Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Bobber]

Bare assertion. Can you not find where Scriptures shows an angry God, a jealous God, a vengeful God?

I do believe God shows when he needs to his wrath and anger. For the universe that's actually a sign of LOVE itself for he wouldn't be love if he allowed things to continue wrongly forever. But sorry Calvinist have God acting in an unjust, unrighteous way, in ways that violate his character and you leave the world with a false sense of his personality and character.

What do we know about the tremendous value of a person?

Here's what we know about the tremendous value of a person. Jesus came from Heaven to the Earth and died a horrible death to be each one's substitute for sin. That should tell you right there what you should know about their value.

 

[Hammster]

I know exactly what question you asked and my answer I gave dealt with it.

No, you didn’t answer. You just asked questions. Go back and look.

But, if that’s how you think you defend your position, not much I can do about it.

 

[Hammster]

It appears he's trying to use the Socratic method of debating by always asking questions in seeking to steer a conversation. Some people are good at it while others don't know when to knock it off and just make their points.

That fact that you both avoid the actual questions indicate that I’m very good at it. And you’ll do what you can to distract. Much like the above post and your subsequent response.

 

[Bobber]

No. I don't say he has a part. He is default fact; he is the only "brute fact".

I know Calvinists will jump back and say this but then they'll go right ahead and say the next day God ordained everything that occurs to happen even before creation. You said yourself,

I believe that from the foundation of the world, God ordained that absolutely every detail, every motion of every particle...........,every pain and suffering, come to pass precisely as it does...."

But then you say he doesn't have a part! You can't see your position is so very disingenuous? I mean you can't be meaning by saying he doesn't have a part, similar to what Non Calvinists believe that God merely allows things.....NO you believe he ordained it to be. So Mark the truth is you're all over the map. You REALLY don't want to believe God had a part. That's good! Then give up your Calvinistic thinking. You can't have ordaining without God having a part.

Also, there is what we refer to as common grace, such as the fact that he makes it to rain upon the just and unjust alike. He gives them life, and helps them live productively. There is much more than that, besides, but they are not grateful

Sorry but your position is just so hyper on so many things. How do you know and how can you say people generally speaking aren't grateful to God? I've seen many offer up a thanksgiving to God when good things happen to them.

 

[Bobber]

That fact that you both avoid the actual questions indicate that I’m very good at it. And you’ll do what you can to distract. Much like the above post and your subsequent response.

Well as I said before Hamsters Jesus didn't answer questions ALWAYS put to him. Does that mean he failed in your book?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What are you saying? Are you saying MAN outside of God are not spiritual beings? What exactly do you think that MAN is. Just a physical fleshly being and doesn't become a spirit until they're saved? I told you you're trying to say a person cannot conduct a spiritual action unless they're saved. That's not true.

Actually, I asked you a question about a verse.

The only 'spiritual' thing Man outside of God can do is to reject God —in fact according to Scripture, he is unable to do anything that is not at enmity with God. THAT is, according to Scripture, spiritual DEADness. Are you trying to say that their rejection of God is "spiritual"? Do you really think that is what Hammster was talking about?

 

[Hammster]

Well as I said before Hamsters Jesus didn't answer questions ALWAYS put to him. Does that mean he failed in your book?

I know you think that’s clever. Jesus was never wrong, though. AlI see is someone who can make statements about theology, but is unequipped to actually defend them. The heart of debate is the cross-examination. You are avoiding having your ideas examined.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe that from the foundation of the world, God ordained that absolutely every detail, every motion of every particle...........,every pain and suffering, come to pass precisely as it does...."

But then you say he doesn't have a part! You can't see your position is so very disingenuous? I mean you can't be meaning by saying he doesn't have a part, similar to what Non Calvinists believe that God merely allows things.....NO you believe he ordained it to be. So Mark the truth is you're all over the map. You REALLY don't want to believe God had a part. That's good! Then give up your Calvinistic thinking. You can't have ordaining without God having a part.

No! I did not say he doesn't have a part. —When I show that your construction is false, it doesn't mean that God doesn't have a part. It means that is not a true picture, or an accurate presentation of the facts. It is not only as though God has a "part to play", he has the whole matter in his hands. But according to the hierarchy of causation, WE play a part, and that, by our own choice.

You keep trying to make your opponent bend his mindset to fit yours, by trying to make him answer in the terms in which you must couch your narrative.

"I'm sorry, your honor. It is not telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, to answer that lawyer's bogus question with either 'yes' or 'no'."

 

[Bobber]

I know you think that’s clever. Jesus was never wrong, though. AlI see is someone who can make statements about theology, but is unequipped to actually defend them. The heart of debate is the cross-examination. You are avoiding having your ideas examined.

And that's what they would have said to Jesus too.

 

[Bobber]

The only 'spiritual' thing Man outside of God can do is to reject God —in fact according to Scripture, he is unable to do anything that is not at enmity with God. THAT is, according to Scripture, spiritual DEADness. Are you trying to say that their rejection of God is "spiritual"? Do you really think that is what Hammster was talking about?

Without God providing the gospel the good news he'd not be accepting or rejecting He'd be in a state of limbo.

Sorry but your whole paradigm way of thinking of what enmity towards God has to mean is biased in your Calvinist position.

Yes mankind sinning is spiritual. What actually do you think man is just a physical functioning entity?

 

[Bobber]

No! I did not say he doesn't have a part.

Your words Mark, Post 177 "No. I don't say he has a part."

 

[Bobber]

It is not only as though God has a "part to play", he has the whole matter in his hands.

Now come on Mark. If your religion is going to say God ordained everything you can't just say he has the whole matter in his hands.

You do sound to me like other Calvinists I know that don't REALLY want to believe what Calvinism really teaches. It seems you're looking for ways to minimize the direct statements things like the Westminster Confession has to say about it. No offense but I think you just need to go all the way and come out and say enough is enough. There's no way God could have ordained all things like Calvinism teaches.

 

[Bobber]

.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know that's what you believe. And if I'm not able to move you away from that which I probably won't be at least to potential lurkers or readers I can ask them what type of God do they believe runs the universe. One who actually makes sinners commit great evil for if he ordained it before hand he's ultimately responsible. and to take it further.....to even punish those who are doing his will? Or do they choose rather to believe in God who is LOVE and allows freedom of will for people to choose what they want.

So in your last statement you said sinners were born into sin and they love it. We can talk about how true that is or not another time but because they love it you say they deserve to be judged. So what about the one who made and ordained them to be this way. So you're position is such one is such a lovely wonderful person? If monsters are out their you stop them but what about the one making them putting a horrible mental state within them to be this way. They haven't created a great evil. They have no part of the blame?

Are you saying God's universal causation means that sinners commit great evil against their will?

But your logic reduces God to our level.

By the way: Because they love their sin, they do the deeds for which they are judged.

"THEY"??? You call "the one who made and ordained them to be this way", 'THEY'? We are talking about Almighty God here. He is not tame. He caused what we see. You keep talking as though he operates on our level and can be called to account like we are. If you can't see your way clear from that just yet, at least admit to the obvious hierarchy!

You know intuitively and logically that all fact descends from the Omnipotent Creator, God, just as Romans 1 says all men know. But then you keep trying to excuse God from doing what he doesn't shrink from saying he does. John 1 doesn't apologize, "God feels bad about it, but he made all things." Your accusation against what God says about himself is equivalent to the unfaithful servant who said, "I knew you were a hard man". If you want to say, that to agree that God causes all things is to blame God, have at it, and enjoy the success of your efforts. But if, instead, recognizing that God is the one that causes both the bad and the good, like prejudiced Jonah, you think, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.", then you know that God relenting from sending calamity implies that he DOES send calamity, and in fact, that what we all deserve is calamity in spades, and ANY relenting from calamity is by God's gracious, compassionate loving mercy. —And he gives some of us that, in spades.

 

[Hammster]

And that's what they would have said to Jesus too.

And now instead of examining your views, you have found away to avoid it

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now come on Mark. If your religion is going to say God ordained everything you can't just say he has the whole matter in his hands.

You do sound to me like other Calvinists I know that don't REALLY want to believe what Calvinism really teaches. It seems you're looking for ways to minimize the direct statements things like the Westminster Confession has to say about it. No offense but I think you just need to go all the way and come out and say enough is enough. There's no way God could have ordained all things like Calvinism teaches.

Bob. They are logically the very same thing. ALL fact descends from First Cause. Not even the fictions of Chance or Unknowables nor Libertarian Freewill's little first causes, (some of them somehow better than others), trotting about the planet, can claim independence from God's causing whatever there is.

But what's more, Scripture says the same, all over the place. It is assumed from Genesis 1:1 throughout, to Revelation 22:21:

In the beginning, God created...
All things were made by him...
The Grace of the Lord Jesus...

And if I sound at all hesitant, unsure or apologetic about this wonderful God who relented from sending me to the condemnation I justly deserved, and instead showed me mercy I do not deserve, I apologize. He is magnificent, untamed, owes his creatures nothing —not even an explanation for the pain, dismay and confusion they must undergo.

But YOU exalt us to HIS level of reality, as though we being equally alive, self-aware, and of the same kind of agency as he is, is the only way we can justly and naturally be held to the eternal consequences for our choices. We have offended the One and Only, Self-Existent, Almighty Creator, (and yes, that by his own design, or we would never know his Loving Condescension, his Grace and Mercy), and that offense will be returned upon his creatures for what they have done.

My mind is not capable of holding the thoughts in hand to be able to express them. Please forgive me for not being able to demonstrate this Omnipotent God who is of himself the only "brute fact", like no other being, of whom my praises can't even begin to describe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I do believe God shows when he needs to his wrath and anger.

When HE needs, or when WE need? What IS this mindset of yours, to come up with this kind of stuff?

For the universe that's actually a sign of LOVE itself for he wouldn't be love if he allowed things to continue wrongly forever.

Agreed, in fact, it IS Love —not just a sign of it— and Justice.

But sorry Calvinist have God acting in an unjust, unrighteous way, in ways that violate his character and you leave the world with a false sense of his personality and character.

You persist in positing this strawman of Calvinism. This is ONLY your extrapolation of what Calvinism teaches, and that, drawn on false presumptions, such as, "The command implies the ability to obey", and, "God must deal with us on his level of existence, instead of on ours, to hold us responsible for what we do."

Does he present Job with only our notions of kindness, respect and love? —Did Job not tell his wife, who had told him to curse God and die, “Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?”

Here's what we know about the tremendous value of a person. Jesus came from Heaven to the Earth and died a horrible death to be each one's substitute for sin. That should tell you right there what you should know about their value.

That's rather a circular construction! We know he died for each one because we know of their tremendous value which we know because he die for each one?

We know their tremendous value because we are told in many ways to love each other, and to consider others better than ourselves. We don't even know what it means to be made in the image of God, but I can guarantee you that none of us is intrinsically anything in and of himself, but only as GOD's purpose and use for us, and GOD's assessment of us.

And again, as before, if I come across as in the least apologetic for what God plainly says about himself, I apologize. I have no intentions, in trying to get across to you how what he plainly says about himself is true, of cutting it down to your size. He doesn't apologize for it and I shouldn't either, nor does he ask me to water it down.

 

[Bobber]

Are you saying God's universal causation means that sinners commit great evil against their will?

There is no such thing as will at all if God has already decided beforehand by ordaining what men will do with their will. To make this simpler for readers you basically have God the author of a book and all it's characters. He's already decided what thoughts all the characters will have and ordained those thoughts to be. He's prescribed them already. So what you're saying is a will isn't a will at all. You're just trying to make it seem like it is to make you feel good about Calvinism. You're wanting to be mad at the sinner not at the one who prescribed everything they did with their will.

I know you folks always resist the claim you view makes men robots or automation but that's exactly what it does. Or when's the last time you saw a fictional character from a book rise about and resist what the author wrote. If he had a real will he'd be able to do that. You're wanting to believe man has a real will. Good. You need to strongly consider leaving Calvinistic thinking then.

But your logic reduces God to our level.

And maybe that's the thing you need to learn. Jesus many times appealed for people to not think his justice and ways of love are so far different than ours. He said if you then being evil know how to do this or that you don't think the Heavenly Father thinks the same way?

Or in another place if you had on oxen fall into a pit don't you reach down and lift it out? That's what logic does on our level. God is saying it's not so much different than mine.

He caused what we see.

He did not cause everything you see in the Earth. You might think that but it's not true. Jesus said the thief (the devil) comes to steal, kill and destroy but he came to bring life. If he caused everything you see then by what God says himself that would make him a thief. He's not. You need to reassess your thinking.

You keep talking as though he operates on our level and can be called to account like we are.

In Gen 14: 25 we see Abraham asks God an amazing thing. Will not the judge of all the Earth do what's right. You know what? That didn't make God mad. He didn't rebuke Abraham. He didn't say his assessment of what was righteous was in error. He even agreed with him by saying
If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. Now many things could be said about this which would take many paragraphs but God is not afraid or even disagrees that what our sense of judgment may be.

Your accusation against what God says about himself is equivalent to the unfaithful servant who said, "I knew you were a hard man".

The question is HAS GOD said about himself what Calvinist claim. I most certainly do not believe he has.

 

[John Mullally]

You’ve made being a slave to sin a moot point. You have a slave to sin doing the same thing as a slave to righteousness. And that’s besides having someone in the flesh pleasing God.

The NT says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. The righteous already have salvation. And per Ezekiel 18:30-32 repentance can be accomplished without God needing to change the nature of the repentant one.

Romans 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”​

1 Thessalonians 2:13-14 “And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God’s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.”​

Calvinists don’t believe in the power of the gospel—they believe in the power of pre-faith REGENERATION, so that only when accompanied by the power of Irresistible Grace does the gospel have any spark of life. So, in Calvinism, the real power of the gospel rests in an irresistible calling for those who disbelieve, that is, those who are born total haters of God, so that they can and must believe, as members of Calvinism’s secret elect.

As a non-Calvinist, however, there would be shame in a gospel which limits God’s love and denies that Jesus died for everyone (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2), depicting God like the priest and the Levite of Luke 10:30-32, passing by the vast majority of mankind for grace (i.e. Preterition), simply because not all are marked as elect.

 

[Hammster]

Calvinists don’t believe in the power of the gospel—they believe in the power of pre-faith REGENERATION, so that only when accompanied by the power of Irresistible Grace does the gospel have any spark of life.

When all you have is a straw man, I win