Embracing New Covenant Theology as Your Only Means of Salvation

[Jeffrey A]

Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God " 1 Cor 7:19
Paul says "do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
Paul said in Rom 8 that it is only the lost that "do not submit the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"
Paul lists a number of commandment-breaking actions in 1 Cor 6 - and declares to the Christian church that they "be not deceived" into thinking that people who do such things go to heaven.

No wonder Paul reminds us in Heb 8 that the NEW Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart.

Isn't the "LAW of God" the same thing as the Law of Christ? And isn't the Law of Christ "commandments of God"? Aren't Christian Jews free from the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ? Aren't we saying the same thing?

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't the "LAW of God" the same thing as the Law of Christ? And isn't the Law of Christ "commandments of God"? Aren't Christian Jews free from the Law of Moses,

Let's see how Christ states it.. in Mark 7

Mark 7:
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Christ says "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" in the example above

In Matt 19 Jesus said "Keep the commandments" and is asked "which ones" at which point Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses In Ex 20 and in Lev 19:18.

 

[JLB777]

Gospel: Mk 1:15.

Believe in and trust on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sin.

Do you understand the biblical word “Believe” means Obey. That’s why believe and obey are used interchangeably.


Example:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


Unbelief is Disobedience.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Here is the group of people that will receive eternal salvation; those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you understand the biblical word “Believe” means Obey. That’s why believe and obey are used interchangeably.


Example:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


Unbelief is Disobedience.


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Here is the group of people that will receive eternal salvation; those who obey Jesus Christ as Lord.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9





JLB

If belief and obedience are one and the same thing, interchangeable, then, if you are right in saying, "The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God. Obedience; the obedience of faith.", those who say that it is not to be boasted of that they believed, trusted, accepted Christ, and as a consequence of that faith, were saved, are wrong —it IS by works, and man can boast.

Let me shorten that up a bit, for clarity. If faith and obedience mean the same thing, and are a work, then the freewillers are wrong that faith and repentance come before regeneration, in that they do have whereof to boast.

All along they have been insisting that that step of faith is not a work, even though it is produced before regeneration.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Let's see how Christ states it.. in Mark 7:
7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Christ says "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" in the example above

In Matt 19 Jesus said "Keep the commandments" and is asked "which ones" at which point Jesus quotes exclusively from the Law of Moses In Ex 20 and in Lev 19:18.

In verse 7, who is "they"? It is the Pharisees and the scribes of Jesus' day (vs 5), the leadership of the Jews. But that does not mean Judaism is "not from God." Judaism is obeying the Law of Moses, the commandment of God, the Word of God, as best a Jew can, while the Temple is not yet rebuilt. There are no more Pharisees. Just humble rabbis and their local congregations, trying to keep the commandments and stand morally upright.

But for Gentiles, Paul made clear, we are "without the Law" of Moses -- outside of, excluded from. It was never given to us. We are under the Law of Christ, free from the restrictions and constraints of the Law of Moses. And for those Gentiles before and not yet under the Law of Christ, they are under the Law of Conscience, which came upon mankind in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the Knowledge of the Difference Between Good and Evil (i.e., moral conscience = the knowledge of the difference between good and evil). That there are overlapping moral equivalents between those three Laws (Conscience/Moses/Christ) does not make them the same Law.

This is why Paul gave instructions in Romans 14 that "the faith which you have [under the Law of Christ], have as your own conviction before God."

 

[Clare73]

Do you understand the biblical word “Believe” means Obey. That’s why believe and obey are used interchangeably.

I do. . .your point?

Obedience always accompanies true faith, but it is not the obedience of that faith which saves,
It is the faith only, not faith's necessary works, which save (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Jeffrey A]

(sorry I hadn't replied directly to this post of yours at the time)

You quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34, as quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12, then stated:

We see in that covenant ;
1. the new heart, new birth, new creation
2 forgiveness of sins
3. adoption

There is not one other covenant in all of scripture that competes with it.

To which I replied, sure there is, the new covenant in Jesus' blood. But it's not a competition. You replied:

If you splice them up into bits - then the 'New Covenant in my blood" stands alone and is excluded from the "New Covenant" as scripture records it in both Jer 31 and Hebrews 8.

No one is splicing them into bits. I am discerning they are two different covenants with their own set of promises directed to two different named parties to take effect at two different times. That's the plain reading of the two covenants. Obviously.

IN that case your "other" New Covenant and has no forgiveness of sins, no new birth, no new creation, no new heart, no adoption. It is just 'the New Covenant in my blood". period.

Uh, all those blessings you list are explicitly defined in the NT as coming by way of the new covenant in Jesus' blood, apart from Jeremiah 31 -- 1) forgiveness of sins: "In (Christ) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins," Colossians 1:14; 2) new birth: "God...has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1 Peter 1:3, 3) new creation: "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature," 2 Corinthians 5:17; 4) new heart: "refresh my heart in Christ," Philemon 1:20; 5) adoption: "(God) predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself," Ephesians 1:5.

The entire New Testament (aka New Covenant) writings are filled with descriptions and revelations of the blessings that come through Abraham's Covenant of Blessings on All the Nations Through His Promised Seed Heir Jesus Christ, aka, the New Covenant, aka, the Better Covenant.

But if you allow it to stand in context where it is adding more detail the explicitly stated "New Covenant" of Jer 31:31-34 (which is the context Jesus' hearers would have had for that term at the time He spoke it) - then it is shedding more light on the one-and-only New Covenant. Which would look a lot like "another gospel".

Not sure what you mean by "Jesus' hearers... at the time He spoke it," but nevertheless, there is not "another gospel." I don't know why you keep saying that. There is one gospel, as we both agree there is, and it comes through the Abrahamic Covenant of Blessings Come to the Nations Through the Promised Seed Heir Jesus Christ By His Shed Blood, as read at Genesis 12:3, Genesis 17:2-7, Genesis 22:16-18, Isaiah 55:1-9, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25 ("This cup is the new covenant in My blood"), Galatians 3:6-18 ("Christ... (became) a curse for us... in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles....(by) a covenant previously ratified by God"); Hebrews 7:22 ("Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant"), and Hebrews 8:6 ("He is... the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises").

That Israel gets some blessings in the kingdom through a New Covenant that replaces the Mosaic Law Covenant, by God placing that Law within their hearts, doesn't change any of the blessings that come through the Better Covenant in Jesus' Blood.

After all, that Ishmael was promised to be blessed, to be fruitful, to become the father of twelve princes, to be made into a great nation, does not mean that Isaac's promises for the exact same things were thereby nullified, no more than when the Law Covenant came that the Covenant of Blessing on all the nations through Abraham's Promised Seed Heir would be nullified.

God is free to make a covenant with the House of Israel exclusively if he wants, and that covenant in no way nullifies the promises of another covenant He makes that enures to the benefit of the whole world.

 

[JLB777]

If belief and obedience are one and the same thing, interchangeable, then, if you are right in saying, "The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God. Obedience; the obedience of faith.", those who say that it is not to be boasted of that they believed, trusted, accepted Christ, and as a consequence of that faith, were saved, are wrong —it IS by works, and man can boast.

It’s not by “works” , (works of the law, the wrk that earns a wage, or good works) by grace through faith; the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is both dead and incomplete, and therefore does not junction, even as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and therefore does not function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

The works Abraham did, was to offer his son Isaac on the altar, in direct response to God speaking to him to do so.

Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage
Not good works

But the “work” or action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

• faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Again the “work” that Abraham did was to obey; obey the command to offer his son Isaac on the altar. This action of obedience (the obedience of faith) is what faith must have to be complete (perfect) and thus be able to function in order to produce the intended divine result of justification.


In the same way, we must believe and therefore obey the Gospel command to REPENT, in order to be saved.


Believing without obeying is what demons do; demonic believing results in dead faith.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26





JLB

 

[JLB777]

Obedience always accompanies true faith, but it is not the obedience of that faith which saves,
It is the faith only, not faith's necessary works, which save (Eph 2:8-9).

Without the obedience of faith, no one will be saved, which is why grace is given or imparted to us along with faith, when God speaks to us.


Grace is the God given divine ability, given to us (unmerited) that enables or empowers us to do, what we ourselves can not do on our own.

• Grace is the power to obey what we hear God say to us, by which we receive faith.

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29


Grace teaches us:

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11




JLB

 

[Mark Quayle]

It’s not by “works” , (works of the law, the wrk that earns a wage, or good works) by grace through faith; the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is both dead and incomplete, and therefore does not junction, even as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and therefore does not function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

The works Abraham did, was to offer his son Isaac on the altar, in direct response to God speaking to him to do so.

Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage
Not good works

But the “work” or action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

• faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Again the “work” that Abraham did was to obey; obey the command to offer his son Isaac on the altar. This action of obedience (the obedience of faith) is what faith must have to be complete (perfect) and thus be able to function in order to produce the intended divine result of justification.


In the same way, we must believe and therefore obey the Gospel command to REPENT, in order to be saved.


Believing without obeying is what demons do; demonic believing results in dead faith.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26





JLB

Maybe I'm not understanding you here, to say that you did not understand my statement. I am most definitely not saying faith is a work.

But YOU said, in post #161,
"The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God.
Obedience; the obedience of faith." Did you not there call the obedience of faith a work?

Here you apparently think it is only a sort of work, not being a work of the law, and I expect that is why you put the quotes around it in #161. But whether it is a work of the law or not, you still called it a work, no? And if salvation is by grace through faith, where is the place for that 'work'? Grace and works as means of salvation are mutually exclusive. (No, I'm not saying that no works are necessary as a result of regeneration, that they do not contribute to Grace, nor to the effectiveness of Faith.) Salvation, grace, regeneration, faith, are none of them the work of man, but of the Spirit of God.

 

[Clare73]

Without the obedience of faith, no one will be saved,

The obedience, while necessary for faith to be genuine, does not save (Eph 2:8-9).

Only the faith saves. . .and justifies (Rom 3:28).

You either believe these Scriptures, or you don't. . .I do.

 

[JLB777]

Maybe I'm not understanding you here, to say that you did not understand my statement. I am most definitely not saying faith is a work.

But YOU said, in post #161,
"The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God.
Obedience; the obedience of faith." Did you not there call the obedience of faith a work?

Here you apparently think it is only a sort of work, not being a work of the law, and I expect that is why you put the quotes around it in #161. But whether it is a work of the law or not, you still called it a work, no? And if salvation is by grace through faith, where is the place for that 'work'? Grace and works as means of salvation are mutually exclusive. (No, I'm not saying that no works are necessary as a result of regeneration, that they do not contribute to Grace, nor to the effectiveness of Faith.) Salvation, grace, regeneration, faith, are none of them the work of man, but of the Spirit of God.

Did you not there call the obedience of faith a work?

What would you call the action or effort that obedience requires?

The corresponding action that faith required of Noah was the “work” or effort to move with godly fear for 120 years to build the Ark.

Faith operates by a law, or principle.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

It’s called the “the law of faith”. In fact this principle or law of faith is described by Paul in the book of Romans as the obedience of faith, and frames the entire book of Romans with this principal.

The term obedience of faith begins and ends the book of Romans.


As I said before, …
Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is both dead and incomplete, and therefore does not junction, even as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and therefore does not function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

The works Abraham did, was to offer his son Isaac on the altar, in direct response to God speaking to him to do so.

Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage
Not good works

But the “work” or action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


Do you agree that Abraham was justified by “works”; the work of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?



JLB

 

[JLB777]

The obedience, while necessary for faith to be genuine, does not save (Eph 2:8-9).

Only the faith saves. . .and justifies (Rom 3:28).

You either believe these Scriptures, or you don't. . .I do.

So the obedience of confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, in response to the Gospel command “repent” is not necessary?

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Aren't Christian Jews free from the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ?

Yes! Amen.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

The obedience, while necessary for faith to be genuine, does not save (Eph 2:8-9).

Only the faith saves. . .and justifies (Rom 3:28).

You either believe these Scriptures, or you don't. . .I do.

You didn’t post any scriptures for me to believe… only your opinion.


A scripture reference (address) is not the scripture itself.


Example of a scripture:


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21


Here is the question I have for you or anyone else in the world.


Was Abraham justified by:

1. The works of the law
2. The work that earns a wage?
3. Good works?
4. The work of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

JLB

 

[Clare73]

You didn’t post any scriptures for me to believe… only your opinion.

A scripture reference (address) is not the scripture itself.

Are you unable to look up that Scripture?

Example of a scripture:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Here is the question I have for you or anyone else in the world.

Was Abraham justified by:
1. The works of the law
2. The work that earns a wage?
3. Good works?
4. The work of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

None of the above. . .The Scriptures state that Abraham was justified in Ge 15:6, when he believed. . .long before James' letter was ever written.
See Romans 4:2-3 (Abraham believed. . .and it was credited/imputed to him as righteousness).

James and Paul are occupied with two different issues in justification.
Paul assumes genuine faith when he speaks of faith, while James is concerned with proof the faith is genuine.

1) Paul is concerned with the contrast between faith and unbelief.
James is concerned with genuine and false faith.

2) Paul is dealing with Ge 15:6 (belief), which was when Abraham was justified (Ge 15:6).
James is dealing with Ge 22:18 (obedience, proof of belief), about 20 years after Abraham was justified.

3) Paul is dealing with a right relationship with God, that the ungodly can be justified by faith (Ro 4:5).
James is dealing with right conduct, that only the right-doer is justified (i.e., one whose faith is genuine).

 

[Clare73]

So the obedience of confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, in response to the Gospel command “repent” is not necessary?

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Obedience is necessary for faith to be genuine, but that necessary obedience does not save (Eph 2:8-9).
However, obedience in the Holy Spirit does work to sanctification (Ro 6:16, 19).

But there must be nothing in salvation for which man can possibly boast (Ro 3:27, 4:2; 1Co 1:29; Eph 2:9), for
Salvation is the Lord's! (Rev 7:10), his and his alone!

 

[Mark Quayle]

What would you call the action or effort that obedience requires?

The corresponding action that faith required of Noah was the “work” or effort to move with godly fear for 120 years to build the Ark.

Faith operates by a law, or principle.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

It’s called the “the law of faith”. In fact this principle or law of faith is described by Paul in the book of Romans as the obedience of faith, and frames the entire book of Romans with this principal.

The term obedience of faith begins and ends the book of Romans.


As I said before, …
Faith without the corresponding act of obedience is both dead and incomplete, and therefore does not junction, even as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete and therefore does not function.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22

The works Abraham did, was to offer his son Isaac on the altar, in direct response to God speaking to him to do so.

Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage
Not good works

But the “work” or action of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


Do you agree that Abraham was justified by “works”; the work of obedience to offer his son Isaac on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?



JLB

If I understand you correctly, then, according to you, the 'choice to believe' is not what saves, so Arminians are wrong.

 

[JLB777]

Obedience is necessary for faith to be genuine, but that necessary obedience does not save (Eph 2:8-9).
However, obedience in the Holy Spirit does work to sanctification (Ro 6:16, 19).

But there must be nothing in salvation for which man can possibly boast (Ro 3:27, 4:2; 1Co 1:29; Eph 2:9), for
Salvation is the Lord's! (Rev 7:10), his and his alone!

Sorry but only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:17


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


That is why it’s called the obedience of faith.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9






JLB

 

[JLB777]

If I understand you correctly, then, according to you, the 'choice to believe' is not what saves, so Arminians are wrong.

I don’t anything about “Arminians”.

It’s not according me, but what the Spirit has inspired in the scriptures.


Only those who choose to obey the truth, will be saved.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:6-8






JLB