Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Clare73]

Yes it IS a perfomance. It's not a performance of a work of a law but a performance in the walk of faith.

< sigh >

That's what work is, a performance of something physical.

The walk of faith (work) must be preceded by faith (non-work), or you can't walk (work) in it. (Eph 2:8-9).

Does Scripture have any authority with you?

One can see what Abraham did and that took an action.

What physical performance (work) did Abraham do in Ge 15:5-6 to be credited/imputed with righteousness?
Hint: Ro 4:1-5.

And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Rm 4:19

He chose not to be weak in faith. He chose to line up his thinking with God. He began praising God choosing not to walk in doubt and unbelieve.

Neither faith nor weakness of faith are physical performances.

 

[John Mullally]

So if no one is deserving, is God unjust if He doesn’t try to save everyone?

God is merciful and makes provision for every man to be saved. God in His Sovereignty, has left somethings up to man. The following is explanatory.

Which does God desire to display more? Mercy or wrath? Ezekiel 18:23 shows that God desires to display His mercy more than His wrath:

Ezekiel 18:23: “‘Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?’”​

Ezekiel 18:23 shows that God's mercy is conditional on something man does - turn from his ways (AKA repent). Note that God does not change the nature of some men, as Calvin asserts, so that they will turn from their sins and live. This is demonstrated a few verses later in Ezekiel 18:30-32 where God says that he will change man's nature if man will repent (same condition as Ezekiel 18:23). If God changing man's nature was required for men to repent, then repentance would not be a condition for God to change man's nature.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

​

Observe the order in Ezekiel 18:30-32:

1. “Repent, Turn from…Cast away…”
2. “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

Concerning "God trying to save everyone": Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world (1 TImothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), though not everyone receives His grace (i.e. Christ's atonement) that He freely offers. God certainly could have forced His grace on everyone, as in a universal Irresistible Grace, but God didn’t choose that. Instead, the gospel is presented as a gift for the asking. While our fallen nature dictates that we did not have a real choice on whether not to sin, we do have a real choice on whether to confess our sin and accept Christ’s gift of salvation. If God changing man's nature was not required to repent in Ezekiel 18, then pre-faith regeneration is not required for man to confess his sin and accept Christ's gift of salvation.

 

[Hammster]

God is merciful and makes provision for every man to be saved. God in His Sovereignty, has left somethings up to man. The following is explanatory.

Which does God desire to display more? Mercy or wrath? Ezekiel 18:23 shows that God desires to display His mercy more than His wrath:

Ezekiel 18:23: “‘Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?’”​

Ezekiel 18:23 shows that God's mercy is conditional on something man does. Note that God does change man's nature of some, as Calvinist assert, so that those will turn from their sins and live. This is demonstrated a few verses later in Ezekiel 18:30-32 where God says that he will change man's nature if man will repent (same condition as Ezekiel 18:23). If God changing man's nature was required for men to repent, then repentance would not be a condition for God to change man's nature.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

​

Observe the order in Ezekiel 18:30:

1. “Repent, Turn from…Cast away…”
2. “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”

Concerning "God trying to save everyone": Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world (1 TImothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), though not everyone receives His grace (i.e. Christ's atonement) that He freely offers. God certainly could have forced His grace on everyone, as in a universal Irresistible Grace, but God didn’t choose that. Instead, the gospel is presented as a gift for the asking. While our fallen nature dictates that we did not have a real choice on whether not to sin, we do have a real choice on whether to confess our sin and accept Christ’s gift of salvation. If God changing man's nature was not required to repent in Ezekiel 18, then it is pre-faith regeneration is not required for man to confess his sin and accept Christ's gift of salvation.

Maybe someone else will answer the question I asked.

 

[Bobber]

Maybe I should be clearer. Why are enemies of God, those who hate Him, deserving of rescue?

Well let's go right back the beginning of YOUR theology and answer the question that way. You believe God did ORDAIN all things to be the way they were. So if they are his enemies (and I'm speaking from the standpoint of your theology) who's fault is that? That would be a reason right there they deserve to be rescued.

Now from my theology I'd say the question isn't do they deserve to be rescued or don't they. The Bible is clear he not willing that any should perish so we don't even have to answer the question. God willing, WILLING to save all, which he is, then he's put a tremendous VALUE on each human being. Does each human being deserve to have such a value put upon them? That's in the realm of God's sovereignty and that being what he wanted to do, who are we or anyone to say God can't?

We do know LOVE itself, even looking upon the human kind does things for others regardless as to whether they deserve it. LOVE does what LOVE does.

 

[Bobber]

In Calvinisim, God creates “yes-men” with an “Irresistible Grace” and they indicate that God cannot get any man to love Him apart from using irresistible-means -

I've wondered at times if Calvinism opens the following door to those who hold it.

If they're struggling with sin how far are they really from blaming God for it. They could claim God has not given me such an irresistible grace so I won't love my sin anymore. Sort of like Adam blaming everyone except himself. The woman you gave me Lord. (the woman's fault and God's fault...but not his)

One can go to Rom 12:12 which states,

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But then that sure sounds a lot like something WE have to do so they default back to a place of saying, NO God must do it all.

 

[Hammster]

Well let's go right back the beginning of YOUR theology and answer the question that way. You believe God did ORDAIN all things to be the way they were. So if they are his enemies (and I'm speaking from the standpoint of your theology) whose fault is that? That would be a reason right there they deserve to be rescued.

Not at all. No sinner deserves to be saved.

Now from my theology I'd say the question isn't do they deserve to be rescued or don't they.

But that was my question, based on your little story.

The Bible is clear he not willing that any should perish so we don't even have to answer the question. God willing, WILLING to save all, which he is, then he's put a tremendous VALUE on each human being.

The Bible doesn’t say that he desires every single human to be saved.

Does each human being deserve to have such a value put upon them? That's in the realm of God's sovereignty and that being what he wanted to do, who are we or anyone to say God can't?

Sinners have no value, being that they are sinners.

We do know LOVE itself, even looking upon the human kind does things for others regardless as to whether they deserve it. LOVE does what LOVE does.

Like sending loved ones to hell for eternity?

 

[Bobber]

Ezekiel 18:23 shows that God's mercy is conditional on something man does - turn from his ways (AKA repent). Note that God does not change the nature of some men, as Calvin asserts, so that they will turn from their sins and live. This is demonstrated a few verses later in Ezekiel 18:30-32 where God says that he will change man's nature if man will repent (same condition as Ezekiel 18:23). If God changing man's nature was required for men to repent, then repentance would not be a condition for God to change man's nature.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

​

Just can't be any more clear that what you've stated.

 

[John Mullally]

The Bible doesn’t say that he desires every single human to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all men to be saved.

1st Timothy 2:1-6 “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”​

​

Similarly, 1st Timothy 4:10 states: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Notice that the term “all men” at 1st Timothy 4:10 means more than just believers, and also notice that the same term also appears at 1st Timothy 2:4. It is simply unreasonable to think that the term “all men” means one thing at 1st Timothy 2:4 and then a completely different thing at 1st Timothy 4:10. Consistency demands that the term “all men” be understood the same. Ultimately, prayers are encouraged indiscriminately for our political leaders, even the bad ones, so that (a) we can live peaceful lives, and (b) since God desires for even them to become saved, as a factor of God desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Charles Spurgeon strongly disagreed with fellow Calvinists concerning the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4:

“What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they,—‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ if he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘all sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the ‘alls’ according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.​

 

[Hammster]

1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires for all men to be saved.

1st Timothy 2:1-6 “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”​

​

Similarly, 1st Timothy 4:10 states: “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.” Notice that the term “all men” at 1st Timothy 4:10 means more than just believers, and also notice that the same term also appears at 1st Timothy 2:4. It is simply unreasonable to think that the term “all men” means one thing at 1st Timothy 2:4 and then a completely different thing at 1st Timothy 4:10. Consistency demands that the term “all men” be understood the same. Ultimately, prayers are encouraged indiscriminately for our political leaders, even the bad ones, so that (a) we can live peaceful lives, and (b) since God desires for even them to become saved, as a factor of God desiring “all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Charles Spurgeon strongly disagreed with fellow Calvinists concerning the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:4: “What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they,—‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ if he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘all sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the ‘alls’ according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.

Ezekiel 36 says He will take a heart of stone and give a heart of flesh. Do you believe He can do this for everyone, or just some?

 

[Bobber]

Not at all. No sinner deserves to be saved.

As I said deserving to isn't a question that needs to be asked with my theology.

Sorry Hammster but with yours I'd say it most certainly does. Your position if you're a Calvinist is God wanted them evil and orchestrated some actions to ensure they'd be the way they were....and then punish them for it????? I'm speaking only again from YOUR theology....I'd say such sinners do deserve to be saved.

I actually think you really do believe they should be too although you might not admit it. If a Dr Frankenstein was creating monsters down the street, making them that way, and he made them with feelings, needing to be loved, and being who would dream and long for good things of life and he made them just to hurt them????? That's why he made them? I'm confident you'd agree such an individual should be locked up. So very, very unloving and so very, very unmerciful.

This is so very far from Jesus, and God in the Bible which says, "Come unto me all you which are heavy laden and I will give you rest!"

Sinners have no value, being that they are sinners.

And this goes against so many, many scriptures'. The prodigal son story being one of them. You can come out and say this isn't a type of a sinner? You can honestly assert the Father didn't consider his sinner son of value? Lk 15

 

[John Mullally]

I've wondered at times if Calvinism opens the following door to those who hold it.

If they're struggling with sin how far are they really from blaming God for it. They could claim God has not given me such an irresistible grace so I won't love my sin anymore. Sort of like Adam blaming everyone except himself. The woman you gave me Lord. (the woman's fault and God's fault...but not his)

One can go to Rom 12:12 which states,

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But then that sure sounds a lot like something WE have to do so they default back to a place of saying, NO God must do it all.

This is my experience - take it with a huge grain of salt: I remember as a new Christian, a good friend tried to lead me to Calvinism and what he said was attractive from the point-of-view of his teaching on eternal security and sin. He said the real me was not sinning - it was my flesh and the real me could not fall away. He also said no one really has a free-will. I just could not get my head or gut (intuition) around all that given what I knew from the Bible and the little non-Calvist Protestant indoctrination I had received. I could not argue the issues.

 

[John Mullally]

Ezekiel 36 says He will take a heart of stone and give a heart of flesh. Do you believe He can do this for everyone, or just some?

I gave you the answer to that in Post 138 and 145. Ezekiel 18:30-32 indicates that God will change the heart of those who repent.

 

[Hammster]

As I said deserving to isn't a question that needs to be asked with my theology.

Yes it is. And it’s somewhat telling that you avoid answering.

 

[Hammster]

And this goes against so many, many scriptures'. The prodigal son story being one of them. You can come out and say this isn't a type of a sinner? You can honestly assert the Father didn't consider his sinner son of value? Lk 15

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
— Psalm 5:5

The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
— Psalm 11:5

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
— Matthew 7:23

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
— Matthew 7:23

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
— Matthew 25:41

 

[Hammster]

I gave you the answer to that in Post 138 and 145. Ezekiel 18:30-32 indicates that God will change the heart of those who repent.

Interesting. It doesn’t say that in chapter 36. It could be because Israel couldn’t actually do it. But, you seem to prefer the merit system where the unregenerate can actually please God. So okay.

 

[John Mullally]

Interesting. It doesn’t say that in chapter 36. It could be because Israel couldn’t actually do it. But, you seem to prefer the merit system where the unregenerate can actually please God. So okay.

Regeneration follows repentance. Since per Ezekiel 18:30-32 repentance is first required before God will give a person a new heart and a new spirit, the debate is over and Calvinism loses.

Calvinists have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of works and faith. “Works” speak of our own merit, while faith in someone else to save us, speaks of the merit of the one in whom we are placing our trust. So, when we place our faith in Christ, we are not adding to our own merits. We are not building up our own value. Faith in Christ, instead, points to someone else’s merits, who saves us solely by His choice to show grace toward anyone who puts their trust in Him.

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works: From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—even as little as a person’s submission in passive non-resistance—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. As such, Calvinists insist that if God had not chosen some—namely Calvinism’s elect—then no one would have freely chosen to love God. Calvinists also deny that God coerces any person to believe or that God believes on behalf of the elect, even though Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”

 

[Mark Quayle]

What do you mean MERCY. These of course are packaged answers given by Calvinist that you say them and expect people should just rally behind the wonderful sounding statement.

So tell me. According to Calvinism. You have 10 sinners. According to you as a Calvinist it takes what you call IRRESITIBLE grace to be imparted to all of them for any of them to be saved. So he's willing to impart that to 3 of them but not the other 7. So if it's these people in the water that need to be rescued so he has the ability to rescue all of them by his imparting in them what you say he must impart but doesn't do it. He lets the majority of them drown when he didn't need to ???

Excuse me? Ok, maybe when you said, "According to you as a Calvinist it takes what you call IRRESITIBLE grace to be imparted to all of them for any of them to be saved.", maybe you only meant "...what you call Irresistible Grace to be imparted to any of them for that one to be saved" because if you meant it the way you wrote it, it makes no sense, nor do Calvinists nor Reformed claim such a fool thing.

It's curious to me how I, as I call myself Reformed, end up defending Calvinism by name against those who have a problem with the theology —I don't care what it is called, but I don't like misrepresentations and the mocking tone or worse proffered to anyone for what they are said to believe, if they don't believe it.

But to your allegory, NONE of them fell in the water. They didn't even jump in. They were born in it and love it. Throw them a life-preserver and they will ignore it or push it away, and dive deeper down. They don't know they need air.

No, it's worse than even that. They are 6 feet underground. Now throw them a life preserver!

God takes those of the dead and raises them to new life in him, by his Holy Spirit. God does this. Choice has nothing to say about it, except to gladly accept the fact that he did that, and willingly submit to him, once it is able.

So how can you use such wonderful sounding words that he saves the 3 to display his MERCY. He would NOT be looked upon as merciful and by the law of the sea he'd be brought up on charges. You yourself I highly doubt would be standing behind a statement Look at what a merciful person he was. For the rest of that man's life he'd be seeking to live down the shame he brought upon himself.

Would you call it shame if he condemned and punished the whole lot of us? He had mercy on some. Are you going to condemn him for being generous with what is his to give?

Most likely you don't have any idea that you sound like the other Arminians that claim such things. WHY in the world, would you think he should be judged according to your notions of mercy and love? "Who are you, oh man?" Read Romans 9 again. God is not like us.

Have you no idea, after all this time looking at his Word, that he made us for HIS purposes and not ours? Be thankful that in his loving mercy he included us in his plans instead of leaving us to forever paying for our infinite sins against him. We did not deserve it.

 

[Hammster]

Regeneration follows repentance. Since per Ezekiel 18:30-32 repentance is first required before God will give a person a new heart and a new spirit, the debate is over and Calvinism loses.

Calvinists have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of works and faith. “Works” speak of our own merit, while faith in someone else to save us, speaks of the merit of the one in whom we are placing our trust. So, when we place our faith in Christ, we are not adding to our own merits. We are not building up our own value. Faith in Christ, instead, points to someone else’s merits, who saves us solely by His choice to show grace toward anyone who puts their trust in Him.

Calvinists conflate Faith with Works: From the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—even as little as a person’s submission in passive non-resistance—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works. As such, Calvinists insist that if God had not chosen some—namely Calvinism’s elect—then no one would have freely chosen to love God. Calvinists also deny that God coerces any person to believe or that God believes on behalf of the elect, even though Calvinists admit that they believe that God unilaterally regenerates the unregenerate-elect against their totally depraved will, unsolicited, simply because they happen to be “elect.”

I’ll ask a question that I asked in a different thread. I think we can agree that those in the Spirit are those who are regenerate. And we know from Romans 8 that those in the Spirit can please God, yet those in the flesh cannot. So are you in the Spirit or flesh when you repent?

 

[Bobber]

Yes it is. And it’s somewhat telling that you avoid answering.

And Jesus didn't always answer questions in the way some people demanded either. Matt 22:15

 

[Hammster]

And Jesus didn't always answer questions in the way some people demanded either. Matt 22:15

True. But you’re the OP.

I get it though.