14 13.6%

  • Total voters
    103

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So, to get back yo my q., I guess not.
Needless to say like like most everyone else, my belief and skepticism regarding various topics is determined on a case by case basis.

Aside from that, your question of "Do you apply any of this extreme skepticismto your personally chosen beliefs?" doesn't make any sense to me. How can one be extremely skeptical about something they choose to believe in? It's like asking me if I apply my dislike for beets to foods I like.
 
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The Liturgist

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Those are some possibilities. Another possibility they weren't really able to accomplish it back then.
That’s not actually a possibility, because the Space Shuttle would not have been possible without Skylab and the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, and the International Space Station and Hubble Space Telescope, in addition to various advanced military reconaissance satellites that were launched or serviced by the Shuttle, and since its retirement, by the Boeing X-37B automated spaceplane (it was a desire for this capability that prompted the Soviet Union to develop Buran) would not have been possible.

As far as a return to the Moon is concerned, if NASA hadn’t cancelled the Constellation initiative and turned Orion into a corporate welfare program for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and ATK, we probably would have returned by 2015 at the latest. Of course, returning to the moon is really overrated except as a proving ground for a Mars mission; the real reason NASA has waited this long to return is due to the political discomfort with nuclear powered spacecraft and various technical challenges making a manned mission to Mars economically and politically impossible in the 1970s and 80s. We could have done it in the 1990s had the US government had an interest in pursuing it then, but Mars did not re-emerge as a national space priority until the 2000s.

It should also be noted that the Space Shuttle and other launch systems developed in the interim by NASA, the USAF, the ESA, and the Soviet space program (which developed closed-cycle engines which offer a performance boost by not wasting the output of their own turbopumps) all contributed technologically to the latest SpaceX designs like Falcon Heavy, the manned Crew Dragon capsule, and the Starship, as well as the Boeing Starliner and the Orion SLS.

*ATK, formerly Morton-Thiokol, is the somewhat notorious manufacturer of the solid rocket motor boosters, which is nonetheless extremely important to the national defense as solid fueled rocket motors are also used, among other applications, to power all ICBMs and SLBMs, which is rather a good thing considering the destruction that happened at Launch Complex 374-7 in Damascus, Arkansas, when a leak caused the hypergolic liquid fuels used by the engines of the Titan II missile (which are the only alternative to solid fuel that can be used to launch directly from a silo; the Titan I used non-hypergolic liquid oxygen and I think RP-1, which is a petroleum product, but had to be raised from the silo before launch, and also liquid oxygen cannot be stored on board a typical rocket due to its tendency to boil off, which is why Saturn V and the Space Shuttle and newer launch systems only upload it and pressurize their LOX tanks immediately prior to launch, and there is also the famous hood that would capture escaping oxygen gas boiled off in the Shuttle external fuel tank before retracting in the final phase of the countdown).
 
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That’s not actually a possibility, because the Space Shuttle would not have been possible without Skylab and the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, and the International Space Station and Hubble Space Telescope, in addition to various advanced military reconaissance satellites that were launched or serviced by the Shuttle, and since its retirement, by the Boeing X-37B automated spaceplane (it was a desire for this capability that prompted the Soviet Union to develop Buran) would not have been possible.

As far as a return to the Moon is concerned, if NASA hadn’t cancelled the Constellation initiative and turned Orion into a corporate welfare program for the likes of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and ATK, we probably would have returned by 2015 at the latest. Of course, returning to the moon is really overrated except as a proving ground for a Mars mission; the real reason NASA has waited this long to return is due to the political discomfort with nuclear powered spacecraft and various technical challenges making a manned mission to Mars economically and politically impossible in the 1970s and 80s. We could have done it in the 1990s had the US government had an interest in pursuing it then, but Mars did not re-emerge as a national space priority until the 2000s.

It should also be noted that the Space Shuttle and other launch systems developed in the interim by NASA, the USAF, the ESA, and the Soviet space program (which developed closed-cycle engines which offer a performance boost by not wasting the output of their own turbopumps) all contributed technologically to the latest SpaceX designs like Falcon Heavy, the manned Crew Dragon capsule, and the Starship, as well as the Boeing Starliner and the Orion SLS.

*ATK, formerly Morton-Thiokol, is the somewhat notorious manufacturer of the solid rocket motor boosters, which is nonetheless extremely important to the national defense as solid fueled rocket motors are also used, among other applications, to power all ICBMs and SLBMs, which is rather a good thing considering the destruction that happened at Launch Complex 374-7 in Damascus, Arkansas, when a leak caused the hypergolic liquid fuels used by the engines of the Titan II missile (which are the only alternative to solid fuel that can be used to launch directly from a silo; the Titan I used non-hypergolic liquid oxygen and I think RP-1, which is a petroleum product, but had to be raised from the silo before launch, and also liquid oxygen cannot be stored on board a typical rocket due to its tendency to boil off, which is why Saturn V and the Space Shuttle and newer launch systems only upload it and pressurize their LOX tanks immediately prior to launch, and there is also the famous hood that would capture escaping oxygen gas boiled off in the Shuttle external fuel tank before retracting in the final phase of the countdown).
Well unless one wants to go the whole the earth is flat and everything nasa is fake, there's no question that lots of stuff has been sent into orbit. And stuff has been deployed to mars and deep space. But landing men on the moon back in 1969, can be seen as a bit of a stretch these days, considering our phones hold computer power that would take a building full of computers to hold back in '69. And then there's tech in our phones that is miles beyond anyone's capability back then. Added to that is even those who were involved with the apollo moon missions admit that the whole project was purely political. That it wasn't really about science, it was about being able to say the usa beat the ussr.

Keep in mind that I'm playing devil's advocate here.
 
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The Liturgist

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You got "extreme skepticism" from "I'm not entirely into being skeptical about it". I'm mildly skeptical about it, in a more playful than serious manner.

The problem with such playful skepticism is that it is disrespectful to Gus Grissom, Edward H. White II and Roger B. Chafee, who gave their lives for the Apollo program, as well as numerous other astronauts and technicians who placed themselves in extreme physical danger and who together with mission control personnel were also exposed to increased long term risk of physical and mental illness derived from stress, exposure to carcinogens ranging from cosmic rays to tobacco smoke, not to mention dangerous levels of sleep deprivation, and other hazards, and this entire team of technicians, engineers and astronauts put themselves through this, and three of them died a horrifying slow death due to the Apollo 1 fire, so that all of us could benefit from the innumerable scientific advances brought about by the Apollo program, and subsequent programs which were technologically derived from it.

Probably. I watched the Apollo 11 Eagle landing live. My older brother is an absolute aeronautics and space nut and involved me in it as much as he could. So I probably know a lot more about it than the average person.

Well, then to be frank, you should be able to recognize how the system design on newer spacecraft was directly influenced by the successes and failures of the Apollo program, and indeed the rival Soviet Luna program, which while a literal disaster in that the Luna rockets not only failed to achieve orbit, but one of them lost guidance control and crashed inflicting on the cosmodrome what was at the time the most powerful non-nuclear explosion ever to have been recorded, nonetheless was a vital program when it came to perfecting the closed-cycle rocket engine that SpaceX uses, and indeed which US rockets have used for over 20 years, since we began buying Russian engines originally designed for the Energia launch vehicle developed to launch the Buran orbiter for our unmanned Delta rockets.

All of these systems advances built directly on the achievements of the previous generations of spacecraft, going right back to the experimental liquid fueled rockets built by Oberth in the 1930s.
 
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The Liturgist

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But landing men on the moon back in 1969, can be seen as a bit of a stretch these days, considering our phones hold computer power that would take a building full of computers to hold back in '69.
The Apollo mission had two building-sized computers, specifically IBM System 360/85 machines that had full memory management and ran a custom RTOS, which was a technological ancestor to modern real time operating systems such as those I work on for a living, like VxWorks and QNX, which operate high end core routers and switches, medical devices, aircraft systems, and consumer devices of various types. Indeed VxWorks ran on some versions of the Linksys WRT54G as it required less memory than Linux.

As far as the onboard computers are concerned, the first computers ever designed to be extremely compact were built for ICBMs, and the Apollo Guidance Computer was a huge leap forward from that. The AGC is an amazingly impressive piece of hardware, but it is all that was needed to travel to the moon.

Most of the compute power on modern phones is actually wasted, in that it exists to play games and run pretty GUIs. In the early 2000s, we had more functional phones, which were more durable and better suited for their purpose than the smartphones of today. Indeed even the Moto RAZR, which I miss, was massive overkill. The joy of the original iPhone was simply the ubiquitous Internet access it enabled.

As for the added tech in our phones, a GPS system is not needed to navigate to the moon, nor would the astronauts have benefitted from a GPU or machine learning accelerator. Now, given that the three-gimbal Inertial reference units on the Command Module proved to be inadequete (recall Michael Collins transmission that all he wanted for Christmas was an extra gimbal), hardened versions of the solid state gyroscopes and accelerometers our phones have might have been useful, but of course guidance systems are generally much better now than on the early Apollo flights.
 
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The Liturgist

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Keep in mind that I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Indeed, that is evident, but I would urge you to be charitable and consider how offensive such remarks have been to Apollo astronauts like Buzz Aldrin, who is a deacon in his Presbyterian church, and who partook of Holy Communion after the Lunar module landed. Which I find to be very beautiful by the way, that one of the first actions to happen when we landed on the Moon was the partaking of the Eucharist. The Lord’s Supper has been celebrated on both planets humanity has visited.

Also a disproportionate number of Astronauts and Cosmonauts are Christian. Indeed, even during the Soviet era, many Cosmonauts were privately or secretly Christian, members of what we now call the Catacomb Church, that portion of the Orthodox Church that had to hide itself from state supervision, including even Yuri Gagarin. And among American astronauts, most are either Protestants or Catholics, with a minority of atheist-humanist types.
 
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Indeed, that is evident, but I would urge you to be charitable and consider how offensive such remarks have been to Apollo astronauts like Buzz Aldrin, who is a deacon in his Presbyterian church, and who partook of Holy Communion after the Lunar module landed. Which I find to be very beautiful by the way, that one of the first actions to happen when we landed on the Moon was the partaking of the Eucharist. The Lord’s Supper has been celebrated on both planets humanity has visited.

Also a disproportionate number of Astronauts and Cosmonauts are Christian. Indeed, even during the Soviet era, many Cosmonauts were privately or secretly Christian, members of what we now call the Catacomb Church, that portion of the Orthodox Church that had to hide itself from state supervision, including even Yuri Gagarin. And among American astronauts, most are either Protestants or Catholics, with a minority of atheist-humanist types.
You know this should just be a lighthearted pseudo-debate based on a hypothetical scenario. So, I'm going to bow out from all the extreme drama. Blessings.
 
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One thing I'll add to this is the number one reason given for why there were never any more moon landings, is because it was too expensive. Meaning they really weren't all that important. And they most likely never would have happened if the US wasn't competing with the USSR for bragging rights.
 
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Divide

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You know this should just be a lighthearted pseudo-debate based on a hypothetical scenario. So, I'm going to bow out from all the extreme drama. Blessings.

This thread too?! Oh man! Well I'm glad I started this thread at the end, lol. I'ma stay out of this one. Apparently I make some folks go into drama mode, and if they want to fight over what is true, then I don't want to add to it.

But I know all about it and have seen all the videos both pro and con, and I have formed solid opinions about it!

You guys don't get to know which way I believe on this now though! I'm in too many drama filled threads as it is, lol.
 
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This thread too?! Oh man! Well I'm glad I started this thread at the end, lol. I'ma stay out of this one. Apparently I make some folks go into drama mode, and if they want to fight over what is true, then I don't want to add to it.

But I know all about it and have seen all the videos both pro and con, and I have formed solid opinions about it!

You guys don't get to know which way I believe on this now though! I'm in too many drama filled threads as it is, lol.
Well I was replying to just one person. Not that I don't admire his passion. You can dish on me if you want without any drama. Just don't you dare hand me any of that Kubrick nonsense! :mad::p
 
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The Liturgist

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One thing I'll add to this is the number one reason given for why there were never any more moon landings, is because it was too expensive. Meaning they really weren't all that important. And they most likely never would have happened if the US wasn't competing with the USSR for bragging rights.
Well to a large extent you are correct about the cost of the missions not being immediately justifiable in light of the economic woes of the 1970s, however, I will say that the reasons for undertaking the mission were not purely pride, but rather were based on strategic national policy. The US hoped to benefit, and in most cases, did benefit, from the missions, in the following respects:

- Development of advanced rocketry technology, including improvements in propulsion, guidance systems, computer control, and communications, all of which have military applicability. It was expected that much of this would be applicable to ICBMs, but as it happened, as time progressed we wound up transitioning from liquid fueled engines to solid fuel motors for ICBM propulsion, nonetheless, the advances in guidance systems and heat shields for the re-entry vehicle would have been of great benefit. Indeed, it was military applications going back to the A4/V2 theater rocket that enabled civillian space flight (and it was a V2 launched in a suborbital trajectory as a propaganda exercise and scientific experiment by the Third Reich that became the first manmade object to enter outer space).
- Prior to the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, the opportunity existed to potentially exploit the moon as a launch site for nuclear weapons, and after 1967, a certain imperative existed to be able to verify that the Soviets were disinclined to attempt such exploitation (the treaty itself only happened because by 1967 the US was so far ahead of the Soviets when it came to the race to land on the moon that the Soviets already would have looked at it as a probable lost cause, and would have viewed the Outer Space Treaty as crucial to precluding American militarization of the moon,
- The advances in space-to-ground communications, orbital rendezvous and extra vehicular activity made during the Gemini and Apollo missions would prove invaluable for the deployment, repair and recovery of military spy satellites (and also had the scientific benefit of enabling the deployment, recovery and repair of the Hubbard Space Telescope, which initially launched with a defective lens, which had to be replaced in orbit, and which required additional servicing which the Shuttle completed in her final flights).
- Other advances in military and civillian technology including computer systems, food processing, power sources such as fuel cells, solar panels and Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators , and indeed even the memory foam pillows that I use when sleeping to support my arthritic net were expected and obtained as a result of the NASA Space Program in the 1960s.
- Lastly, the expenditure on the Space Program provided an enormous economic stimulus, which helped secure the 1960 exit of the US from the unpleasant and now largely forgotten 1957-1959 recession, and which helped to provide some stabilization to the turbulent economy of the 1960s. Of course this combined with increased federal debt and a transition to reliance on monetary policy enabled by the Nixon Shock, which decoupled the US dollar from gold and silver backing (remember how there used to be Treasury Notes for each denomination, convertible to gold, and Silver Certificates, convertible to silver, in addition to Federal Reserve Notes?) combined with the OPEC oil embargo led to the runaway inflation of the 1970s, but that inflation was inevitable, and on the whole the US entered the 1980s in much better economic health than, for example, the UK, which in that era regarded having a space program as a waste of money (fortunately this is no longer the case).
 
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Needless to say like like most everyone else, my belief and skepticism regarding various topics is determined on a case by case basis.

Aside from that, your question of "Do you apply any of this extreme skepticismto your personally chosen beliefs?" doesn't make any sense to me. How can one be extremely skeptical about something they choose to believe in? It's like asking me if I apply my dislike for beets to foods I like.
"Choose to believe". Now THERE is some nonsense!

I thu k it was some American philosopher who said
the unexamined life isn't worth living.

That's nonsense to you?
 
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Lost4words

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Probably. I watched the Apollo 11 Eagle landing live. My older brother is an absolute aeronautics and space nut and involved me in it as much as he could. So I probably know a lot more about it than the average person.

Maybe, but, a Corgi's knowledge knows no bounds! Lol
 
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d taylor

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Or, or, try this one on for size: the people who like me have been blessed with the ability to discern for ourselves the globular nature of the Earth, and also the people involved in the Apollo program and space probes like Mariner, Venera, Voyager 1 and 2, Pioneer, New Horizons, etc, aren’t the ones lying.

I take a lesson from Jesus about man, He did not entrust Himself, to man as Jesus knew man. Peter a close disciple and Apostle of Jesus, lied about knowing Jesus.

So if you want to entrust yourself to man be my guest.
 
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The Liturgist

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I take a lesson from Jesus about man, He did not entrust Himself, to man as Jesus knew man. Peter a close disciple and Apostle of Jesus, lied about knowing Jesus.

So if you want to entrust yourself to man be my guest.
Dude, you’re the one entrusting yourself to men. The existence of manned spacefligjt can easily be verified through observations, since the ISS can be seen even with the naked eye. For that matter, you could, if you wanted, test for yourself the validity of the Flat Earth model by chartering a three or four engined aircraft for a flight over the South Pole. If you got about 200-300 flat earthers to buy a ticket at the rate of a few thousand each, you could charter a 747 or A340 (since the route is not quite ETOPS alas) or possibly something older, perhaps one of the few surviving private 727s if enough fuel could be uploaded, and then fly from Buenos Aires to Melbourne.
 
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"Choose to believe". Now THERE is some nonsense!
Then why did you use it in your question?
I thu k it was some American philosopher who said
the unexamined life isn't worth living.
That's nonsense to you?
More like incomprehensible.
 
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d taylor

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Dude, you’re the one entrusting yourself to men. The existence of manned spacefligjt can easily be verified through observations, since the ISS can be seen even with the naked eye. For that matter, you could, if you wanted, test for yourself the validity of the Flat Earth model by chartering a three or four engined aircraft for a flight over the South Pole. If you got about 200-300 flat earthers to buy a ticket at the rate of a few thousand each, you could charter a 747 or A340 (since the route is not quite ETOPS alas) or possibly something older, perhaps one of the few surviving private 727s if enough fuel could be uploaded, and then fly from Buenos Aires to Melbourne.

No, i am not, you are confused. you are the one trusting in the lies of man.
 
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Lost4words

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No, i am not, you are confused. you are the one trusting in the lies of man.

The lies of men lay firmly at the feet of all those that spread untruths about a flat earth etc etc etc....
 
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