If the majority end up in ect

[Fervent]

I find it impossible to discuss anything with you.

Probably because I call you on your circularity. Whatever source agrees with your pre-determined position is credible, but those that point out its flaws are automatically incredible and require an arbitrary degree of scrutiny. It's clear you're not interested in discovering the truth because you think you already know.

 

[Hmm]

You should stick to talking to reasonable people like me for instance.

I find you very reasonable, especially when you agree with me.

 

[RickReads]

I find you very reasonable, especially when you agree with me.

I don't recall that incident.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Christ said Satan was a murder from the beginning. Satan's action in Eden was an act of murder. The end of the story ends with death and Satan being defeated and the entire creation being reconciled and restored to their original pre-fallen condition and restored back to God.

A New Heaven and a New Earth is not a restoration to the Pre-Fall condition???

 

[Mark Quayle]

Colossians 2:15 states Christ had victory.. "In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

But according to most traditions Satan will have victory and the majority of the world will find themselves in a hopeless situation due to their own unwillingness or according to John Calvin the simple fact God chose only a few to redeem.

How can this be so when victory of the cross and Christ defeated the evil serpent who destroyed creation in the very beginning? Does Satan actually have the victory when only a few gain the gift of redemption?

Nobody "gains the gift of redemption." GOD chose them and redeemed them. You are looking at this backwards. This is about God, not about man.

But to deal with your notion that God does not have the victory without Universal Salvation, there is a lot more to God winning than Heaven vs Hell. This is not, for one big thing, a dualistic proposition. This is God, and his particular creation, and his glory, for which all this 6000 year-long (or 15 billion, if you prefer) process is about. It is not about who wins those God made for lesser purposes. (The notion is absurd that Satan will, from his place in eternal conscious torment, consider himself to have won anything, regardless of how many "others" are "there". (I say there, as if we know they will be conscious of others in that place, and as though they will at least have the satisfaction that they are not the only ones.))

 

[Cockcrow]

most will be in Hell, the Bible is clear even the righteous are scarcely saved (1 Peter 4:18, Luke 13:23-24) Jesus purchased his elect on the cross (Hebrews 2:9, 1 Peter 1:2, Acts 20:28) Satan will be thrown into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:10)

 

[Jipsah]

Uh huh, tell me again how justice is an evil.

eternal torture isn't just.

 

[Jipsah]

But to deal with your notion that God does not have the victory without Universal Salvation, there is a lot more to God winning than Heaven vs Hell.

I hope so, if He has designed the universe in such a way that the majority of the cteatures He put in it, and whom He allegedly loves, will be tortured forever. Hard to put a positive spin on that, isn't it?

This is not, for one big thing, a dualistic proposition. This is God, and his particular creation, and his glory, for which all this 6000 year-long (or 15 billion, if you prefer) process is about.

The glory of torturing your creatures forever, because thery've offended you. Doesn't seem all that glorious from our perspective, does it?

It is not about who wins those God made for lesser purposes.

’Tis all a chequerboard of nights and days
Where Destiny with men for pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays."
Except in this case, it isn't back in the closet, but into the fire to burn forever.

(The notion is absurd that Satan will, from his place in eternal conscious torment, consider himself to have won anything, regardless of how many "others" are "there".

Not as if Satan is anybody special either; God created him and can as easily uncreate him. He was created as a Bad Guy, and his fate was certain from day one. Imaging Satan as a little evil god competing with God is ridiculous, God could have flicked Satan aside at any time, and ultimately does.

You're still stuck with the idea that God does something that would be considered evil in any human being, for motives that would be seen as twisted and sociopathic in any human being, and that it was part of His plan from the beginning to do so.

Sorry mate, I ain't buying it. "Father forgive them. for they know not what they do" replaced by God taking satisfaction at the damned writhing in flames while He and the blessed point and laugh. In a word, "No".

 

[Fervent]

eternal torture isn't just.

That's just like...your opinion, man. I prefer letting God decide what is and isn't just.

 

[Jipsah]

That's just like...your opinion, man. I prefer letting God decide what is and isn't just.

Strangely enough, I thought "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was an example of God's justice. You couldn't kill someone who knocked your tooth out, that would be unjust. But eternal torture for would blow that standard of justice, wouldn't it?

 

[Fervent]

Strangely enough, I thought "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was an example of God's justice. You couldn't kill someone who knocked your tooth out, that would be unjust. But eternal torture for would blow that standard of justice, wouldn't it?

Not at all, since the offense is eternal and continual.

 

[Jipsah]

Not at all, since the offense is eternal and continual.

Have you ever managed to do anything eternally?

 

[Fervent]

Have you ever managed to do anything eternally?

Yes...put my faith in Jesus. Hell isn't punishment for past deeds, retribution was done at the cross. Hell is for unbelief, which continues after the grave. So it's not about what has been done, but what those in hell continue to do for eternity in their rejection of Christ.

 

[wendykvw]

Nobody "gains the gift of redemption." GOD chose them and redeemed them. You are looking at this backwards. This is about God, not about man.

But to deal with your notion that God does not have the victory without Universal Salvation, there is a lot more to God winning than Heaven vs Hell. This is not, for one big thing, a dualistic proposition. This is God, and his particular creation, and his glory, for which all this 6000 year-long (or 15 billion, if you prefer) process is about. It is not about who wins those God made for lesser purposes. (The notion is absurd that Satan will, from his place in eternal conscious torment, consider himself to have won anything, regardless of how many "others" are "there". (I say there, as if we know they will be conscious of others in that place, and as though they will at least have the satisfaction that they are not the only ones.))

Thank you for sharing the view of Calvinism. The universal restoration view is a mix of both Calvinism and armenianism.

 

[wendykvw]

A New Heaven and a New Earth is not a restoration to the Pre-Fall condition???

If not why not. Can you expand on why you believe a new heaven and new earth refutes restoration of all creation?

 

[wendykvw]

most will be in Hell, the Bible is clear even the righteous are scarcely saved (1 Peter 4:18, Luke 13:23-24) Jesus purchased his elect on the cross (Hebrews 2:9, 1 Peter 1:2, Acts 20:28) Satan will be thrown into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:10)

So what you are essentially saying is Adam was strong enough to condemn all people but Christ was not strong enough to redeem all people.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I hope so, if He has designed the universe in such a way that the majority of the cteatures He put in it, and whom He allegedly loves, will be tortured forever. Hard to put a positive spin on that, isn't it?

Seems easy to put a negative spin on it though. But then, it is a false characterization of the facts. You point at just the demise of the unGodly, instead of God's use for them. Read Romans 9, again, particularly vss 22 and 23.

The glory of torturing your creatures forever, because thery've offended you. Doesn't seem all that glorious from our perspective, does it?

You continue with the false characterization. By the way, do you accept the authority and accuracy of Scripture? Do you believe in plenary verbal inspiration of the Scriptures?

You're still stuck with the idea that God does something that would be considered evil in any human being, for motives that would be seen as twisted and sociopathic in any human being, and that it was part of His plan from the beginning to do so.

Sorry mate, I ain't buying it. "Father forgive them. for they know not what they do" replaced by God taking satisfaction at the damned writhing in flames while He and the blessed point and laugh. In a word, "No".

False characterization continues.

You also have, as a signature line, "To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God - George McDonald"

To say, for example, that it is wrong for a man to kill another —would you then transfer that judgement to God when he kills a mere man? George McDonald would agree that God is not like us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Strangely enough, I thought "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was an example of God's justice. You couldn't kill someone who knocked your tooth out, that would be unjust. But eternal torture for would blow that standard of justice, wouldn't it?

Then you don't understand what sin is, or what it did. I hesitate to go further with claims considering what you are not taking into account or don't know. But I would hope, at least, that you would agree that our judgement concerning God's standards can hardly be accurate, no?

God is altogether just. As concerns eternal conscious torment, his condemnation of the sinner is according to his sin —precise, and thorough.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thank you for sharing the view of Calvinism. The universal restoration view is a mix of both Calvinism and armenianism.

Not sure what you mean. What are you referring to, exactly, by "The universal restoration view", to say it "is a mix of both Calvinism and armenianism"?

 

[Der Alte]

@wendykvw @Jipsah
.....Way back in the OT @ the time of Noah, was it reasonable when God destroyed all mankind, except Noah and his family; old, young, male, female, children, infants, mentally handicapped etc. Surely the mentally handicapped, small children and infants could not have committed a sin worthy of death.
.....@ the time of Job, was it reasonable when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plains; old, young, male, female, children, infants, mentally handicapped etc. Surely the mentally handicapped, small children and infants could not have committed a sin worthy of death.
.....When God ordered the nation of Israel to invade Canaan a kill every living thing; old, young, male, female, children, infants, mentally handicapped etc. Surely the mentally handicapped, small children and infants could not have committed a sin worthy of death.