Embracing New Covenant Theology as Your Only Means of Salvation

[JLB777]

None of the above Biblically demonsrates that the OT saints saw God the Son.
That is your conjecture only.

So you believe the Angel of the Lord was God the Father, not God the Son?

 

[JLB777]

No you won't find Moses law in Genesis. It was a covenant mediated by Moses 430 later.
Statutes and Judgements to keep and do...
Deut 5:1
1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep … : Heb. keep to do them }
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

The Lord Jesus Christ, made one Covenant with Abraham.


We are grafted into that Covenant in Christ.

The New Covenant is the “Refreshed” Abrahamic Covenant.




JLB

 

[JLB777]

Yes, we agree that the "better" covenant is the "new covenant" of Christ inaugurated in his blood (it was ratified 430 years before the Law Covenant according to Paul at Galatians 3), the sign of which he instituted at Luke 22:20. Where we disagree is at Jeremiah 31. That Covenant replaces the Law Covenant, but only in the respect that God places the Law of Moses within the hearts of the House of Israel and Judah so that they never forsake the Law of Moses again, which he does at the time of the kingdom. That's what those words say and mean.

I agree with much of what you say, however the law of Moses was temporarily added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed, the Messiah, should come.

The Messiah has come, therefore the law has been abolished in His flesh, having been nailed to the cross, in which it was taken out of the way.

The law and commandments that are in our hearts and mind is the law of Christ, that were given to Abraham by faith (directly from the Lord to Abraham) in which Abraham obeyed; 430 years before the law of Moses.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

• because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

The reason Abraham was able to walk in obedience to His laws and commandments is, He obeyed His voice to - walk before Me… (walk with Me in My presence)

This is the same charge we have today: walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.




JLB

 

[Clare73]

No one has seen God (the Father) at any time (the time written in John).

Jesus has declared the Father; as He said “if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”.


The Point:

When the Lord appeared to those Old Testament saints, it was God the Son, Jesus Christ, before He became flesh, not God the Father.




JLB

Non-responsive to my point.

 

[Clare73]

So you believe the Angel of the Lord was God the Father, not God the Son?

I believe the text, it was an angel.

 

[Clare73]

The Lord Jesus Christ, made one Covenant with Abraham.
We are grafted into that Covenant in Christ.
The New Covenant is the “Refreshed” Abrahamic Covenant.

Not according to authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

The Abrahamic Covenant of Ge 17:4-9 was conditioned on total consecration to the Lord as his people, symbolized by the works of cutting off the flesh (Col 2:11) in circumcision, and which was required to be in the covenant of Abraham.

The New Covenant of Lk 22:20; 1Co 11:25 is unconditional, no physical performance of works required, based on faith only--not by faith's works (Eph 2:8-9); i. e., not by physical performance.

The unconditional (on physical performance) New Covenant of Lk 22:20; 1Co 11:25 is not a "renewal" of the conditional Abrahamic Covenant of Ge 17:4-9.

That is not orthodox Christianity.
Personal misinterpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) is yielding contra-NT apostolic teaching.

In order not to be incorrect, personal interpretation of prophetic riddles must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
The word of God does not contradict itself.

 

[Jeffrey A]

I agree with much of what you say, however the law of Moses was temporarily added to the Abrahamic Covenant until the Seed, the Messiah, should come. The Messiah has come, therefore the law has been abolished in His flesh, having been nailed to the cross, in which it was taken out of the way.

...for those who affirm that the man Jesus is that Messiah. But for the Jew of Judaism, God has "partially hardened" (Romans 11:25) them to that gospel of who their Messiah is (and will be), because "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable," (Romans 11:29). That hardening serves two purposes: 1) "By their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles" (Romans 11:11) and 2) so that God may fulfill all the promises he made to them, including the covenant of Jeremiah 31: "This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins. (So) from the standpoint of the gospel they (seem like) enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers..." (Romans 11:27,28).

In the meantime, there are two covenants in action, per Paul: "Their minds were hardened [by God -- Romans 11:25]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in (the revealed) Christ," 2 Corinthians 3:14.

When is that veil removed for the descendants of Israel who remain under the veil of the law covenant? At the second coming -- "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as on mourns for an only son," Zechariah 12:10. When will that be? In the "day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... (when he) will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem... In (the) day a fountain (is) opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity... (When) one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'... In that day... the Lord will be king over all the earth..." Zechariah 12:8-9; 13:1,6; 14:9

That is when God makes a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, when he puts the law in their hearts so they never forsake him again. And it is why we are not to be arrogant towards the natural branches, the Jews of Judaism (Romans 11:25).

 

[BobRyan]

It's not about Moses and Elijah, it's about apostasy from the NT gospel by these newly-professing Hebrew Christians (see Hebrews 6:4-6).

Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross even happens - is proof that the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 was fully effective before the cross just as it was after the cross. It is the "one Gospel" preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 -- as well as to all OT saints. Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also". God does not change.

 

[BobRyan]

...for those who affirm that the man Jesus is that Messiah. But for the Jew of Judaism, God has "partially hardened" (Romans 11:25) them to that gospel of who their Messiah is (and will be), because "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable," (Romans 11:29).

Rom 11 says "God is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

IT also says "you stand by your faith.. you should fear for if God did not spare them he may not spare you either... to you God's mercy and goodness IF you continue"

 

[Clare73]

Moses and Elijah standing with Christ in Matt 17 before the cross even happens - is proof that the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 was fully effective before the cross

We have that proof stated in Ro 3:25-26.
All in the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church, going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11) are saved by Jesus' work on the cross.

just as it was after the cross. It is the "one Gospel" preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 -- as well as to all OT saints. Heb 4:2 "The Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also". God does not change

The gospel preached to the Israelites which was of no value to them in Heb 4:2 is stated in Heb 3:11 as the promise of rest in the promised land of Canaan (Nu 14:23).
The newly-professing Hebrew Christians, like the Israelites before them, were considering not going into God's rest in the gospel salvation rest of Jesus Christ, from their own works to save, and in his work which saves, and instead returning to Judaism and the works of the law for their salvation.

Moses and Elijah are more about representation of the completion of their work in Jesus' work on the cross.
Moses, the great OT deliverer and lawgiver, whose work was finished by Joshua, and
Elijah, the prophet, whose work was finished by Elisha (Joshua),
speaking with Jesus (Joshua, who finished the work of John the Baptist),
about the "exodus" of delivering his people from the bondage of sin, fulfilling the work of both Moses and Elijah,
as well as serving to demonstrate the testimony of the Law and the Prophets to Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

The gospel preached to the Israelites which was of no value to them in Heb 4:2 is stated in Heb 3:11 as the promise of rest in the promised land of Canaan (Nu 14:23).

IN both OT and NT when the one and only Gospel is preached to someone and they reject it - it is of no use to them. IT does not benefit them in that case - it only increases their guilt -- though they may still have the benefit that one of their children accept the Gospel even though the parent rejects it. Hence all the OT giants of faith we find in Heb 11.

 

[Clare73]

IN both OT and NT when the one and only Gospel is preached to someone and they reject it - it is of no use to them. IT does not benefit them in that case - it only increases their guilt -- though they may still have the benefit that one of their children accept the Gospel even though the parent rejects it. Hence all the OT giants of faith we find in Heb 11.

The gospel privilege of entering into God's rest; i.e., into a covenant relationship to Christ, union with God through Christ, wherein we grow up to be made perfect, is a promise left us by Christ in his last will and testament. It is ours to lay claim to that rest and its freedom from sin and the flesh's dominion. The same gospel privilege of entering into God's rest was preached to the OT saints in the sacrifices and ceremonies, though not as clearly as in the NT.
The author of Hebrews is paralleling the possible failure, due to their unbelief, of these newly-professing Hebrew Christians to enter into the gospel privilege of God's rest in Christ's salvation (from their own works to save, and in his work which saves), to the failure of the Canaanites to enter into the same gospel privilege of God's promised rest in Canaan (Dt 12:9-10, 25:19; Jos 21:44, 22:4, 23:1) because of their unbelief.

The Levitical laws/ceremonies by which the gospel was preached to the OT saints, did not "ratify" Jesus' atonement, nor the new covenant. They merely foreshadowed it, covering (not remitting) their sins until Jesus' actual atonement was made for them on the cross (Ro 3:25-26).

Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration of Jesus did not indicate an already "ratified" new covenant.

IN both OT and NT when the one and only Gospel is preached to someone and they reject it - it is of no use to them. IT does not benefit them in that case - it only increases their guilt -- though they may still have the benefit that one of their children accept the Gospel even though the parent rejects it. Hence all the OT giants of faith we find in Heb 11.

 

[JLB777]

I believe the text, it was an angel.

So you believe the Lord God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, Who is the great I AM, is an angel ?

If you believe the text, then you should believe the Angel of the Lord is the Lord and God; the great I AM. The Son of God.

Here it is again —


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:1-6,14



If you believe the text as you say, then you should believe that Moses was afraid to look upon God; God the Son.







JLB

 

[JLB777]

The Abrahamic Covenant of Ge 17:4-9 was conditioned on total consecration to the Lord as his people, symbolized by the works of cutting off the flesh (Col 2:11) in circumcision, and which was required to be in the covenant of Abraham.

The New Covenant of Lk 22:20; 1Co 11:25 is unconditional, no physical performance of works required, based on faith only--not by faith's works (Eph 2:8-9); i. e., not by physical performance.

The same “work” that was required of Abraham, is also required of all who are to be sons of God.

Obedience; the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead, and incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.

• That is why its called obeying the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16-17


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:7


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17


Do you understand how to obey the Gospel?





JLB

 

[JLB777]

...for those who affirm that the man Jesus is that Messiah. But for the Jew of Judaism, God has "partially hardened" (Romans 11:25) them to that gospel of who their Messiah is (and will be), because "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable," (Romans 11:29). That hardening serves two purposes: 1) "By their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles" (Romans 11:11) and 2) so that God may fulfill all the promises he made to them, including the covenant of Jeremiah 31: "This is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins. (So) from the standpoint of the gospel they (seem like) enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers..." (Romans 11:27,28).

In the meantime, there are two covenants in action, per Paul: "Their minds were hardened [by God -- Romans 11:25]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in (the revealed) Christ," 2 Corinthians 3:14.

When is that veil removed for the descendants of Israel who remain under the veil of the law covenant? At the second coming -- "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as on mourns for an only son," Zechariah 12:10. When will that be? In the "day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... (when he) will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem... In (the) day a fountain (is) opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity... (When) one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'... In that day... the Lord will be king over all the earth..." Zechariah 12:8-9; 13:1,6; 14:9

That is when God makes a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, when he puts the law in their hearts so they never forsake him again. And it is why we are not to be arrogant towards the natural branches, the Jews of Judaism (Romans 11:25).

Number 1 — Judaism is not from God. God did not give the children of Israel the religion of Judaism. Judaism is a man made religion comprised of the law of Moses mixed with the traditions (teaching) of man, such as the teachings of the Talmud.

Judaism is the number one antichrist religion. Judaism teaches that Jesus is a false prophet and a false teacher, and is not the Messiah.


Number 2 — The Lord Jesus Christ (before He became flesh) made Covenant with Abraham, in which we are grafted into that Covenant in Christ.


Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

• foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

All the nations refers to Gentiles.




JLB

 

[BobRyan]

The gospel privilege of entering into God's rest; i.e., into a covenant relationship to Christ, union with God through Christ, wherein we grow up to be made perfect, is a promise left us by Christ in his last will and testament. It is ours to lay claim to that rest and its freedom from sin and the flesh's dominion. The same gospel privilege of entering into God's rest was preached to the OT saints in the sacrifices and ceremonies, though not as clearly as in the NT.

True - we see that covenant in both Jer 31 and in Heb 8.

The author of Hebrews is paralleling the possible failure, due to their unbelief, of these newly-professing Hebrew Christians to enter into the gospel privilege of God's rest in Christ's salvation (from their own works to save, and in his work which saves), to the failure of the Canaanites to enter into the same gospel privilege of God's promised rest in Canaan (Dt 12:9-10, 25:19; Jos 21:44, 22:4, 23:1) because of their unbelief.

true

The Levitical laws/ceremonies by which the gospel was preached to the OT saints, did not "ratify" Jesus' atonement, nor the new covenant. They merely foreshadowed it

True. It was fully active in the OT as we see in the case of Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration with Christ in glory before the cross had happened - but it was not ratified in blood until the death of Christ on the cross.

Moses and Elijah could not be immortal , in glory, in heaven , in God's presence with "unforgiven sin". They were fully forgiven.

They were under the NEW Covenant and fully forgiven even though it had not yet been ratified in blood.

Romans 4 says "God counts those things that are not as though they are" -- Rom 4:17 "a father of many nations HAVE I MADE you" (as if done already in the past) is a statement spoken to Abraham while as yet he had not one nation.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Number 1 — Judaism is not from God. God did not give the children of Israel the religion of Judaism. Judaism is a man made religion comprised of the law of Moses mixed with the traditions (teaching) of man, such as the teachings of the Talmud.

Yikes. Well, I suppose Jesus was wrong then: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you [Jews of Judaism], do and observe..." -- Jesus

But you are correct, that Judaism is comprised of the law of Moses (and yes, mixed with some traditions of man, kind of like you'd find in Christianity throughout its history even up to today -- uh-oh, does that mean "Christianity is not from God"?). So the question is, did God command the descendants of Israel, to the exclusion of all other peoples on earth, to obey the law of Moses, or not? Well the bible says yes: "You shall... obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments [of the law of Moses] which I command you today." -- Deuteronomy 30:8

Is God going to restore national Israel to worshipping under the Temple and the sacrifices of the Law of Moses? The prophets say yes: "'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion... I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth... Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the west; and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they will be My people, and I will be their God... The fast of the fourth, the fast of the fifth, the fast of the seventh and the fast of tenth months [the times of mourning over the various desecrations of the Temple] will become joy, gladness, and cheerful feasts for the house of Judah... So many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord... In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'" -- Zechariah 8

Why will those days of mourning be turned to joy and gladness? Because the Temple will be rebuilt and the King will be presiding over its sacrifices prescribed by the Law of Moses as the High Priest of the Kingdom: "Behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming form the way of the east... And the glory of the Lord came into the [Temple] by the way of the gate facing toward the east... And the glory of the Lord filled the [Temple]... And (someone) said to me, 'Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name... Describe (this) Temple to the house of Israel... and let them measure the plan... Make know to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.'" -- Ezekiel 43

Will the statutes of the kingdom Temple include the animal sacrifices required by the Law of Moses? Certainly: "Thus says the Lord God, 'These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is built, to offer burnt offerings on it and to sprinkle blood on it... When they have completed the days [of consecration], it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you,' declares the Lord God." -- Ezekiel 43:18-27

Where does it say the King will also be the High Priest? Right here: "Behold, a man whose name is the Branch... will build the Temple of the Lord... and He... will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne, (and) He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices," -- Zechariah 6:12,13

It's true that when Jesus was on earth the first time, he could not have been a priest in the temple built by man, because he was not of the tribe of Levi (Hebrews 8:4). But by promise, when he returns as king of the earth, he will build the Temple (2 Samuel 7:13), which will be the Temple of God on earth, and at the same time he will replace the Law of Moses with a new covenant (Jeremiah 31), in which he consecrates himself takes up the turban [He already consecrated Himself on the cross]--edit as High Priest by the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:14) and places the Law of Moses within the hearts of Israel so they never forsake the law again.

It is true he is presiding right now in that Temple, which is in heaven, but when he comes down to earth again, and rebuilds the Temple, then that will be where he is, and the Temple in which he is High Priest. He doesn't leave us there in heaven alone, we come down with him.

Number 2 -- we do not disagree about number 2, except we are not grafted into the covenant, we are directly named ("all the nations") as recipients of the promise of blessing in the covenant, as so read in your citation of Galatians 3:7-9.

 

[BobRyan]

So the question is, did God command the descendants of Israel, to the exclusion of all other peoples on earth, to obey the law of Moses, or not? Well the bible says yes: "You shall... obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments [of the law of Moses] which I command you today." -- Deuteronomy 30:8

In Lev 18 we see examples of laws in the Law of Moses being ignored by pagan nations around Israel - and then God wiping out those pagan nations for doing it. God held them accountable.

So then even Christians today - are not to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7

 

[BobRyan]

Will the statutes of the kingdom Temple include the animal sacrifices required by the Law of Moses? Certainly: "Thus says the Lord God, 'These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is built, to offer burnt offerings on it and to sprinkle blood on it... When they have completed the days [of consecration], it shall be that on the eighth day and onward, the priests shall offer your burnt offerings on the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you,' declares the Lord God." -- Ezekiel 43:18-27

Heb 10 says all animal sacrifice laws regarding offerings and sacrifice for sin - end at the cross.

 

[Clare73]

So you believe the Lord God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, Who is the great I AM, is an angel ?

If you believe the text, then you should believe the Angel of the Lord is the Lord and God; the great I AM. The Son of God.

Here it is again —


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Exodus 3:1-6,14

If you believe the text as you say, then you should believe that Moses was afraid to look upon God; God the Son.

Okay, I give you this one. . .the Angel of the Lord was Christ.