Did Adam have Eternal Life Pre-Fall?

[sawdust]

So you say. What spirit does unregenerate man have?

Adam was created, Christ was born and the regenerate man is spirit, soul and body. Remove the spirit and what are you left with? Soul and body only. The unregenerate man is called "psuchikos" for a reason (1Cor.2:14).

 

[sawdust]

Conclusion: Least common denominator! Yay! I always like it when a logical progression brings a simple conclusion!

Except when you begin with the wrong premise.

Being born of God means being spiritually alive. It does not mean having eternal life. The two are completely different things. The first is a generation of life the latter a gifting of life.

That which is born of the Spirit = something being produced and that which is being produced is spirit not eternal life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And yet you give no examples so how am I meant to respond?

Repeat your whole thesis. It is replete with such. I'm not going to bother. Too much else to tend to.

But if you don't, when I have time, I will try to remember to return here to do it, or some of it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There is a spirit of 'self' and a spirit of God.

Take that statement literally. At face value. Go with it.

How can self, then, in any way, induce Regeneration or Salvation?

 

[sawdust]

In 1 Co 15, the words "mortal" and "corruptible" not only do not mean the same thing, they also do not mean "immoral,"
"mortal" mean subject to death,
"corruptible" (phthora) means subject to decay, not subject to immorality, which word is kapeleuo.

I never said they were the same thing and I'm pretty sure I explained this earlier but in case I am remembering incorrectly ... Our spirit is immortal ie. not subject to death because it is born of God the Holy Spirit. If it cannot die, it therefore also cannot decay or be destroyed in any way hence it's immortality guarantees incorruptibility, not subject to decay.

Now, do you really think that which comes from the very nature of God should be placed into a vessel that is corrupted, ie born with a sin nature? Do you think we can be born separated from Him while at the same time having something of Him residing within our body?

 

[AbbaLove]

Conclusion: Least common denominator! Yay! I always like it when a logical progression brings a simple conclusion! (Small side note: I'm guessing when that happens, the logical progression is usually by way of negating what the conclusion is NOT. (That is, we find ourselves sometimes whittling away at human concepts to find the truth).)

Anyhow, yes! You come to the same conclusion as what I speculated, by a different route. Thus, @sawdust would do well to take note, that what I said (that I don't know of scriptural warrant to prove it) does not mean there is none, in spite of his crowing (post #246). You just showed the warrant.

As astute and knowledgeable as you are ... it's rather amazing or unamazing that these General Theology threads continue for sooo looong with seemingly little if anything really accomplished other than to confirm what we still think is correct after 14 pages.

When is the last time anyone has said something to the affect, "You know you're right. I thought my vision was clear when it was actually distorted." Even if that thought entered our mind human pride might stand in the way to admit to another "born again" Christian their vision was better.

I replied about "born again" in this thread or another thread in response to a post by Clare73. However, her reply to me seemed evasive and seemed to come across as "who does he think he is suggesting a theology that we've never heard or rarely, if ever, put forward before".

IMO the posts by Clare73 in these CF forums are well-expressed with sound Biblical support so was interested how she might reply as a "born again" Christian ... however was disappointed - at first. In hindsight it would have taken too much time for her to have digested and thoughtfully responded. Many, maybe all, would agree that we don't take enuf time to digest the merit of each others posts and too quick to find reason to disagree. Such is the haste of today's Christianity

 

[timothyu]

How can self, then, in any way, induce Regeneration or Salvation?

By choosing rather than self to think of others. It comes with the realization self interest is what is wrong with mankind. Discover a teaching by a 2000 year old man that mirrors that... bonus.

 

[Clare73]

As astute and knowledgeable as you are ... it's rather amazing or unamazing that these General Theology threads continue for sooo looong with seemingly little if anything really accomplished other than to confirm what we still think is correct after 14 pages.

When is the last time anyone has said something to the affect, "You know you're right. I thought my vision was clear when it was actually distorted." Even if that thought entered our mind human pride might stand in the way to admit to another "born again" Christian their vision was better.

I replied about "born again" in this thread or another thread in response to a post by Clare73. However, her reply to me seemed evasive and seemed to come across as "who does he think he is suggesting a theology that we've never heard or rarely, if ever, put forward before".
IMO the posts by Clare73 in these CF forums are well-expressed with sound Biblical support so was interested how she might reply as a "born again" Christian ... however was disappointed - at first. In hindsight it would have taken too much time for her to have digested and thoughtfully responded. Many, maybe all, would agree that we don't take enuf time to digest the merit of each others posts and too quick to find reason to disagree. Such is the haste of today's Christianity

Thanks for the kind words. . .

You have peaked my interest. . .could we re-visit the issue which disappointed you?
What and where was that?
I don't find that much presented in this thread to be digested, only one post, #204.
So would it be post #204, following?

Here's something that many Christians are undecided or believe what their church teaches ...

For those that believe Paul (after his conversion) still did the things he knew he shouldn't do (sin) and didn't do the things he knew he should do (Romans 7:14-25). How do Christians justify they are "Born Again" if they are still sinning. Yet that is what the majority of so-called Christians are led to believe that "born again" Christians still go on sinning. Actually Paul was referring to himself sinning before he was confronted by his Lord and Saviour and became a new man in Christ.

Not evasive. . . I questioned your assumed premise that the born again never sin in thought, word or deed.

Biblically demonstrate your premise and I will Biblically address it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

By choosing rather than self to think of others. It comes with the realization self interest is what is wrong with mankind. Discover a teaching by a 2000 year old man that mirrors that... bonus.

And how can man at enmity with God do that without having his mind and heart changed by God?

 

[timothyu]

And how can man at enmity with God do that without having his mind and heart changed by God?

There are many non Christians out there that can look at the state of the world and figure out the cause behind it. They then pursue how to reverse it and make a utopia out of it. Judaism and Christianity takes away a lot of the work I agree.

 

[Mark Quayle]

As astute and knowledgeable as you are ... it's rather amazing or unamazing that these General Theology threads continue for sooo looong with seemingly little if anything really accomplished other than to confirm what we still think is correct after 14 pages.

When is the last time anyone has said something to the affect, "You know you're right. I thought my vision was clear when it was actually distorted." Even if that thought entered our mind human pride might stand in the way to admit to another "born again" Christian their vision was better.

I replied about "born again" in this thread or another thread in response to a post by Clare73. However, her reply to me seemed evasive and seemed to come across as "who does he think he is suggesting a theology that we've never heard or rarely, if ever, put forward before".

IMO the posts by Clare73 in these CF forums are well-expressed with sound Biblical support so was interested how she might reply as a "born again" Christian ... however was disappointed - at first. In hindsight it would have taken too much time for her to have digested and thoughtfully responded. Many, maybe all, would agree that we don't take enuf time to digest the merit of each others posts and too quick to find reason to disagree. Such is the haste of today's Christianity

You have a point. And 'comprehensive' theological books are thick. Even sound arguments are never thorough on one point. Nobody has the time.

My problem is that when I hear falsehood, contraBiblical falsehood, I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut if I'm not so disgusted as to just throw my hands up in the air. I often do rate with 'like', 'agree', and even the very occasional 'winner' to some post whose writer I know very well doesn't mean what he said without trappings I completely disagree with. But if he didn't include the trappings, I will rate in keeping with his words (sometimes).

One BIG problem with agreeing with the good someone writes, is when they write without precision enough, to the effect that they sound true, and even come across with a satisfying feel to their words. God knows how many 'Christian' books are written that way to convince people to see things their way. Our current population has grown up appreciating a poetically balanced sound, rather than solid facts.

But yes, credit where credit is due.

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are many non Christians out there that can look at the state of the world and figure out the cause behind it. They then pursue how to reverse it and make a utopia out of it. Judaism and Christianity takes away a lot of the work I agree.

THE cause, or a cause? Not sure what you are saying here.

But every human has a conscience.

 

[timothyu]

THE cause, or a cause?

There is only one cause.. self centeredness. The same thing that Eve used to create the original sin of putting her will ahead of the will of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Except when you begin with the wrong premise.

Being born of God means being spiritually alive. It does not mean having eternal life. The two are completely different things. The first is a generation of life the latter a gifting of life.

That which is born of the Spirit = something being produced and that which is being produced is spirit not eternal life.

The Spirit of which the regenerated are born, is eternal God. The life given to man, Salvation, is everlasting, but not without beginning as far as the fact that we are begun. Yet its nature too, is OF eternal God. The Elect are IN CHRIST. Flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. (Just wait and see!)

 

[Clare73]

Except when you begin with the wrong premise.

Being born of God means being spiritually alive. It does not mean having eternal life. The two are completely different things. The first is a generation of life the latter a gifting of life.

That which is born of the Spirit = something being produced and that which is being produced is spirit not eternal life.

Did you see post #276?

 

[sawdust]

The Spirit of which the regenerated are born, is eternal God. The life given to man, Salvation, is everlasting, but not without beginning as far as the fact that we are begun. Yet its nature too, is OF eternal God. The Elect are IN CHRIST. Flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. (Just wait and see!)

I know that Mark, the Spirit is God, eternal life, but it is spirit that is born of Him, not eternal life. I'm not saying we don't have eternal life. It simply isn't being given to us in the John 3:3 passage that speaks of being born from above.

 

[coffee4u]

This issue was raised in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to as I went on holidays and it was off topic so thought I would deal with it here and see what you all have to say for yourselves.
I say he didn't as eternal life is imputed to our spirit and if Adam had eternal life he could not have died spiritually. It's also the reason we don't die even though we sin. You can't perish (spiritually) and have eternal life at the same time.

John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

What say you?

I think you are confusing things by using the wrong terms. Adam was immortal when he was created but this was not eternal life. What Adam had when he was created was innocence rather than salvation. He had no corruption rather than being incorruptible.

Death is due to sin and only due to sin.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

At that point he sinned his body started to die.
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall [f]bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Before this Adam was not going to return to dust or die. Death was a consequence. Corruption of the entire world was a consequence.
Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

Adam and Eve were unique. They were also given a sample of the New World God has planned. Eden was a shadow of what is to come.
Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Revelation 21 ​

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. ​

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. ​

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.​

4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”​

The New World is the final home for those who have eternal life.

The theory of evolution would try and teach that death is merely a natural part of life and has always been so. If death is simply natural then why did God tell Adam his body would return to dust because of what he did?
If the wages of sin is death and only mankind sins then why was there death for so called millions of years before man showed up?
Scripture teaches that death is Gods enemy and that it will be done away with.
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Would God want his enemy to help shape his creation?
God also proclaimed that same creation to be 'very good' How could it be "very good" If his enemy was a part of it?

The answer is easy, death was not a part of it. Mankind sinned and at that point Adam and Eve died spiritually and started to die physically. We know their nature changed immediately but we also know it was physical when God told him he would return to dust. Would have been an odd thing to say he would now return to dust because of what he had done if he was already dying before he had sinned.

Small edit due to spell check inserting the wrong word.

 

[sawdust]

Did you see post #271 and #276?

I read them.

1) Since after the fall Adam was definitely not a son of God in the sense of Jn 1:12-13, therefore, Adam was not a son of God before the fall, because sons of God never lose sonship.

Problem: Adam is called the son of God.

Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Rebirth is simply the second (spiritual) birth of the elect after natural birth (not a return to what Adam lost; i.e., he never had eternal life).

So are you now saying Jn.3:3 is not the giving of eternal life? If so, what is being born?

1) Those born of God are actual sons of God (Jn 1:12-13) and, therefore, possess God's divine eternal life (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14) as his sons.
2) God never takes away sonship, sons of God never lose sonship, they are the elect.

We are sons of God because He has caused us to be spiritually alive. We have eternal life because we are in union with Christ. OT saints were never in union with Christ which is why they did not have eternal life but they (believers) were spiritually alive having been born of God just as Jesus told Nicodemus was necessary to perceive and enter God's Kingdom.

 

[sawdust]

The answer is easy, death was not a part of it. Mankind sinned and at that point Adam and Eve died spiritually and started to die physically. We know their nature changed immediately but we also know it was physical when God told him he would return to dust.

How do you define spiritual death?

 

[Clare73]

th

I read them.

Problem: Adam is called the son of God.
Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

I take Lk 3:38 to mean Adam was a son of God, not in the begotten sense like Jesus, but in the created sense of having no human father.

So are you now saying Jn.3:3 is not the giving of eternal life? If so, what is being born?

Jn 3:3 is the giving of eternal life in the new birth.

We are sons of God because He has caused us to be spiritually alive. We have eternal life because we are in union with Christ. OT saints were never in union with Christ which is why they did not have eternal life

The OT saints were saved by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), as was Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3).

but they (believers) were spiritually alive having been born of God just as Jesus told Nicodemus was necessary to perceive

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus the new birth (spiritually alive) was something he could choose, but that it was a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).

and enter God's Kingdom.

Jesus said the kingdom of God has come (Mt 12:48),
it is not of this world (Jn 18:36),
but of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules, and
it is without end (Lk 1:33).

We are in the kingdom of God now, and will translate to heaven.