God's sovereignty and the responsibility of mankind. A reformed question.

[JAL]

Interesting interpretation, but I'll have to disagree on the "elect pieces" in all men, it just doesn't seem right to me.

Be aware that everything - not just Adam - is about pieces. Reformed and evangelical theologians never admitted that regeneration transpires in pieces. Here's why.

The new birth is an impartation of holiness, "We are not only counted holy; we are holy” (Andrew Murray, The Believer's Secret of Holiness (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1984), p. 66).

A piece of you was made holy/reborn. Otherwise, all of you would be holy - there would be no room/possibility for a sinful nature.

P.S. That's actually the main topic of Galatians 3. Paul's logic is:
....(1). An outpouring made a piece of you holy - instantly.
....(2). How then do we mature? More such (reviving) outpourings!
Summary: revival and sanctification are the same thing. Failing to realize this, the church historically failed to make revival their top priority.

 

[Jonaitis]

Be aware that everything - not just Adam - is about pieces. Reformed and evangelical theologians never admitted that regeneration transpires in pieces. Here's why.

The new birth is an impartation of holiness, "We are not only counted holy; we are holy” (Andrew Murray, The Believer's Secret of Holiness (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1984), p. 66).

A piece of you was made holy/reborn. Otherwise, all of you would be holy - there would be no room/possibility for a sinful nature.

P.S. That's actually the main topic of Galatians 3. Paul's logic is:
....(1). An outpouring made a piece of you holy - instantly.
....(2). How then do we mature? More such (reviving) outpourings!
Summary: revival and sanctification are the same thing. Failing to realize this, the church historically failed to make revival their top priority.

I am a nondualist Christian, so I interpret the new birth differently than most Reformed and evangelical theologians. It is awakening to our true nature, which is a form of 'transformation,' rather than obtaining some new nature. Sanctification is the continuation of this process.

 

[Neostarwcc]

How I look at it, is that the Lord will get the glory either way, if we take God's grace then we get the blessings of grace but if we turn away from Jesus we get His wrath. Also, I also take the approach "It is His universe, He gets to do what He wants."

Which is what Paul said, yeah. What you said makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

 

[JAL]

I am a nondualist Christian, so I interpret the new birth differently than most Reformed and evangelical theologians. It is awakening to our true nature, which is a form of 'transformation,' rather than obtaining some new nature. Sanctification is the continuation of this process.

Isn't this a distinction without a difference? Does the new birth make us holy, or not?

 

[Jonaitis]

Isn't this a distinction without a difference? Does the new birth make us holy, or not?

The new birth is the return to our original holiness.

The image of God is damaged and marred by sin, but is renewed and restored by grace.

 

[JAL]

The new birth is the return to our original holiness.

The image of God is damaged and marred by sin, but is renewed and restored by grace.

Right. So it must be in pieces. Otherwise, all of me would be holy, and I would no longer sin.

 

[Jonaitis]

Right. So it must be in pieces. Otherwise, all of me would be holy, and I would no longer sin.

All of you is holy, the damage stems from your ignorance (sin). Rebirth clears the ignorance of what was already there.

I think of rebirth like reawakening to our true reality, and sanctification like carrying on that process.

 

[JAL]

All of you is holy, the damage stems from your ignorance (sin). Rebirth clears the ignorance of what was already there.

I think of rebirth like reawakening to our true reality, and sanctification like carrying on that process.

There's no longer any sinful nature?

 

[Jonaitis]

There's no longer any sinful nature?

Sinful nature is our ignorance of truth.

 

[Jonaitis]

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” - John 10:33-38

"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” - Matthew 12:50

"that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me." - John 17:1

The goal, in my view, is reunification of creation with its Creator; a union "broken" by ignorance.

God is the teleological and eschatological end of all.

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't this a distinction without a difference? Does the new birth make us holy, or not?

It gives us a second nature instead of just having one -- the sinful nature we have two as a result of the new birth. Hence the Romans 7 struggle for the born again Christian.

 

[BobRyan]

Sinful nature is our ignorance of truth.

Romans 3 and Romans 7 say that our sinful nature is a bent toward evil - rebellion.
Romans 8 says that a person acting solely from the sinful nature 'DOES not submit to the word of God neither indeed CAN they"

 

[JAL]

Sinful nature is our ignorance of truth.

An infant is ignorant - therefore sinful? Doesn't make sense. The sinful nature is the heart's evil desires/lusts/passions.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal 5).


"12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires" (Rom 6)

"5For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death." (Rom 7).


"But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire" (Rom 7).

"The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so." (Rom 8).


Do you still have any evil lusts/passions/desires? Pride? Unbelief? Selfishness? Unwarranted anger, impatience, melancholy, laziness? That would be your sinful nature.

Sinful nature is our ignorance of truth.

Trust me, you don't want knowledge to be God's measuring stick for sin. You really want Him to punish you for mistakes made for lack of omniscience?

A righeous God will punish men based on only one principle, which I call "the rule of conscience"


If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and action-B is good, I should opt for B.

This rule reigns in all situations. There are no possible exceptions.

 

[JAL]

It gives us a second nature instead of just having one -- the sinful nature we have two as a result of the new birth. Hence the Romans 7 struggle for the born again Christian.

The term "second nature" is unclear and imprecise. It's like saying, "God has a holy nature, but that means He could also have a sinful nature at the same time." The one EXCLUDES the other.

Therefore the rebirth must be in pieces. A PIECE of you was made holy. That's the only coherent interpretation.

 

[BobRyan]

The term "second nature" is unclear and imprecise. It's like saying, "God has a holy nature, but that means He could also have a sinful nature at the same time." The one EXCLUDES the other.

Therefore the rebirth must be in pieces. A PIECE of you was made holy. That's the only coherent interpretation.

A new nature was "created" at the new Birth - that new nature was created in harmony with God .. 2 Cor 5 "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW Creation".

But Romans 7 makes it clear that the old man of sin also still exists.

We are not born with two natures. That only happens as a result of that new birth.

=========================

NOTHING is "like saying that if God has a holy nature He must also have a sinful nature" -- that is not logical. You need to make a logical argument for such an extreme speculation.

 

[JAL]

A new nature was "created" at the new Birth - that new nature was created in harmony with God .. 2 Cor 5 "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW Creation".

But Romans 7 makes it clear that the old man of sin also still exists.

We are not born with two natures. That only happens as a result of that new birth.

I can't carry on a discussion with you if you use unclear language. An object cannot have two natures - two conflicting, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, natures.

=========================

NOTHING is "like saying that if God has a holy nature He must also have a sinful nature" -- that is not logical. You need to make a logical argument for such an extreme speculation.

As you SO OFTEN DO, you created a ridiculous caricature/strawman of what I said. I was speaking of possibilities, more like this: "like saying that if God has a holy nature IT IS POSSIBLE FOR HIM to also have a sinful nature" . Such is NOT possible because "two natures" (2 opposing natures) is a contradiction in terms. The ONLY way to have two conflicting realities is for them to be separate pieces.

 

[JAL]

A new nature was "created" at the new Birth - that new nature was created in harmony with God .. 2 Cor 5 "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW Creation".

But Romans 7 makes it clear that the old man of sin also still exists.

We are not born with two natures. That only happens as a result of that new birth.

Did you read the whole verse?

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.a The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!"

The old MUST be gone because you cannot be holy and evil at the same time - that is a contradiction. The ONLY way for such to be possible is separate pieces.

Regarding your holy piece:

"He is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!"

 

[JAL]

A new nature was "created" at the new Birth - that new nature was created in harmony with God .. 2 Cor 5 "if anyone is in Christ he is a NEW Creation".

But Romans 7 makes it clear that the old man of sin also still exists.

We are not born with two natures. That only happens as a result of that new birth.

Much like 2 Corinthians 5:17 is Galatians 5:24:


"24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Eliminated it. Put it to death. It doesn't continue to exist as a "second nature". It is GONE.

Therefore the sinful flesh must be a separate piece of me.

 

[JAL]

Incidentally, the phrase "sinful nature" doesn't exist in the Greek NT. As I recall, that's a (poor) English translation of Paul's term "flesh".

 

[dqhall]

Much like 2 Corinthians 5:17 is Galatians 5:24:


"24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Eliminated it. Put it to death. It doesn't continue to exist as a "second nature". It is GONE.

Therefore the sinful flesh must be a separate piece of me.

After Jesus entered Jerusalem on a donkey by way of the road over the Mt. of Olives. He knew what was going to happen.

John 12:23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

In this case he continued to desire to do the will of his father. A seed that dies becomes born again as a wheat plant on a single stalk. A bushel of wheat sown on good soil becomes 90 bushels of wheat.