Embracing New Covenant Theology as Your Only Means of Salvation

[Clare73]

The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God.
Obedience; the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead, and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.
That is why its called obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16-17
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:7
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17
Do you understand how to obey the Gospel?

Gospel: Mk 1:15.

Believe in and trust on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sin.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Rom 11 says "God is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

IT also says "you stand by your faith.. you should fear for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's mercy and goodness IF you continue"

There was a specific hardening of those particular Jews who, despite Jesus having been performing miracles proving himself right before their eyes, would still not believe: "The Jews [i.e., the leaders of the Jews] then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the (Messiah), tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe; the [miracles] that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.'" John 10:24-27

And so: "Though He had performed so many signs before them, yet [most of the leaders of the Jews] were not believing Him... [And because they would not believe Him] they could [never] believe, for Isaiah said again, 'He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.'" John 12:37-40. The Jewish leadership did not "recognize the time of (their) visitation," Luke 19:44, because they did not want to lose their positions of power and places of honor.

That is the hardening of Romans 11:7-10. God still held out the possibility to even those who saw but would not believe during that generation, and Paul wished those branches might even be grafted back in again.

But there is a "mystery" (something previously unheard of but now revealed) of a "partial hardening" of Israel that continues for that people group from that time "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in," Romans 11:25-30. That is the partial hardening of the Jews of Judaism of the last two millennia, which hardening is removed when "the Deliverer will come (to) Zion, (when) He will remove ungodliness from Jacob," Romans 11:26, for the "times of the Gentiles" is completed when the Son of Man returns to earth in His "great glory," Luke 21:24-27.

That partial hardening of Israel -- the Jews of Judaism -- by God is done for two God-reasons: 1) "their rejection is the reconciliation of the world" (i.e., the gospel goes out to the whole world) (Romans 11:11-15), and 2) so God may fulfill all the promises He made to national Israel, restoration to the Land, building of the Temple, setting His King upon the throne of David to rule all the nations of the earth in righteousness and peace, for "from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the [promises made to their] fathers," (Romans 11:28).

That is why Paul commands us Gentile Christians not to be arrogant to the natural branches of the Olive Tree, the Jews of Judaism. They remain under the veil of the old covenant, just as Moses was in his day.

 

[Clare73]

True - we see that covenant in both Jer 31 and in Heb 8.

true

True. It was fully active in the OT as we see in the case of Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration

Previously Biblically demonstrated to the contrary that the New Covenant was not active in the OT.

with Christ in glory before the cross had happened - but it was not ratified in blood until the death of Christ on the cross.

Moses and Elijah could not be immortal , in glory, in heaven , in God's presence with "unforgiven sin". They were fully forgiven.
They were under the NEW Covenant and fully forgiven even though it had not yet been ratified in blood.

Again. . .that is explained in Ro 3:25. . .they were not under it yet, it was done in anticipation of their being under it.
No one came under it until Jesus ratified it with his blood.

Romans 4 says "God counts those things that are not as though they are" -- Rom 4:17 "a father of many nations HAVE I MADE you" (as if done already in the past) is a statement spoken to Abraham while as yet he had not one nation.

None of which authorizes its application to the New Covenant.

 

[Clare73]

Yikes. Well, I suppose Jesus was wrong then: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you [Jews of Judaism], do and observe..." -- Jesus

But you are correct, that Judaism is comprised of the law of Moses (and yes, mixed with some traditions of man, kind of like you'd find in Christianity throughout its history even up to today -- uh-oh, does that mean "Christianity is not from God"?). So the question is, did God command the descendants of Israel, to the exclusion of all other peoples on earth, to obey the law of Moses, or not? Well the bible says yes: "You shall... obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments [of the law of Moses] which I command you today." -- Deuteronomy 30:8

Is God going to restore national Israel to worshipping under the Temple and the sacrifices of the Law of Moses? The prophets say yes: "'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion... I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth... Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they will be My people, and I will be their God... The fast of the fourth, the fast of the fifth, the fast of the seventh and the fast of tenth months [the times of mourning over the various desecrations of the Temple] will become joy, gladness, and cheerful feasts for the house of Judah... So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord... In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" -- Zechariah 8

Why will those days of mourning be turned to joy and gladness?

That was fulfilled in the return from exile under Ezra and Nehemiah, where the walls were rebuilt, the Temple was rebuilt, Jerusalem was restored, and the people rededicated themselves to God with rejoicing that could be heard far away (Ne 12:43).

There is no second fulfillment taught in Scripture.

 

[Clare73]

In Lev 18 we see examples of laws in the Law of Moses being ignored by pagan nations around Israel - and then God wiping out those pagan nations for doing it. God held them accountable.

So then even Christians today - are not to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

Love of God is the law of Christ (Ro 13:8-10), and it will keep one from taking God's name in vain.

 

[Clare73]

Rom 11 says "God is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

IT also says "you stand by your faith.. you should fear for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's mercy and goodness IF you continue"

How does that affect/alter Ro 11:23?

 

[Jeffrey A]

I quoted Zechariah 8, in which the Prophet declared, "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,... I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain."

That was fulfilled in the return from exile under Ezra and Nehemiah, where the walls were rebuilt, the Temple was rebuilt, Jerusalem was restored, and the people rededicated themselves to God with rejoicing that could be heard far away (Ne 12:43).

So, the Lord returned to Zion and dwelt in its midst so that Jerusalem was called "the City of Truth" after they returned from Babylon?

There is no second fulfillment taught in Scripture.

What about this? -- "Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you [Israel] will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured... Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley... Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!... And the Lord will be king over all the earth... and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security... Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them... It will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths... Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them." -- Zechariah 14

 

[Jeffrey A]

In Lev 18 we see examples of laws in the Law of Moses being ignored by pagan nations around Israel - and then God wiping out those pagan nations for doing it. God held them accountable.

So then even Christians today - are not to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

Only the House of Israel is under the Law of Moses, while everyone is under the Law of Moral Conscience, and so all will be judged by whatever law they are under.

Paul explained it: "For all who have sinned without the Law [of Moses] will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law... For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them on the day when... God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." -- Romans 2:12-16

Christians today, however, are under the Law of Christ: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law [of Moses], as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without (the) Law, as without (the) Law, though not being without the Law of God but under the Law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without (the) Law [of Moses]." 1 Corinthians 9:20,21

Why did Paul, a Jew, say he himself was not under the Law of Moses? Because "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law... There is neither Jew nor Greek... for you are all one in Christ Jesus," Galatians 3:13,28

God judges each person against the Law they are under: Law of Innocence, Law of Moral Conscience, Law of Noah, Law of Moses, or the Law of Christ. No one can escape being under law. It's just a matter of which law one is judged by.

Taking God's name in vain is a violation of the law of moral conscience, the Law of Noah, the Law of Moses, and the Law of Christ. That a Christian is judged by that standard does not place that Christian under the Law of Moses. Only the House of Israel is under the Law of Moses. So says Paul.

 

[Clare73]

I quoted Zechariah 8, in which the Prophet declared, "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion,... I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain."

So, the Lord returned to Zion and dwelt in its midst so that Jerusalem was called "the City of Truth" after they returned from Babylon?

When you understand its about the coming of Messiah where the current local scene becomes the metaphor for the universal, eschatological picture, chp 8 being the salvation of God's people, the one olive tree of the church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11).

 

[Jeffrey A]

To my quote of Zechariah 14....

When you understand its about the coming of Messiah where the current local scene becomes the metaphor for the universal, eschatological picture, chp 8 being the salvation of God's people, the one olive tree of the church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11).

Don't you mean, when you deny it's about the coming of Messiah in power and glory to be King over all the earth to rule in righteousness and peace?

So, in your view, Jesus is not coming back?

 

[Jeffrey A]

Heb 10 says all animal sacrifice laws regarding offerings and sacrifice for sin - end at the cross.

For those under Christ. Paul says there are those who remain under the veil of the Law Covenant (because of the partial hardening of God) until the times of the Gentiles are completed. Then the Law Covenant will be replaced by the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 when Messiah returns in power and glory. And the animal sacrifices will be restored and continue during the Millennial Kingdom under that King of kings, the High Priest. So says Ezekiel the Prophet.

 

[Clare73]

To my quote of Zechariah 14....


Don't you mean, when you deny it's about the coming of Messiah in power and glory to be King over all the earth to rule in righteousness and peace?

So, in your view, Jesus is not coming back?

Well, if you change my meaning, you will have to tell me what I mean.

 

[Clare73]

For those under Christ. Paul says there are those who remain under the veil of the Law Covenant

"Remaining under the veil of the law" (2Co 3:13-14) means being unable to see the temporary and inadequate character of the Old Covenant, as they were unable to see the fading of the glory on Moses' face because of the veil covering his face.

The Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13), no one is under the Old Covenant for it doesn't exist any more.
Unbelieving Jews are not under the Old Covenant.

Anything else in your theology which rests on this notion is contra-NT authoritative apostolic teaching.

(because of the partial hardening of God) until the times of the Gentiles are completed. Then the Law Covenant will be replaced by the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 when Messiah returns in power and glory. And the animal sacrifices will be restored and continue during the Millennial Kingdom under that King of kings, the High Priest. So says Ezekiel the Prophet.

All contrary to NT authoritative apostolic teaching.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Heb 10 says all animal sacrifice laws regarding offerings and sacrifice for sin - end at the cross.

For those under Christ.

True - non-Christians would not pay any attention at all to the NT

 

[BobRyan]

Only the House of Israel is under the Law of Moses, while everyone is under the Law of Moral Conscience,

There is no "moral conscience" statement in all of scripture.

I agree that only the Jews were under the ceremonial law - but when I say that gentiles are not to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 it is because I do not consider the Ten Commandments to be "ceremonial".

The Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 also note this distinction between ceremonial law and moral law even though both are given in the Law of Moses.

 

[Jeffrey A]

I quoted Zechariah 14, who prophesied the coming of the King in power and glory to rule over the earth and preside over the rebuilt Temple...

When you understand its about the coming of Messiah where the current local scene becomes the metaphor for the universal, eschatological picture, chp 8 being the salvation of God's people, the one olive tree of the church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11).

To which I replied, "Don't you mean, when you deny it's about the coming of Messiah in power and glory to be King over all the earth to rule in righteousness and peace?

Well, if you change my meaning, you will have to tell me what I mean.

Well, that's good to know you do not deny that the coming of Messiah in power and glory is to be King over all the earth to rule in righteousness and peace. I was worried there for a sec.

 

[Jeffrey A]

There is no "moral conscience" statement in all of scripture.

So the law of conscience Paul stated in scripture has no relevance to morality?

I agree that only the Jews were under the ceremonial law - but when I say that gentiles are not to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 it is because I do not consider the Ten Commandments to be "ceremonial".

There is no "ceremonial law" statement in all of scripture.

The Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 also note this distinction between ceremonial law and moral law even though both are given in the Law of Moses.

So?

Paul said every man under Law is under obligation to keep "the whole Law." Galatians 5:3 You don't get to pick and choose.

 

[BobRyan]

So the law of conscience Paul stated in scripture has no relevance to morality?

Romans 2 says that people with no access to the Bible at all still have a conscience.

But your statement did not specify "just for those who have no Bible" and everyone here that are gentiles ... also have Bibles.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
I agree that only the Jews were under the ceremonial law - but when I say that gentiles are not to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 it is because I do not consider the Ten Commandments to be "ceremonial".

There is no "ceremonial law" statement in all of scripture.

1 Cor 7:19 contrasts ceremonial law with the "Commandments of God" -- ending with "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Heb 10 declares the end of ceremonial animal sacrifice laws at the cross - but does not also say that after the cross it is ok to take God's name in vain.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said every man under Law is under obligation to keep "the whole Law." Galatians 5:3 You don't get to pick and choose.

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God " 1 Cor 7:19
Paul says "do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
Paul said in Rom 8 that it is only the lost that "do not submit the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
Paul lists a number of commandment-breaking actions in 1 Cor 6 - and declares to the Christian church that they "be not deceived" into thinking that people who do such things go to heaven.

No wonder Paul reminds us in Heb 8 that the NEW Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart.