Creation Sabbath Origin

[BobRyan]

I hear what you're saying, and to me it supports the possibility that those very early humans didn't have all of the Sabbath laws that are found in the law of Moses.

No doubt that before the fall of mankind Adam did not have any laws about sacrificing animals.

But Sabbath is one of those laws that was not given in animal sacrifice as Ex 20:8-11 and Gen 2:1-3 demonstrate.

 

[Leaf473]

No doubt that before the fall of mankind Adam did not have any laws about sacrificing animals.

But Sabbath is one of those laws that was not given in animal sacrifice as Ex 20:8-11 and Gen 2:1-3 demonstrate.

Right, some things related to the Sabbath were added later. To me, that supports the idea that those very early humans didn't necessarily have a Sabbath commandment in the form it appears in Exodus 20.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Wish to share my thoughts.

First, darkness and void - (Jeremiah 4:22-23) “For My people are fools; they have not known Me. They are foolish children, without understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but they know not how to do good.” I looked at the earth, and it was formless and void; I looked to the heavens, and they had no light.

Then - (2 Corinthians 4:6) For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Then, the seventh-day rest.

**About the seventh-day rest that comes following this train of thoughts**

To begin with, God said keeping the Sabbath is the permanent covenant in the Book of Exodus (Exodus 31:16). God also said circumcision is a permanent covenant in the Book of Genesis, which Paul recognized as the law (Genesis 17:13, Galatians 4:21-25).

However, Apostle Paul ended the physical requirement of circumcision because Christ ended the law (Romans 10:4). The Law then is spiritual (Romans 7:14) by Jesus fulfilling it (Matthew 5:17), making the shadow law into a spiritual reality through His death (Hebrews 10:1). So, the emphasis on spiritual circumcision takes place instead of the physical one. (Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11)

Now, Apostle Paul bundled the covenant of Mount Sinai as slavery (Galatians 4:21-26), and this covenant of Mount Sinai includes observing the Sabbath by the law (Exodus 20:8-11).

Then, Paul spoke about the seventh day God rested in his other letter (Hebrews 4:4). Right away, he preached observing the sabbath rest is to believe in God (Hebrews 4:3), where believing in God is doing the work of God according to Jesus (John 6:28-29). We do this work of believing in God inside ourselves, God’s temple (1 Corinthians 3:16) because we are priests (1 Peter 2:9), sacrificing our living hearts (Psalm 51:17, 1 Samuel 15:22, Mark 12:33, Hosea 6:6, Romans 12:1) that God search (Jeremiah 17:10).

Think about it. We should believe in God every day, thus having fellowship with God. Likewise for exhorting one another (Hebrews 3:13, Acts 2:47), building the church of God (1 Thessalonians 5:11, 1 Timothy 3:15).

We who believed every day brought us into this rest which is the spoken seventh-day rest, at the same time, working on this “Sabbath rest” in us (temple) yet are innocent (Matthew 12:5). We do this every “Today.” (Hebrews 4:7-9) – a type of eternal rest.

“Blessed is the man whose iniquity the LORD does not count against him, in whose spirit there is no deceit (Psalm 32:2).”

Jesus worked by faith during the Sabbath to prove this point as well. He said God is still working during Sabbath (John 5:16-17). Paul, however, said God has rested from His work during Sabbath (Hebrews 4:10). So there are two types of works here. One that God continues and one that God rested -> God stops speaking to create but continues to speak to let men live (Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3). Similarly, Jesus speaks by faith to heal and resurrect the dead.

**Sidetrack a little bit**

To add, Jesus is the Word[Outcome] that came from God who speaks (John 1:1). Therefore, He is the spoken Word born of the speaking Father. Both are One (John 10:30) because Speak is not without a Word, and a Word is not without Speak. Yet, the One who speaks is higher than the Word spoken (John 5:20), and He subjects everything to Him/Word (“Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3”) but not Himself/Speaker (1 Corinthians 15:27).

So, Jesus is the work that God continuously sustains. “The Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does (John 5:19).” All who believed in Him whom He sent will do the same work as God and rest the same rest as God. “Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do (John 14:12).”

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28).” – Believing in Him, not by mere knowledge but by measurable faith (Matthew 17:20, Romans 12:3).

***

So, I think Sabbath Rest is every “Today” because what we are supposed to do during the traditional sabbath day is what we supposedly do every day. The altar is with us (Hebrews 13:10). Otherwise, what instruction was given by the One instructor (Matthew 23:10) regarding Sabbath rest today that we are not doing every day, at the same time, not under the covenant of Mount Sinai, which Paul said is slavery (Galatians 4:21-26)?

I believe that is the Garden of Eden Sabbath when everything was well-created, no thorns and thistles (Genesis 3:18), auto-watered (Genesis 2:6). Cultivating plants in such a Garden of Eden conditions is just a retiring old man's hobby, bonsai-ing, but Adam is not old. Right?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Wish to share my thoughts.

First, darkness and void - (Jeremiah 4:22-23) “For My people are fools; they have not known Me. They are foolish children, without understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but they know not how to do good.” I looked at the earth, and it was formless and void; I looked to the heavens, and they had no light.

Then - (2 Corinthians 4:6) For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Then, the seventh-day rest.

**About the seventh-day rest that comes following this train of thoughts**

To begin with, God said keeping the Sabbath is the permanent covenant in the Book of Exodus (Exodus 31:16). God also said circumcision is a permanent covenant in the Book of Genesis, which Paul recognized as the law (Genesis 17:13, Galatians 4:21-25).

However, Apostle Paul ended the physical requirement of circumcision because Christ ended the law (Romans 10:4). The Law then is spiritual (Romans 7:14) by Jesus fulfilling it (Matthew 5:17), making the shadow law into a spiritual reality through His death (Hebrews 10:1). So, the emphasis on spiritual circumcision takes place instead of the physical one. (Romans 2:29, Colossians 2:11)

Now, Apostle Paul bundled the covenant of Mount Sinai as slavery (Galatians 4:21-26), and this covenant of Mount Sinai includes observing the Sabbath by the law (Exodus 20:8-11).

Then, Paul spoke about the seventh day God rested in his other letter (Hebrews 4:4). Right away, he preached observing the sabbath rest is to believe in God (Hebrews 4:3), where believing in God is doing the work of God according to Jesus (John 6:28-29). We do this work of believing in God inside ourselves, God’s temple (1 Corinthians 3:16) because we are priests (1 Peter 2:9), sacrificing our living hearts (Psalm 51:17, 1 Samuel 15:22, Mark 12:33, Hosea 6:6, Romans 12:1) that God search (Jeremiah 17:10).

Think about it. We should believe in God every day, thus having fellowship with God. Likewise for exhorting one another (Hebrews 3:13, Acts 2:47), building the church of God (1 Thessalonians 5:11, 1 Timothy 3:15).

We who believed every day brought us into this rest which is the spoken seventh-day rest, at the same time, working on this “Sabbath rest” in us (temple) yet are innocent (Matthew 12:5). We do this every “Today.” (Hebrews 4:7-9) – a type of eternal rest.

“Blessed is the man whose iniquity the LORD does not count against him, in whose spirit there is no deceit (Psalm 32:2).”

Jesus worked by faith during the Sabbath to prove this point as well. He said God is still working during Sabbath (John 5:16-17). Paul, however, said God has rested from His work during Sabbath (Hebrews 4:10). So there are two types of works here. One that God continues and one that God rested -> God stops speaking to create but continues to speak to let men live (Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3). Similarly, Jesus speaks by faith to heal and resurrect the dead.

**Sidetrack a little bit**

To add, Jesus is the Word[Outcome] that came from God who speaks (John 1:1). Therefore, He is the spoken Word born of the speaking Father. Both are One (John 10:30) because Speak is not without a Word, and a Word is not without Speak. Yet, the One who speaks is higher than the Word spoken (John 5:20), and He subjects everything to Him/Word (“Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3”) but not Himself/Speaker (1 Corinthians 15:27).

So, Jesus is the work that God continuously sustains. “The Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does (John 5:19).” All who believed in Him whom He sent will do the same work as God and rest the same rest as God. “Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do (John 14:12).”

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28).” – Believing in Him, not by mere knowledge but by measurable faith (Matthew 17:20, Romans 12:3).

***

So, I think Sabbath Rest is every “Today” because what we are supposed to do during the traditional sabbath day is what we supposedly do every day. The altar is with us (Hebrews 13:10). Otherwise, what instruction was given by the One instructor (Matthew 23:10) regarding Sabbath rest today that we are not doing every day, at the same time, not under the covenant of Mount Sinai, which Paul said is slavery (Galatians 4:21-26)?

I believe that is the Garden of Eden Sabbath when everything was well-created, no thorns and thistles (Genesis 3:18), auto-watered (Genesis 2:6). Cultivating plants in such a Garden of Eden conditions is just a retiring old man's hobby, bonsai-ing, but Adam is not old. Right?

Hi,

I will try to address some of your thoughts as I am limited on time right now and may try to finish more at a later time.

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is "today"

God very clearly defined when the weekly Sabbath is:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

We should not try to insert our ideas into the very clear scripture that has proceeded out of the mouth of God and written by God's very own finger in stone for its eternal nature.

Let see if your translation of the Sabbath to mean "today" instead of what God wrote how that works.


Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. What does the commandment say? The seventh day is the Sabbath.

How does that work if the Sabbath no longer means the seventh day, but it is just "today" as your claim. We all know according to the scripture the seventh day is the Sabbath, the last day of the week, Sunday is the first day. So did Jesus rest in the tomb "today" and not the seventh day according to the scriptures? This is another way to try to "pluck" the Sabbath commandment out of the Ten Commandments and change it to something that is convenient for man, not God's clearly written Word. There is zero scripture that says the Sabbath is "today" but instead has God's personally written scripture defining the Sabbath commandment. My faith is in God's definition.

Circumcision is not a commandment of God, it is not in the Ten Commandments, and we have three chapters in the NT dedicated to the change on circumcision. Jesus and the disciples all kept the Sabbath. Jesus was crucified because He was accused of breaking the Sabbath, the Pharisees were spying on Jesus to see if He was breaking the Sabbath, which Jesus never did. Had there been a change to one of the commandments of God , written by God's own finger and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 there would not be silence on this change, it would have been an uproar. The fact there is zero scripture stating the Sabbath commandment ended and there is now a new day of worship, means nothing changed. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and unless God or Jesus tells us there is a change to one of His Ten Commandments it is still binding for the people of God, which is what Hebrews 4 reinforces. Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:9-10 and why we see the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus until the very end of time Revelation 14:12 and why the Sabbath continues to be the Lord's chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 and not the day man assigned to God that is not holy or blessed by God, but a the day God deemed as a working day and to do all thy labors. Exodus 20:9

Paul makes it clear about circumcision and how it compares to the commandments of God.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God , the saints keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 and keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

 

[Leaf473]

So there are two types of works here. One that God continues and one that God rested -> God stops speaking to create but continues to speak to let men live (Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3).

That's an interesting way to look at it.

And it would then make sense why Jesus says something about: I am working, and my Father is working in John 5.

And I think that was on a Sabbath day that Jesus said that.

When we commune with God every day of the week, including the Seventh, God is at work in our hearts.

 

[Icyspark]

Well, as a logistics question, did you want to show me where my big leaps in logic were? Taking one step at a time?

Hi Leaf473,

Hmm, I'm pretty sure my previous post to you identified your leaps in logic.

Your conclusion is based on leaps in logic. . . there is no warrant to impose on Romans 1 that everyone is born with an inherent knowledge that murder is evil and that we can read that into the text based on the idea that since "God's qualities being clearly seen" indicates that one of those qualities is "being Good" and that we inherit this knowledge from our parents ???

Romans 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

This passage of Scripture doesn't say what you're imposing upon it. Going back to our previous discussion about good and evil, if I were to use your eisegesis method I could likewise claim that one of the invisible qualities of God is His inherent desire to have all His creation rest every seventh day Sabbath. After all, the Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and Paul calls them "holy, righteous and GOOD." In fact, the law is a reflection of the character of God. Many of the character attributes of God are also applied to His law: good, holy, just, truth, perfect, not burdensome, light, love, righteous, pure, spiritual, unchangeable, eternal.

Or did you want to leave that behind and talk about Romans 7?

Feel free to answer my question about Romans 7. Or not.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

Hmm, I'm pretty sure my previous post to you identified your leaps in logic.

Romans 1:18-20
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

This passage of Scripture doesn't say what you're imposing upon it. Going back to our previous discussion about good and evil, if I were to use your eisegesis method I could likewise claim that one of the invisible qualities of God is His inherent desire to have all His creation rest every seventh day Sabbath. After all, the Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and Paul calls them "holy, righteous and GOOD." In fact, the law is a reflection of the character of God. Many of the character attributes of God are also applied to His law: good, holy, just, truth, perfect, not burdensome, light, love, righteous, pure, spiritual, unchangeable, eternal.





Feel free to answer my question about Romans 7. Or not.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I disagree that you have identified the alleged leaps of logic. If you would like to go over Romans 1 step by step, you may be able to see what I'm saying.

I talk about Romans 7 in post 93.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Hi,

I will try to address some of your thoughts as I am limited on time right now and may try to finish more at a later time.

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is "today"

God very clearly defined when the weekly Sabbath is:

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God

We should not try to insert our ideas into the very clear scripture that has proceeded out of the mouth of God and written by God's very own finger in stone for its eternal nature.

Let see if your translation of the Sabbath to mean "today" instead of what God wrote how that works.


Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. What does the commandment say? The seventh day is the Sabbath.

How does that work if the Sabbath no longer means the seventh day, but it is just "today" as your claim. We all know according to the scripture the seventh day is the Sabbath, the last day of the week, Sunday is the first day. So did Jesus rest in the tomb "today" and not the seventh day according to the scriptures? This is another way to try to "pluck" the Sabbath commandment out of the Ten Commandments and change it to something that is convenient for man, not God's clearly written Word. There is zero scripture that says the Sabbath is "today" but instead has God's personally written scripture defining the Sabbath commandment. My faith is in God's definition.

Circumcision is not a commandment of God, it is not in the Ten Commandments, and we have three chapters in the NT dedicated to the change on circumcision. Jesus and the disciples all kept the Sabbath. Jesus was crucified because He was accused of breaking the Sabbath, the Pharisees were spying on Jesus to see if He was breaking the Sabbath, which Jesus never did. Had there been a change to one of the commandments of God , written by God's own finger and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 there would not be silence on this change, it would have been an uproar. The fact there is zero scripture stating the Sabbath commandment ended and there is now a new day of worship, means nothing changed. The Sabbath is a commandment of God and unless God or Jesus tells us there is a change to one of His Ten Commandments it is still binding for the people of God, which is what Hebrews 4 reinforces. Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:9-10 and why we see the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus until the very end of time Revelation 14:12 and why the Sabbath continues to be the Lord's chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 and not the day man assigned to God that is not holy or blessed by God, but a the day God deemed as a working day and to do all thy labors. Exodus 20:9

Paul makes it clear about circumcision and how it compares to the commandments of God.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God , the saints keep the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12 and keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts as well.

Let me use point forms to explain my thoughts.

How did the Israelites keep the Sabbath in the wilderness?

#1 – Israeli wilderness Sabbath has the Tabernacles. Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days has no temple/synagogue. They are not the same. In short, Jesus did not observe the way the law required (Leviticus 23:3). I don’t think the Bible says singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building is a Sabbath rest requirement. It is just a custom.

Jesus entered the synagogue during Sabbath as a custom (Luke 4:16 “As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath.”). Paul did the same (Acts 17:2, “As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures”). A custom means can do, but optional.

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath is "today"

#2 – Today

Hebrews 4:4-7
For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” And again, as He says in the passage above: “They shall never enter My rest.” Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”​

This scripture talks about entering rest when we are alive, not the afterlife. It uses the weekly seventh-day rest and equates to “today”.

To answer why the majority has this weekly gathering custom, we should not forget that those generations between the apostolic era and us are illiterate and without the internet or phone to connect. These generations can only know the scripture by gathering in one place at an agreed time to listen to those who can read the Bible. And since the world demands all to work physically on weekdays, weekends became the ideal gathering days.

But still, the apostolic believers assemble daily in the Bible (Acts 2:46).

As for us, Paul said remote assembly is acceptable.

Colossians 2:5
For although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I delight to see your orderly condition and firm faith in Christ.​

We are exhorting one another daily like the apostolic believers here and contending for the truth.

The fact there is zero scripture stating the Sabbath commandment ended and there is now a new day of worship, means nothing changed.

#3 – Can anyone confirm the below-mentioned does not refer to the weekly Sabbath?

Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.​

Then you may wonder, how do I perceive the other 9 commandments? We may open a new thread to discuss them, but I see the need to give a quick example of my view. You shall not kill (Exodus 20:13) which Jesus later explains the true understanding of murder without abolishing the law (Matthew 5:21-22). But isn’t Jesus adding to the law?

Likewise, Paul did the same concerning the Sabbath with the understanding of “Today” without breaking the law, since no law says one must go to church during sabbath day. Not even Exodus 20.

Otherwise, can one prove by scripture that the way to observe Sabbath is by singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building on the seventh day? All new testament letters talk "daily."

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.​

Jesus was crucified because He was accused of breaking the Sabbath,

Jesus was killed because He changed the leaders’ perception of the truth. (Matthew 26:57–68; Mark 14:53–65; Luke 22:66–71)

Circumcision is not a commandment of God,

Circumcision is an everlasting commandment of God in Genesis 17:13.

Moreover, if we believe Genesis is written by Moses while he did not personally live through the incidents he recorded, God must have instructed him what to write. God asked Moses to write, “an everlasting covenant” for circumcision in Genesis 17:13. So circumcision is a commandment of God.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Jesus worked by faith during the Sabbath to prove this point as well. He said God is still working during Sabbath (John 5:16-17). Paul, however, said God has rested from His work during Sabbath (Hebrews 4:10). So there are two types of works here. One that God continues and one that God rested -> God stops speaking to create but continues to speak to let men live (Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3). Similarly, Jesus speaks by faith to heal and resurrect the dead.

As “work” has two sides of understanding, earthly and spiritual. Sabbath has two sides as well. One is customary (earthly seventh day), and one is the sabbath of mind and heart (spiritual). God desires the latter.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts as well.

Let me use point forms to explain my thoughts.


#1 – Israeli wilderness Sabbath has the Tabernacles. Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days has no temple/synagogue. They are not the same. In short, Jesus did not observe the way the law required (Leviticus 23:3). I don’t think the Bible says singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building is a Sabbath rest requirement. It is just a custom.

Jesus entered the synagogue during Sabbath as a custom (Luke 4:16 “As was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath.”). Paul did the same (Acts 17:2, “As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures”). A custom means can do, but optional.

Thanks for your response. There is no scripture that says because there is no earthy tabernacle, we no longer have to keep the Sabbath commandment perhaps you can point to that scripture. There is a heavenly tabernacle and God’s finger-written commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells is in heaven. Revelation 11:19 The Sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments and is part of God’s eternal commandments.


I don’t see "optional" as a definition of custom

Definition of custom

custom
noun

/ˈkʌs.təm/

custom noun (USUAL WAY)
a way of behaving or a belief that has been establishedfor a long time:

The commandment of God regarding the Sabbath is to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" We have examples of how to keep it holy throughout the bible. A holy convocation is an assembly to worship God, Jesus as our example and as His custom or common practice was in the Temple on the Sabbath reading God's Word. Is there a law that says we have to keep the Sabbath every week by going to church? No, we have a reasonable Creator who understands sometimes one is sick or other unforeseen circumstances occur and we can still keep the Sabbath holy as per Isaiah 58:13 even if not attending church occasionally, but as the example of Jesus, who we are to model after, His common practice was to be in the Temple reading His Fathers Word on the Sabbath. We are called to be followers of Christ.

#2 – Today

Hebrews 4:4-7
For somewhere He has spoken about the seventh day in this manner: “And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” And again, as He says in the passage above: “They shall never enter My rest.” Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”​

This scripture talks about entering rest when we are alive, not the afterlife. It uses the weekly seventh-day rest and equates to “today”.

Please quote where the seventh day Sabbath is now "today" and there is no longer a seventh day or Sabbath. You again are inserting your ideas into scripture that is simply not there.

Lets go though Hebrews 4 on the passages you highlighted and see what the scriptures actually say.

Hebrews 4:4 And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” This is identifying when God rested from all His works. Please note it does not say "today" it says the seventh day. This is a direct quote from Genesis 2:1-3, which after six days of working God rested on the seventh day, made it holy and blessed it. God defines the the Sabbath as the seventh day not "today" so I am going with God's definition. Exodus 20:10

Hebrews 4: 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” why?

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Those who did not enter into this rest disobeyed and what they disobeyed was the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Please point where it says "today is the seventh day Sabbath". Its not there you are adding to the scripture. God is calling us "today" to not harden our hearts to disobedience, not changing the Sabbath to "today" This is a reference to Psalms 95 and Hebrews 3 which all uses the same language begging people to not put off until tomorrow to start obeying God, when you are called by God "today" don't harden your heart.

If you keep reading...
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

To enter into the Spiritual rest you must also cease from your work (Exodus 20:8-11) just as God did from His (Genesis 2:1-3) What day did God cease from His works? This very passage tells us Hebrews 4:4

#3 – Can anyone confirm the below-mentioned does not refer to the weekly Sabbath?

Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.​

I always wonder why people never back up to the context of this passage, and I can't help to wonder if people try to insert their will into the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

You do know there are more than one Sabbath in the scriptures? There is the weekly Sabbath that started from creation before sin and is a commandment of God Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 and there are the annual sabbath(s) that came after sin and is about the sacrificial system for the forgiveness of sin and all points to Jesus as our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin. It is quite evident if reading this passage in proper context that it is impossible for Colossians 2:14-17 to be referring to the weekly Sabbath and commandment of God.

Lets bring back the context to this passage:

Col2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Is the weekly Sabbath an ordinance? No, it is a commandment of God. Exodus 20

Is the weekly Sabbath against and contrary to us? No, it is holy and blessed Genesis 2:1-3 and all of God's commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3. Once God blesses something it is impossible to reverse Numbers 23:20

Was the Sabbath commandment handwritten? NO! It was written by the finger of God. Exodus 31:18

Right there is the proof the sabbath(s) referred in Colossians 2:14-17 is not about the weekly Sabbath which was before sin and continues to be the Lords chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 so definitely not nailed to the cross.

What this sabbath is referring to are the annuals sabbath(s) that was handwritten by Moses as a witness against us (contrary) Deuteronomy 31:24 and is an ordinance Leviticus 22:9 not one of the commandments of God. The annual sabbaths is all about food and drink offerings and there is no food or drink in the Sabbath commandment. Context matters.

Lastly, the weekly Sabbath does not point forward to the cross so it can't be a shadow of anything, it points back to creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy- means its something that already happened, it is a memorial of creation and is a commandment of God, not a suggestion.

Then you may wonder, how do I perceive the other 9 commandments? We may open a new thread to discuss them, but I see the need to give a quick example of my view. You shall not kill (Exodus 20:13) which Jesus later explains the true understanding of murder without abolishing the law (Matthew 5:21-22). But isn’t Jesus adding to the law?

Jesus came to magnify the law, which means to make greater not lesser Isaiah 42:21 Jesus wants our thoughts changed from the inside out. If we turn our thoughts from hate and anger toward our neighbor to love and compassion, "thou shalt not murder" would automatically be kept. Jesus is not teaching we can break any of God's commandments and make that clear, so we need to be careful what we are teaching.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There is no scripture that we can break any of the commandments of God and you have yet to provide that scripture.
​

Circumcision again is not a commandment of God and because there was a change in physical circumcision that is well-documented in scripture does not mean that we can start deleting the commandments we don't want to keep. There are 3 chapters dedicated to the change in circumcision there are no chapters dedicated to any change of the commandments of God including God's holy Sabbath day. Paul makes this point abundantly clear.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

I pray this helps. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

...if I were to use your eisegesis method I could likewise claim that one of the invisible qualities of God is His inherent desire to have all His creation rest every seventh day Sabbath

Following that train of thought, and leaving aside for the moment the question of whether it is reading something into the scriptures, True!

You could claim that. And that would be a possible conclusion, but not a necessary conclusion.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Thanks for your response.

I believe we are aligned concerning we don’t have a strict rule, ‘must go to church (building).’

We both would agree that a church is a living assembly. To me, you and I are in the church when we speak concerning God in this forum, even if we do not physically meet. That is the essence of holy convocation, an assembly, especially along with other readers.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

Malachi 3:16
At that time those who feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD listened and heard them. So a scroll of remembrance was written before Him regarding those who feared the LORD and honored His name.​

Through our discussion here, I believe God is pleased that we are eager to seek to understand Him better.

I believe our first disagreement is whether it is necessary to travel to a place on a specific seventh day whenever we can.

There is a heavenly tabernacle and God’s finger-written commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where He dwells is in heaven.

Since the heavenly tabernacle is heaven, why must we gather in a place on earth? God is everywhere (Isaiah 40:22). Then, where might the tabernacle be today?

Hebrews 10:19-22
we have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith…​

We are the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27), the house of God (Hebrews 3:6). The tabernacle is with us anytime when we access it with sincere hearts, not by foot.

I say optional because we can still do it, but my actual stand is that it has no value at all. I go to the church building to see people and discuss the truth, not to find God, because God is always with me. If He is with me every minute, why do I need to find Him?

So instead of saying since there is no earthly tabernacle, we no longer gather in a place, I will say the heavenly tabernacle is always with us everywhere, we access it with sincere hearts. The mercy of God is to allow the existence of the internet and smartphones to connect us from afar and discuss His words.

Jesus as our example and as His custom or common practice was in the Temple on the Sabbath reading God's Word.

Maybe I will rephrase it, custom is not a commandment, so not mandatory. So, is Jesus circumcised? Should we follow Jesus to be circumcised because He did it, although the latter scripture says not required? The weight of the circumcision commandment is heavier than the custom of going to synagogue/temple. Yet, it was spiritualized in hearts and no longer required physically because we understood in the heart.

Please quote where the seventh day Sabbath is now "today" and there is no longer a seventh day or Sabbath. You again are inserting your ideas into scripture that is simply not there.

Lets go though Hebrews 4 on the passages you highlighted and see what the scriptures actually say.

Hebrews 4:4 And on the seventh day God rested from all His works.” This is identifying when God rested from all His works. Please note it does not say "today" it says the seventh day. This is a direct quote from Genesis 2:1-3, which after six days of working God rested on the seventh day, made it holy and blessed it. God defines the the Sabbath as the seventh day not "today" so I am going with God's definition. Exodus 20:10

Hebrews 4: 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” why?

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Those who did not enter into this rest disobeyed and what they disobeyed was the Sabbath Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Please point where it says "today is the seventh day Sabbath". Its not there you are adding to the scripture. God is calling us "today" to not harden our hearts to disobedience, not changing the Sabbath to "today" This is a reference to Psalms 95 and Hebrews 3 which all uses the same language begging people to not put off until tomorrow to start obeying God, when you are called by God "today" don't harden your heart.

If you keep reading...
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

To enter into the Spiritual rest you must also cease from your work (Exodus 20:8-11) just as God did from His (Genesis 2:1-3) What day did God cease from His works? This very passage tells us Hebrews 4:4

I get that you are saying to follow what he says “Today” is not referring to rest “Today.” You also mean “designates a certain day, today” means to hear him today so that they can rest on the seventh day.

Hebrew 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.​

What does Joshua’s rest mean? It is not the seventh-day rest.

The scripture combines the weekly seventh-day creation rest and Joshua’s rest by using “designated” a(one) certain day, “Today.” So how can we enter Joshua’s rest by “today” if “today” is just a preparation day, not the entering day?

Anyway, when we read Exodus 20:9, “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,” Technically, it also means not working on the six days is a sin because God also works on the six creation days.

But since we worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24), working or not working physically does not hold much value after Paul classified the Mount Sinai covenant as Slavery (Galatians 4:24-25).

So how do I comprehend “whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work (Hebrews 4:10)”? We know this is not the same work Jesus mentioned God working on the seventh day (John 5:16-17). This work is God’s creation work, setting things in order. Man can also create and set things in an organization. Generally, I see some human leaders set unnecessary goals and tasks in the church organization, burdening everyone. They claim they are doing it for God while God never asks them to do it. They worry about things that God asks us to have faith in him instead.

Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.​

In this work, we need to rest and believe in God. And because we believe in God’s power, we rest from the unnecessary burdens.

The outside work that we do for a living is life sustainability work, which God is still doing as per Jesus (John 5:16-17). The unnecessary burdens from the leaders are not life sustainability works. They were created out of nothing as if they sustain life but did not.

God sustains our lives through His words. His creation is just there as a platform for us to station temporarily.

I always wonder why people never back up to the context of this passage, and I can't help to wonder if people try to insert their will into the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to speak for themselves.

You do know there are more than one Sabbath in the scriptures? There is the weekly Sabbath that started from creation before sin and is a commandment of God Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:8-11 and there are the annual sabbath(s) that came after sin and is about the sacrificial system for the forgiveness of sin and all points to Jesus as our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin. It is quite evident if reading this passage in proper context that it is impossible for Colossians 2:14-17 to be referring to the weekly Sabbath and commandment of God.

Lets bring back the context to this passage:

Col2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Is the weekly Sabbath an ordinance? No, it is a commandment of God. Exodus 20

Is the weekly Sabbath against and contrary to us? No, it is holy and blessed Genesis 2:1-3 and all of God's commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3. Once God blesses something it is impossible to reverse Numbers 23:20

Was the Sabbath commandment handwritten? NO! It was written by the finger of God. Exodus 31:18

Right there is the proof the sabbath(s) referred in Colossians 2:14-17 is not about the weekly Sabbath which was before sin and continues to be the Lords chosen day of worship for all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23 so definitely not nailed to the cross.

What this sabbath is referring to are the annuals sabbath(s) that was handwritten by Moses as a witness against us (contrary) Deuteronomy 31:24 and is an ordinance Leviticus 22:9 not one of the commandments of God. The annual sabbaths is all about food and drink offerings and there is no food or drink in the Sabbath commandment. Context matters.

Lastly, the weekly Sabbath does not point forward to the cross so it can't be a shadow of anything, it points back to creation "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy- means its something that already happened, it is a memorial of creation and is a commandment of God, not a suggestion.

The context of Colossians 2:14 sacrifices is also about the weekly Sabbath day sacrifices mentioned in Numbers 28:9. This Sabbath does not point solely to the annual sabbath.

Do you remember the weekly sabbath day commandment has the death penalty?

Exodus 31:14
Keep the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Anyone who profanes it must surely be put to death. Whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from among his people.​

If working during the seventh day will face the death penalty, and Jesus died on the cross partially because He said God works on the seventh day, so must He, how can we then say it is not related to the cross?

Was the Sabbath commandment handwritten? NO! It was written by the finger of God. Exodus 31:18

Then, God spoke through Jeremiah that He will change from His finger-written stone tablet (2 Corinthians 3:3) to finger-written hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,”declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.​

The Sabbath rest God blessed is the rest Paul asked us to enter. So do we “remember” only on the seventh day? or every day?

Jesus came to magnify the law, which means to make greater not lesser Isaiah 42:21 Jesus wants our thoughts changed from the inside out. If we turn our thoughts from hate and anger toward our neighbor to love and compassion, "thou shalt not murder" would automatically be kept. Jesus is not teaching we can break any of God's commandments and make that clear, so we need to be careful what we are teaching.

Likewise, if we keep every day, the seventh day will be automatically kept.

There is no scripture that we can break any of the commandments of God and you have yet to provide that scripture.

So, you said I break the commandments, to which point out did I break them? By saying singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building on the seventh day not necessary? Which you also agree that it is not commended by God?

Appreciate it if you can help to highlight again which commandment I broke. Otherwise, I will be accused like what Jesus faced. Haha.

Romans 14:5
One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.​

Paul, Himself makes this point abundantly clear that we can treat every day alike.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe we are aligned concerning we don’t have a strict rule, ‘must go to church (building).’

We both would agree that a church is a living assembly. To me, you and I are in the church when we speak concerning God in this forum, even if we do not physically meet. That is the essence of holy convocation, an assembly, especially along with other readers.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

Malachi 3:16
At that time those who feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD listened and heard them. So a scroll of remembrance was written before Him regarding those who feared the LORD and honored His name.​

Through our discussion here, I believe God is pleased that we are eager to seek to understand Him better.

I believe our first disagreement is whether it is necessary to travel to a place on a specific seventh day whenever we can.


Since the heavenly tabernacle is heaven, why must we gather in a place on earth? God is everywhere (Isaiah 40:22). Then, where might the tabernacle be today?

Hebrews 10:19-22
we have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith…​

We are the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27), the house of God (Hebrews 3:6). The tabernacle is with us anytime when we access it with sincere hearts, not by foot.

I say optional because we can still do it, but my actual stand is that it has no value at all. I go to the church building to see people and discuss the truth, not to find God, because God is always with me. If He is with me every minute, why do I need to find Him?

So instead of saying since there is no earthly tabernacle, we no longer gather in a place, I will say the heavenly tabernacle is always with us everywhere, we access it with sincere hearts. The mercy of God is to allow the existence of the internet and smartphones to connect us from afar and discuss His words.


Maybe I will rephrase it, custom is not a commandment, so not mandatory. So, is Jesus circumcised? Should we follow Jesus to be circumcised because He did it, although the latter scripture says not required? The weight of the circumcision commandment is heavier than the custom of going to synagogue/temple. Yet, it was spiritualized in hearts and no longer required physically because we understood in the heart.


I get that you are saying to follow what he says “Today” is not referring to rest “Today.” You also mean “designates a certain day, today” means to hear him today so that they can rest on the seventh day.

Hebrew 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.​

What does Joshua’s rest mean? It is not the seventh-day rest.

The scripture combines the weekly seventh-day creation rest and Joshua’s rest by using “designated” a(one) certain day, “Today.” So how can we enter Joshua’s rest by “today” if “today” is just a preparation day, not the entering day?

Anyway, when we read Exodus 20:9, “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,” Technically, it also means not working on the six days is a sin because God also works on the six creation days.

But since we worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24), working or not working physically does not hold much value after Paul classified the Mount Sinai covenant as Slavery (Galatians 4:24-25).

So how do I comprehend “whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work (Hebrews 4:10)”? We know this is not the same work Jesus mentioned God working on the seventh day (John 5:16-17). This work is God’s creation work, setting things in order. Man can also create and set things in an organization. Generally, I see some human leaders set unnecessary goals and tasks in the church organization, burdening everyone. They claim they are doing it for God while God never asks them to do it. They worry about things that God asks us to have faith in him instead.

Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.​

In this work, we need to rest and believe in God. And because we believe in God’s power, we rest from the unnecessary burdens.

The outside work that we do for a living is life sustainability work, which God is still doing as per Jesus (John 5:16-17). The unnecessary burdens from the leaders are not life sustainability works. They were created out of nothing as if they sustain life but did not.

God sustains our lives through His words. His creation is just there as a platform for us to station temporarily.


The context of Colossians 2:14 sacrifices is also about the weekly Sabbath day sacrifices mentioned in Numbers 28:9. This Sabbath does not point solely to the annual sabbath.

Do you remember the weekly sabbath day commandment has the death penalty?

Exodus 31:14
Keep the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Anyone who profanes it must surely be put to death. Whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from among his people.​

If working during the seventh day will face the death penalty, and Jesus died on the cross partially because He said God works on the seventh day, so must He, how can we then say it is not related to the cross?


Then, God spoke through Jeremiah that He will change from His finger-written stone tablet (2 Corinthians 3:3) to finger-written hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,”declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.​

The Sabbath rest God blessed is the rest Paul asked us to enter. So do we “remember” only on the seventh day? or every day?


Likewise, if we keep every day, the seventh day will be automatically kept.


So, you said I break the commandments, to which point out did I break them? By saying singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building on the seventh day not necessary? Which you also agree that it is not commended by God?

Appreciate it if you can help to highlight again which commandment I broke. Otherwise, I will be accused like what Jesus faced. Haha.

Romans 14:5
One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.​

Paul, Himself makes this point abundantly clear that we can treat every day alike.

God bless

I am going to start by showing how when we start adding our words it changes the meaning, we should be careful of doing this.

I will use the example of what I stated here:

There is no scripture that we can break any of the commandments of God and you have yet to provide that scripture.

This is how you translated my statement:

So, you said I break the commandments, to which point out did I break them? By saying singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building on the seventh day not necessary? Which you also agree that it is not commended by God?

Please show me where I said YOU break the commandments. What I said is there is no scripture giving us the permission to break the commandments of God. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, written by God’s own finger, spoken by God’s own voice, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy where God resides and is in heaven. Revelation 11:19. I don’t think God is going to be okay with those saved keeping 9 of the Ten Commandments and asking to skip Sabbath worship in heaven. Isaiah 66:22-23. Gods will for us is not different in heaven as it is on this earth. Matthew 6:9-13

You still have not provided one scripture that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath commandment. You have provided scripture out of context similar what you did with my words. There is no scripture that says the Sabbath commandment is no longer a commandment and we no longer have to obey.

Paul in Romans 14 is not referring to THE SABBATH and if one of the commandment of God was going to end, it would be crystal clear in scripture, just like it was given. If you read the context of the whole chapter of Romans 14 you will see the Sabbath is not mentioned once and the context again is food similar to Colossians 2:16 which are the feast days as I already proven to you the sabbath(s) that has been referred to are ordinances that are handwritten by Moses, not the commandment finger-written by God and have to do with the sacrificial system that all point to Jesus who became our sacrifice for sins and why burnt and food offerings are no longer needed for the forgiveness of sin, because the blood of Jesus is perfect for the forgiveness of sin where animal blood never was see Hebrews 10. The Sabbath continues long after the cross, and after Jesus died (so not nailed to the cross) Luke 23:56 and we see the apostles keeping the Sabbath decades after Jesus ascended back to heaven. The apostles preached every Sabbath teaching God’s Word to Jews, Gentiles and whole cities. Acts 13:44, Acts 18:4

The commandment is to keep the Sabbath day holy. Exodus 20:8-11. The Sabbath is a holy convocation Lev 23:3 and yes Jesus is everywhere and we should worship Him daily, but that does not change or delete the Sabbath commandment.

The fact the Sabbath is still called the Sabbath in all the scripture shows it never ended and is be reverend. God defines the seventh day as the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 and it is the day to keep holy, because God blessed and sanctified the seventh day Sabbath Genesis 2:1-3 the Sabbath is set aside for holy use, all other days are working days according to God. Exodus 20:9 God spoke it, God wrote it and I believe Him. It is God’s holy day and we are commanded to keep holy His Sabbath day becuase we are made in His image and to follow Him.

Scripture says the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12 The Sabbath is a commandment of God, not a suggestion, so for me, I am going to continue to have faith in the words God spoke and God wrote and believe Him when He says if we keep the Sabbath by doing His ways and not ours on His holy day He blesses us Isaiah 58:13-14 and gives us spiritual rest as shown in Hebrews 4.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

God bless you in seeking His Word.

 

[Leaf473]

I believe we are aligned concerning we don’t have a strict rule, ‘must go to church (building).’

We both would agree that a church is a living assembly. To me, you and I are in the church when we speak concerning God in this forum, even if we do not physically meet. That is the essence of holy convocation, an assembly, especially along with other readers.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

Malachi 3:16
At that time those who feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD listened and heard them. So a scroll of remembrance was written before Him regarding those who feared the LORD and honored His name.​

Through our discussion here, I believe God is pleased that we are eager to seek to understand Him better.

I believe our first disagreement is whether it is necessary to travel to a place on a specific seventh day whenever we can.


Since the heavenly tabernacle is heaven, why must we gather in a place on earth? God is everywhere (Isaiah 40:22). Then, where might the tabernacle be today?

Hebrews 10:19-22
we have the confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith…​

We are the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27), the house of God (Hebrews 3:6). The tabernacle is with us anytime when we access it with sincere hearts, not by foot.

I say optional because we can still do it, but my actual stand is that it has no value at all. I go to the church building to see people and discuss the truth, not to find God, because God is always with me. If He is with me every minute, why do I need to find Him?

So instead of saying since there is no earthly tabernacle, we no longer gather in a place, I will say the heavenly tabernacle is always with us everywhere, we access it with sincere hearts. The mercy of God is to allow the existence of the internet and smartphones to connect us from afar and discuss His words.


Maybe I will rephrase it, custom is not a commandment, so not mandatory. So, is Jesus circumcised? Should we follow Jesus to be circumcised because He did it, although the latter scripture says not required? The weight of the circumcision commandment is heavier than the custom of going to synagogue/temple. Yet, it was spiritualized in hearts and no longer required physically because we understood in the heart.


I get that you are saying to follow what he says “Today” is not referring to rest “Today.” You also mean “designates a certain day, today” means to hear him today so that they can rest on the seventh day.

Hebrew 4:8
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.​

What does Joshua’s rest mean? It is not the seventh-day rest.

The scripture combines the weekly seventh-day creation rest and Joshua’s rest by using “designated” a(one) certain day, “Today.” So how can we enter Joshua’s rest by “today” if “today” is just a preparation day, not the entering day?

Anyway, when we read Exodus 20:9, “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,” Technically, it also means not working on the six days is a sin because God also works on the six creation days.

But since we worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24), working or not working physically does not hold much value after Paul classified the Mount Sinai covenant as Slavery (Galatians 4:24-25).

So how do I comprehend “whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work (Hebrews 4:10)”? We know this is not the same work Jesus mentioned God working on the seventh day (John 5:16-17). This work is God’s creation work, setting things in order. Man can also create and set things in an organization. Generally, I see some human leaders set unnecessary goals and tasks in the church organization, burdening everyone. They claim they are doing it for God while God never asks them to do it. They worry about things that God asks us to have faith in him instead.

Matthew 23:4
They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.​

In this work, we need to rest and believe in God. And because we believe in God’s power, we rest from the unnecessary burdens.

The outside work that we do for a living is life sustainability work, which God is still doing as per Jesus (John 5:16-17). The unnecessary burdens from the leaders are not life sustainability works. They were created out of nothing as if they sustain life but did not.

God sustains our lives through His words. His creation is just there as a platform for us to station temporarily.


The context of Colossians 2:14 sacrifices is also about the weekly Sabbath day sacrifices mentioned in Numbers 28:9. This Sabbath does not point solely to the annual sabbath.

Do you remember the weekly sabbath day commandment has the death penalty?

Exodus 31:14
Keep the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Anyone who profanes it must surely be put to death. Whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from among his people.​

If working during the seventh day will face the death penalty, and Jesus died on the cross partially because He said God works on the seventh day, so must He, how can we then say it is not related to the cross?


Then, God spoke through Jeremiah that He will change from His finger-written stone tablet (2 Corinthians 3:3) to finger-written hearts.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,”declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.​

The Sabbath rest God blessed is the rest Paul asked us to enter. So do we “remember” only on the seventh day? or every day?


Likewise, if we keep every day, the seventh day will be automatically kept.


So, you said I break the commandments, to which point out did I break them? By saying singing hymns, reading the bible, and praying in the church building on the seventh day not necessary? Which you also agree that it is not commended by God?

Appreciate it if you can help to highlight again which commandment I broke. Otherwise, I will be accused like what Jesus faced. Haha.

Romans 14:5
One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.​

Paul, Himself makes this point abundantly clear that we can treat every day alike.

God bless

I've been reading Sabbath discussions for several years now, and you've raised lots of points I hadn't heard before. Lots to ponder!

In this part here,

To me, you and I are in the church when we speak concerning God in this forum, even if we do not physically meet.

you took the words right out of my mouth

 

[Leaf473]

I notice that these discussions are sometimes presented as obedience versus disobedience.

I don't know of anyone on here who says Let's disobey the commandments of God. The real discussion is about which commandments we keep and how we go about keeping them imo.

So of late one issue on this thread is attending a church building to sing, pray, and listen to a sermon on the 7th Day.

Relating it to the thread topic, I don't think Adam and Eve were told to go to a building. At least, that's not a necessary conclusion.

 

[Cornelius8L]

I am going to start by showing

Hey, thanks for helping me better understand your statement. Because I thought you said I broke the commandments when I was talking about magnifying the Sabbath Commandments, not skipping the Sabbath. So for you to request for the scripture to support the breaking of commandments in such a context doesn’t make sense to me.

You still have not provided one scripture that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath commandment.

Paul in Romans 14 is not referring to THE SABBATH

Anyway, again, you are asking for scripture that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath commandment. I have provided Hebrews 4 and Romans 14:5. But I think you misread the context of scripture yourself. You deny the word “everyday” which refers to EVERY DAY. Every day means all types of days. This “everyday” supports my view of the sabbath “every day =Today” mentioned in Hebrews 4 that you disagreed. The word “Sabbath” is not mentioned, but the HEAVIER word “every day” is used instead. Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of “every day”?

With this, I can even say unless we observe Sabbath every day, we will break the Sabbath commandment since no scripture, including Romans 14:5 shall be broken.

What this sabbath is referring to are the annuals sabbath(s) that was handwritten by Moses as a witness against us (contrary) Deuteronomy 31:24 and is an ordinance Leviticus 22:9 not one of the commandments of God. The annual sabbaths is all about food and drink offerings and there is no food or drink in the Sabbath commandment. Context matters.

You may also misinterpret Sabbath mentioned in Colossians 2:16. As your own point is that it involves sacrifice and is against us (NIV) and contrary to us (KJV), aside from the weekly Sabbath day sacrifices mentioned in Numbers 28:9, I have also answered by showing you the consequence of not following the stated commandment in Exodus 31:14, which is death. Yet, you disagree with Colossians 2:16 referring weekly Sabbath (as well), but you remove the death penalty for not keeping the weekly Sabbath. So then, where is the scripture that removes the death penalty for not keeping the weekly Sabbath other than Colossians 2:16? If the death penalty is hand-written as you may claim later nailed on the cross, it will strengthen my point of Colossians 2:16 referring to the weekly Sabbath (as well).


Addressing your concern, “Commandments,”

Matthew 22:36-39
"Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’​

The ten commandments are God’s finger-written in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. But “And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength (Deuteronomy 6:5)” is hand-written. “love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18)” is hand-written. Yet, Jesus placed these two above all. So what is the definition of commandments in Jesus’ view?

Anyway, I will provide some scriptures on Jesus and His disciples breaking the Sabbath Commandments since you insist.

Apostle John made such a conclusion after an earlier incident, “Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:18).” – This statement is a conclusion of Apostle John about the action of Jesus. It is not a quote of some accusations.

And strictly speaking. “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27)” also changes the essence of “remember the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8).”

So it seems we disagree, but in peace

God bless.

 

[Cornelius8L]

As “work” has two sides of understanding, earthly and spiritual. Sabbath has two sides as well. One is customary (earthly seventh day), and one is the sabbath of mind and heart (spiritual). God desires the latter.

Therefore, I was saying there are two sides to understanding the written Sabbath in the scripture. One is customary (earthly - seventh day), and one is the sabbath of mind and heart (spiritual - every day). My view is God desires the latter.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hey, thanks for helping me better understand your statement. Because I thought you said I broke the commandments when I was talking about magnifying the Sabbath Commandments, not skipping the Sabbath. So for you to request for the scripture to support the breaking of commandments in such a context doesn’t make sense to me.

That’s not what was stated, you’re changing the argument now, but thats okay.

Anyway, again, you are asking for scripture that says we no longer have to keep the Sabbath commandment. I have provided Hebrews 4 and Romans 14:5. But I think you misread the context of scripture yourself. You deny the word “everyday” which refers to EVERY DAY. Every day means all types of days. This “everyday” supports my view of the sabbath “every day =Today” mentioned in Hebrews 4 that you disagreed. The word “Sabbath” is not mentioned, but the HEAVIER word “every day” is used instead. Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of “every day”?

Could you please point to the scripture that says in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath is everyday. Should be a clear as when God deemed the seventh day as the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10 I went through those scriptures you referenced in Hebrews and not once does it say the Sabbath is now everyday.

Romans 14:5 certainly does not say the Sabbath is “everyday” either, you are reading into the scriptures on what is simply not there. The Sabbath is not even mentioned in that verse or all of Romans 14 and if context is not what you’re interested in, you are heading in the right direction. People are not God and God esteemed the seventh day and set is aside from all others as a day to be holy to God Genesis 2:1-3 Isaiah 58:13 and to man Exodus 20:8-11. Still going to believe God on this.

You may also misinterpret Sabbath mentioned in Colossians 2:16. As your own point is that it involves sacrifice and is against us (NIV) and contrary to us (KJV), aside from the weekly Sabbath day sacrifices mentioned in Numbers 28:9, I have also answered by showing you the consequence of not following the stated commandment in Exodus 31:14, which is death. Yet, you disagree with Colossians 2:16 referring weekly Sabbath (as well), but you remove the death penalty for not keeping the weekly Sabbath. So then, where is the scripture that removes the death penalty for not keeping the weekly Sabbath other than Colossians 2:16? If the death penalty is hand-written as you may claim later nailed on the cross, it will strengthen my point of Colossians 2:16 referring to the weekly Sabbath (as well).

There are no misunderstandings on my side and the context starts in Colossians 2:14 and the Sabbath is not an ordinance or handwritten by Moses, it is a commandment of God written by the finger of God. There are no animal sacrifices in the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-11 and the Sabbath was before the fall of man from the beginning of creation. Genesis 2:1-3

Under the old covenant Levitical Priesthood and earthly Sanctuary the shadow laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings for remission of sins were linked to every day of the week. For example there was a daily continual burnt offering (Numbers 28:3-8); the weekly Sabbath offerings (Numbers 28:9-10). These included twice as many sin offerings as the other days of the week; the monthly new moon offerings (Numbers 28:11-13) and the yearly feast day offerings (Passover - Numbers 28:11-14; Day of first fruits - Numbers 28:11-24; Feast of trumpets - Numbers 29:1-6; Day of Atonement - Numbers 29:7-11; Leviticus 16:5-10; 20-22; and Feast of Tabernacles - Numbers 29:12-40.

All the above came after the fall (sin) of mankind for atonement for sins all pointing to Jesus and His ministration in the new covenant based on better promises (no more animal sacrifices and sin offerings). The Sabbath however was made before the fall of mankind and before sin. So the fulfilment of all these laws point to Jesus as Gods' lamb or sin offering (John 1:29' 36; Hebrews 10:10) and our Great High Priest (Hebrews 7) who now ministers in the heavenly Sanctuary before God based on the better promises of the new covenant in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was only a copy (Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9). None of the above delete the week days of the week or the creation Sabbath made on the "seventh day" of the week that are a part of God's creation. God's 4th commandment in the new covenant is still one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11). All laws for remission of sins in both the old and new covenant were given after the fall (sin) of mankind for atonement of sin pointing to Jesus and His death on the cross and His work as our true High Priest in the new covenant in the heavenly Sanctuary. All the laws for remission of sins are shadow laws of things to come. Gods' 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness. The Sabbath and weekly days at creation were all made before sin when mankind was sinless so are not effected by the old and new covenant laws of atonement and are everlasting. None of the days of the week are deleted at the cross. Only the old covenant laws of remission of sin which were all "shadows of things to come pointing to the body of Christ". - Colossians 2:16-17

Addressing your concern, “Commandments,”

Matthew 22:36-39
"Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’​

The ten commandments are God’s finger-written in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. But “And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength (Deuteronomy 6:5)” is hand-written. “love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18)” is hand-written. Yet, Jesus placed these two above all. So what is the definition of commandments in Jesus’ view?

The Ten Commandments are finger-written in Exodus 20. Deuteronomy 5 was Moses repeating the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20. There are other laws in the law of Moses that are still applicable today like the greatest commandments which is shown by keeping the commandments of God. 1 John 5:3 they are not ordinances and not part of the sacrificial system.

Anyway, I will provide some scriptures on Jesus and His disciples breaking the Sabbath Commandments since you insist.

Apostle John made such a conclusion after an earlier incident, “Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:18).” – This statement is a conclusion of Apostle John about the action of Jesus. It is not a quote of some accusations.

Sad you would take the Pharisee side who were spying on Jesus and accused Him of breaking the Sabbath, which He did not. John 15:10, 1 Peter 2:21-22. They also accused Him of not being equal to God- do you believe that too?

And strictly speaking. “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27)” also changes the essence of “remember the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8).”

How does that change anything? Man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 right before the first Sabbath in the presence of God the way the Sabbath was always intended before the fall of man. Once Jesus comes back the saints will once again worship the Lord on His holy Sabbath in His presence the way it was always intended. Isaiah 66:22-23 Sin separated man from God and since we can’t celebrate His holy Sabbath in His presence we do so through His Spirit. The scripture is filled with how to keep the Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11. A day not to do secular work but to do the ways of the Lord Isaiah 58:13, it is a holy convocation Lev 23:3 and we see Jesus as His custom and example in the Temple reading God’s Word. If you would like more on how to keep the Sabbath according to the scriptures I would be happy to share, but it seems you’re more interested in trying to disprove the Sabbath commandment, than trying to keep it. We have free will, but if you would like detailed scripture on how to keep the Sabbath, let me know.

Unless you have a new point, I probably will be bowing out of this conversation and let the scriptures I posted speak for themselves. We should all be seeking to worship in Truth and Sprit and Jesus tells us not to worship in vain by obeying traditions over the commandments of God and is directly referencing the Ten Commandments Matthew 15:3-9. I truly wish you well in seeking His Word.

God bless and Happy Sabbath!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I notice that these discussions are sometimes presented as obedience versus disobedience.

I don't know of anyone on here who says Let's disobey the commandments of God. The real discussion is about which commandments we keep and how we go about keeping them imo.

So of late one issue on this thread is attending a church building to sing, pray, and listen to a sermon on the 7th Day.

Relating it to the thread topic, I don't think Adam and Eve were told to go to a building. At least, that's not a necessary conclusion.

Interesting, previously you said you didn’t need to keep any commandments and now it is how to obey the commandments. The scriptures are a lamp to our feet Psalms 119:105 so our ideas don’t really matter, if one if wanting to follow God. The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath holy, so best to find direction from God’s Word and not based on our own ideas.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Therefore, I was saying there are two sides to understanding the written Sabbath in the scripture. One is customary (earthly - seventh day), and one is the sabbath of mind and heart (spiritual - every day). My view is God desires the latter.

According to the scriptures, there is only one weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11. There is spiritual rest which is given when once ceases their work as God did from His. Hebrews 4:10. God ceased from His work on the seventh day. Genesis 2:1-3, Hebrews 4:4. So to receive the spiritual rest in Christ we need to cease from our works like the commandment tells us to on the seventh day Exodus 20:8-11 and the example of God Genesis 2:1-3. The Sabbath is the door to the Spiritual rest in Christ. Those who disobeyed Hebrews 4:6 did not enter into this rest and what they disobeyed was the Sabbath. Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21. The Sabbath rest remains for the people of God Hebrews 4:9, I can only speak for myself, but I want to be one of God’s people and God identifies His people as Sabbath keeping Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 Revelation 14:12