• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

God's sovereignty and the responsibility of mankind. A reformed question.

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,111
45,780
68
✟3,094,865.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Any recollection in which book in the Institutes this was discussed? My curiosity is peaked now and I'm interested in delving deeper into his scriptural basis. Regarding your concern that "God would condemn someone to eternity in the Lake of Fire on the basis of their fallen "nature" alone" - I agree completely. It WOULD be an unjust God sending anyone to Hell without sin.
I'll have to find it again.

I believe that Calvin was opposing the extreme free will beliefs of Servetus at that point in Institutes, a belief/teaching (of Servetus) that infants, since they had not freely chosen to believe before they died, were consigned to the Lake of Fire on that basis, even though Servetus admits that they were incapable of doing so (this belief/teaching was thoroughly condemned by Calvin).

I'll get back to you as soon as I find it.

--David
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Brother-Mike
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,467
4,506
39
US
✟1,092,036.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Thank you :)

Just to be clear, I believe that ALL Biblical "predestination" is to life only (IOW, to "adoption" as His sons/daughters), never to damnation (though His passing over of those who He does not elect, whose free will choice to reject Him He does not to interfere with, amounts to a passive predestination, of course).

That said, I also believe that in His foreknowledge He ordained the fall of mankind (meaning that He did not "cause" it to happen, rather, that He knew that it would happen and "allowed" it to happen). So, it seems that we are on the same page about all of this :oldthumbsup:

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - terminology is often a BIG problem out here in online Christendom, and that is the thing that was probably hanging me up somewhat earlier in the thread (for instance, I see God's foreknowledge and ordination as one thing, something that He either causes, stops or allows to happen, but His choosing, election, and/or predestination, etc., as something that He is always directly responsible for doing).

It would be helpful if CF had a list of specific definitions for words that we could all use to better understand one another in threads like this one, but I doubt that will ever happen.

III. Of God’s Eternal Decree
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27–28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33). ~Westminster Confession of Faith
.

So God just passes over the wicked? Wasn't it a teaching of Sproul that he also predestined the wicked to hell? Yet, that predestination isn't a stain on his holiness because as sinners we all deserve hell and thats why God gave us grace. He mentioned what I said in my OP (neither side gets injustice) I'll have to search youtube for the specific video but I've seen it.

But it's specifically that that I'm confused about. While nobody will ultimately get injustice it's hard for humanity to grasp how God can choose those he loves and condemn those he hates. But we see this in the Bible too (God closing the doors on the arc for example so nobody could get in is one example.)
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,467
4,506
39
US
✟1,092,036.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I'll have to find it again.

I believe that Calvin was opposing the extreme free will beliefs of Servetus at that point in Institutes, a belief/teaching (of Servetus) that infants, since they had not freely chosen to believe before they died, were consigned to the Lake of Fire on that basis, even though Servetus admits that they were incapable of doing so (this belief/teaching was thoroughly condemned by Calvin).

I'll get back to you as soon as I find it.

--David

Who was Severtus? I'm finding this interesting and would like to know more.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think I must mention. I embrace reformed theology as truth and the truth of scripture but im having a hard time accepting this question. That being said, Gods sovereignty and mans responsiblility go hand in hand. On one field we have God's sovereignty. Which means that God declares everything that comes to pass and there is nothing that has happened or ever will happen that wasn't foreordained by God (Ps 139:16, Is 46:10-13).

On the other field we have mankind's responsibility to accept Christ. My question is, if God has declared everything that comes to pass how therefore can we avoid God's wrath and how can God still be a just God by leaving the lost in their sins and then declaring on judgement day that they're guilty for not believing? Again, I don't mean to make fun of or disprove reformed theology I'm just asking a question. Because, nobody can do anything outside of God's will. I know Paul answered this very question with a "shut up. You don't understand who you are and who God is and we have no right to tell God how to be." But, I would like an answer beyond "Shut up".

For example, say person A recieves faith from God and person B is left in their sin. Person B gets justice and the other gets grace neither gets injustice. This is a truth in reformed theology. But, how can God still keep his sinless character by declaring one lost and the other sanctified and how is this truth so?
Double-predestination logically contradicts a loving and fair God. It's really that simple.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,467
4,506
39
US
✟1,092,036.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Double-predestination logically contradicts a loving and fair God. It's really that simple.

God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice. Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

Brother-Mike

Predetermined to freely believe
Aug 16, 2022
626
537
Toronto
✟49,841.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Private
God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice. Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...
Seconded!
 
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,111
45,780
68
✟3,094,865.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Who was Severtus? I'm finding this interesting and would like to know more.
This would be a great place to start (and may be all that you need on Servetus): History of the Christian Church, Schaff, 1910 edition with power search. SERVETUS: HIS LIFE. OPINIONS, TRIAL, AND EXECUTION

BTW, if you do not already own Philip Schaff's 8-volume History of the Christian Church, I would HIGHLY recommend grabbing it up. It takes a look at the church from the 1st Century to the post-Reformational period, and it is a ~GREAT~ read throughout (unusual for a even single book on history, IMHO ;), much less an 8-volume set :)). And rather than the $600.00 that the 8 volumes used to cost in hardback, you can get all eight volumes in Kindle right now for $1.99 (or in Logos, if you use that software, but at $50, it's a bit more expensive).

Or just read it all for free online at the opening link above, though it is easier to read and searchable (of course) on Kindle and/or Logos.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - Michael Servetus was an Anabaptist agitator who was always in trouble with Rome and with the Reformer. Also, there are those who attack the systematic theology of Calvinism by ad hominem attacks against the man for whom the theology was named, and Servetus is often the first ad hominem that they use.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,467
4,506
39
US
✟1,092,036.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
This would be a great place to start (and may be all that you need on Servetus): History of the Christian Church, Schaff, 1910 edition with power search. SERVETUS: HIS LIFE. OPINIONS, TRIAL, AND EXECUTION

BTW, if you do not already own Philip Schaff's 8-volume History of the Christian Church, I would HIGHLY recommend grabbing it up. It takes a look at the church from the 1st Century to the post-Reformational period, and it is a ~GREAT~ read throughout (unusual for a single book on history, IMHO much less an 8-volume set :)). And rather than the $600.00 that the 8 volumes used to cost in hardback, you can get all eight volumes in Kindle right now for $1.99 (or in Logos, if you use that software, but at $50, it's a bit more expensive).

Or just read it all for free online at the opening link above, though it is easier to read and searchable (of course) on Kindle and/or Logos.

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - Michael Servetus as an Anabaptist agitator who was always in trouble with Rome and with the Reformer. There are those attack the systematic theology of Calvinism by ad hominem attacks on the man for whom the theology was named, and Servetus is often the first ad hominem that they point to.


I've never used kindle before but I can probably figure it out $1.99 is WAY cheaper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
28,111
45,780
68
✟3,094,865.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
  • Like
Reactions: Neostarwcc
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,467
4,506
39
US
✟1,092,036.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
  • Informative
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God is fair with double predestination. Like I said, neither gets injustice. In order for God to be not fair he would have to commit an injustice.
You seemed pretty clear that the Reformed God is unjust, when you said:

"On one field we have God's sovereignty. Which means that God declares everything that comes to pass and there is nothing that has happened or ever will happen that wasn't foreordained by God (Ps 139:16, Is 46:10-13)...nobody can do anything outside of God's will."

For example, say person A recieves faith from God and person B is left in their sin. Person B gets justice and the other gets grace neither gets injustice. This is a truth in reformed theology. But, how can God still keep his sinless character by declaring one lost and the other sanctified and how is this truth so?

Very annoying that Reformed thinkers frequently conflate two issues that should be treated separately.
...(1) Did Adam and Eve have free will? And, even if they did, in what sense it is justice for their descendants to be born with a fallen nature?
...(2) Do those born with fallen nature have freedom to choose salvation?

Theology should clarify things. Things become less clear when issues are jumbled together.



Loving idk. It would depend on one's definition of loving...

Would you consider yourself a loving father if you treated your children after the fashion of double-predestination?
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I understand your sentiment.

Hell is a serious problem: it is eternal and permanent...Instead of denying determinism, which is logical, I am beginning to question the nature of Hell itself.
Good point. Please be open-minded to annihilationism, for example. Hell is unlikely to be an infinitely long sentence for a finite crime.

You describe the horrors of double-predestination:
For God to predetermine our eternal destiny, even though we are responsible for it, presents Him as an arbitrarily partial Creator. I say arbitrarily, because, those whom He elects had nothing in themselves that influenced their calling. Why He decided to choose Sam instead Tim has nothing to do with Sam or Tim, but still, that choice will have profound and eternal consequences for the both of them. If Tim was destined from eternity, in God's love, to eternal life, then Sam was destined from eternity, in God's wrath, to eternal damnation, for no actual reason in themselves. This is very partial, but arbitrary on a human level of understanding. If we use Paul's logic in Romans 9:22-23, then God has the right to create a majority of people for no other purpose but to show how much He loved His chosen few. The reprobate, in this case, who will consist of 99% of humanity, have no other ultimate meaning but to show that they weren't eternally loved by their Creator, and that they were only meant serve those whom God wanted to shower His covenant love on. So, from my perspective, this presents God in a very impersonal light toward His own fallen creatures who were victims of the fall. Yes, people commit sin, which has serious consequences, but at the same time, because they are serious, the fact that people are born sinners and cannot free themselves without God's effectual grace working in them makes any rational person cringe at the thought of it. Again, people are born to be condemned if that is the case. If you think about it long enough, it appears to be a horrifying reality, and to make matters worse, we aren't suppose to question God why (Romans 9:20), because God is above us.
Since Arminians tend to resist full monergism/election, their solution seems inadequate to me. On the other hand they are correct that Paul believed anyone can be saved (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). Let's go back to Adam and resolve this properly. True justice allows me to suffer consequences for Adam's sins only if I myself am Adam - or at least a tiny piece of his physical soul. Back then we functioned as one dense physical mind named Adam even though you and I don't remember it, we don't remember freely choosing to consume the forbidden fruit. Millard J. Erickson has rightly stated, "We were all [physically] present in Adam, and all sinned in his act" (Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2001, reprint), p. 654).

Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

God cannot feel wrath/anger at the innocent! Nor at deterministic puppets! The point of that passage is that God has every right to elect whomsoever He wills because we lost our rights when we sinned in Adam. You'll reply that Jacob and Esau were elected before they did anything bad of good. Not true. Admittedly as Jacob and Esau - in that prenatal state - they had as yet done nothing wrong. But Romans 1 thru 8 came first. According to those earlier chapters, all sinned, at least in Adam.

Can anyone be saved? In my view, God preelected sections/pieces of Adam's physical soul unto salvation before the foundation of the world, in case he should fall. My theory is that every human being's soul consists of at least one elect piece. That means anyone can be saved. If a person dies unsaved, his soul goes to hell, but God extracts his elect piece, moving it on to another generation. Eventually all the elect pieces will be saved by divine monergism.

To summarize: all people are the elect, and as such, anyone MIGHT be saved.

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may [MIGHT] obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10).

Intercession should be made for everyone because prayer can move God to monergistically save anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jonaitis
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,352
4,305
Wyoming
✟148,693.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Good point. Please be open-minded to annihilationism, for example. Hell is unlikely to be an infinitely long sentence for a finite crime.

You describe the horrors of double-predestination:

Since Arminians tend to resist full monergism/election, their solution seems inadequate to me. On the other hand they are correct that Paul believed anyone can be saved (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). Let's go back to Adam and resolve this properly. True justice allows me to suffer consequences for Adam's sins only if I myself am Adam - or at least a tiny piece of his physical soul. Back then we functioned as one dense physical mind named Adam even though you and I don't remember it, we don't remember freely choosing to consume the forbidden fruit. Millard J. Erickson has rightly stated, "We were all [physically] present in Adam, and all sinned in his act" (Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2001, reprint), p. 654).

Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

God cannot feel wrath/anger at the innocent! Nor at deterministic puppets! The point of that passage is that God has every right to elect whomsoever He wills because we lost our rights when we sinned in Adam. You'll reply that Jacob and Esau were elected before they did anything bad of good. Not true. Admittedly as Jacob and Esau - in that prenatal state - they had as yet done nothing wrong. But Romans 1 thru 8 came first. According to those earlier chapters, all sinned, at least in Adam.

Can anyone be saved? In my view, God preelected sections/pieces of Adam's physical soul unto salvation before the foundation of the world, in case he should fall. My theory is that every human being's soul consists of at least one elect piece. That means anyone can be saved. If a person dies unsaved, his soul goes to hell, but God extracts his elect piece, moving it on to another generation. Eventually all the elect pieces will be saved by divine monergism.

To summarize: all people are the elect, and as such, anyone MIGHT be saved.

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may [MIGHT] obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory." (2 Tim 2:10).

Intercession should be made for everyone because prayer can move God to monergistically save anyone.
Interesting interpretation, but I'll have to disagree on the "elect pieces" in all men, it just doesn't seem right to me.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Interesting interpretation, but I'll have to disagree on the "elect pieces" in all men, it just doesn't seem right to me.
To start with, we must be pieces of Adam, right? How else can there be a just view of the Fall?

BTW, Christ was a piece of the enthroned Son. That is my solution to the Incarnation - and it provides the ONLY clear, coherent explanation in church history.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,352
4,305
Wyoming
✟148,693.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
To start with, we must be pieces of Adam, right? How else can there be a just view of the Fall?

BTW, Christ was a piece of the enthroned Son. That is my solution to the Incarnation - and it provides the ONLY clear, coherent explanation in church history.
See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
It doesn't matter. The system is flexible. If your preferred version is that the entire physical Son came off the throne into Mary's womb, that's fine too.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,778
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
See, now there is an underlying reformulation of the Trinity involved. I can't get behind it. Prove that Christ is not wholly the Son.
Why should I have to prove anything? All other explanations are totally incoherent - plagued with apparent contradictions, at least as far as human understanding is concerned.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,352
4,305
Wyoming
✟148,693.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
It doesn't matter. The system is flexible. If your preferred version is that the entire physical Son came off the throne into Mary's womb, that's fine too.
Well, I don't believe that the Son is a "someone," but the direct expression of the Godhead that became a someone named Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,352
4,305
Wyoming
✟148,693.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why should I have to prove anything? All other explanations are totally incoherent - plagued with apparent contradictions, at least as far as human understanding is concerned.
You are trying to convince me of your position? What is the biblical support?
 
Upvote 0