Do nice/good guys finish last?

[linux.poet]

Now I’m talking to homesteaders. They’re married and the majority are stay-at-home wives with families and side income through blogging or YouTube. They cook, bake, garden, preserve, and are adept at home management. Many have large families and industrious wives who homeschool. There’s no cleaning service or nanny. They keep it tidy. And most of their husbands don’t cook.

I think the vast majority of women, myself included, aren't up to that high standard. I'd consider myself fortunate if I'm able to sew competently and cook/garden decently. Maybe I could gradually build up to this over time. Modern women aren't educated on this.

Looking at such content would likely fuel some depression. And you are actually happy doing this? Wow, my marriage prospects are doomed.

 

[Sketcher]

I suggest you go on youtube and watch channels like the better bachelor or strong successful male and learn about todays dating culture with terms like feminist and MGTOW you will be surprised at how bad things are now for singles trying to find their life partner and a good marriage now.

They'll teach you more ways to watch your back, which is important. But you probably don't want to be those guys. It's critical to absorb content from guys you want to be more like.

 

[Sketcher]

I think the vast majority of women, myself included, aren't up to that high standard. I'd consider myself fortunate if I'm able to sew competently and cook/garden decently. Maybe I could gradually build up to this over time. Modern women aren't educated on this.

Looking at such content would likely fuel some depression. And you are actually happy doing this? Wow, my marriage prospects are doomed.

I would suggest building up to it. Why not improve yourself and your ability to live well? More to offer a man, and if you stay single, more to offer yourself.

 

[linux.poet]

I would suggest building up to it. Why not improve yourself and your ability to live well? More to offer a man, and if you stay single, more to offer yourself.

I agree, but I'm wondering if bella and these other women have a gift for these kinds of things. Though I probably don't have the greatest foundation due to my mom's inadequacy and insecurities. *headscratch* Perhaps women all have different things that come easier to us.

 

[Sketcher]

I agree, but I'm wondering if bella and these other women have a gift for these kinds of things. Though I probably don't have the greatest foundation due to my mom's inadequacy and insecurities. *headscratch* Perhaps women all have different things that come easier to us.

You don't need to have a gift to learn a life skill. Spend enough time at it, and people will think you're gifted when you really weren't.

 

[linux.poet]

You don't need to have a gift to learn a life skill. Spend enough time at it, and people will think you're gifted when you really weren't.

Give me another 10 years.

And now we have an answer to the topic starter's question - it's not nice guys who finish last, it's women who had abusive parents and didn't teach them homesteading skills who really finish last! I'll just go bemoan my virginity in the wilderness now, because my parents killed my marriage prospects. I have no hope against bella and her army of Proverbs 31 competition. Might as well give up now and go back to writing debates and playing chess. Oh well, it was fun while I was thinking about it.

 

[Cute Peonies]

Now I’m talking to homesteaders. They’re married and the majority are stay-at-home wives with families and side income through blogging or YouTube. They cook, bake, garden, preserve, and are adept at home management. Many have large families and industrious wives who homeschool. There’s no cleaning service or nanny. They keep it tidy. And most of their husbands don’t cook.

You've just described my future life haha except the large family and the YouTube hustle. I'm working online so the side income is kinda secured already ^^

To reply to the OP, go where you are loved and appreciated. Don't chase after girls who don't want you.

 

[Sketcher]

Give me another 10 years.

And now we have an answer to the topic starter's question - it's not nice guys who finish last, it's women who had abusive parents and didn't teach them homesteading skills who really finish last! I'll just go bemoan my virginity in the wilderness now, because my parents killed my marriage prospects. I have no hope against bella and her army of Proverbs 31 competition. Might as well give up now and go back to writing debates and playing chess. Oh well, it was fun while I was thinking about it.

All the more reason to get started now.

 

[bèlla]

You've just described my future life haha except the large family and the YouTube hustle. I'm working online so the side income is kinda secured already ^^

Wonderful! Take advantage of your singleness to hone your skills and develop interests. It will be a blessing to your spouse and of use when the unexpected occurs.

Homesteading wasn’t the motivation when I began long ago. It was my future companion. I wanted him to have the best and be able to demonstrate how my time was spent. I kept at it until my proficiency could be monetized. And prepared my daughter to do the same.

It’s harder to forgo income when you have responsibilities and demands. Or expand your skills dramatically. Because your time is divided. Singleness is the period to put it in place. You can go all-in. Then you’re not trying to come home. You’re already there.

Homemaking gets a lot of flack. But lose a job, get sick, or watch inflation run amok and he’ll be glad to have you. You’re not buying the same goods or spending identically when you do things from scratch. And you’ll probably have a multi-year larder and shortages aren’t a concern.

That’s why he’ll praise you.

 

[DragonFox91]

You don't have to know how to sew or garden, where'd you get that idea. @linux.poet Hardly anyone has those skills.

Everyone s/ know basic/simple cooking recipies tho......

 

[Sophrosyne]

They'll teach you more ways to watch your back, which is important. But you probably don't want to be those guys. It's critical to absorb content from guys you want to be more like.

I agree. It is good to sometimes educate yourself on the "evil" in the world so to speak to not be caught off guard but the saying of "if you look too long into the abyss, the abyss starts looking back" comes to mind here. I've personally come across women that fall into this way of thinking, I sort of befriended one, I wasn't looking for a romantic relationship nor was I attracted to her in that fashion and I was single she was married and after about 6 months (I was sort of naive) she tried to seduce me. It took me awhile to try and figure out why it happened but I finally realized that women who are dissatisfied with their husband often want to talk to someone about it and there are actually groups of women that contain cheaters that tempt these women etc. I recall my mom going on and on about my dad at one time in my teens overhearing her complain about their love life and remembering that she was constantly going to used book stores and buying romance novels always reading them. I now just get away from women that complain about their husbands along the lines of love and romance (to me) it is a sign of trouble even though I don't consider myself a magnet for women I think if you pay attention to the ones that are looking for sympathy (they call them symps online) they can "attach" themselves to you and it can be serious trouble as often they don't really want you but want attention from men since they don't feel their husband is giving them enough. From what I've gleaned women, like men crave a challenge in a man. They don't want a man that is a pushover that will just fall all over them in love they want a man that challenges them to win him and keep challenging them throughout life. I sort of call people like this "people pleasers" and it doesn't have to be romance related at all or husband/wife either. These people will pour out all sorts of attention and care upon people that they want to win over and once they feel that that person is now in the near best friend category they move on to the next person and use that person to profit themselves even. It is when that person loses interest in them and no longer is "enamored" with them that they may go back into the "pleaser" mode to win them back again. They can be manipulative as often these people are seemingly caring and loving but after they think they have "got you" they can be very demanding and prey on your feelings and when you realize what is going on and they stop doing what they want you to do for them they can turn evil on you using others who have been duped by them to attack you to get you back in line. I've had relatives like this and a friend now and then but the relative was the one that was rather narcissistic in the way things happened as they turned my own family against me and I had to stop talking to everyone for about 6 months over it all finally everyone realized after I quit talking to them and the relative would not give up under the pressure to get me to help them everyone got fed up. I'm probably in the symp category (a "good" guy) and am careful around married women now. Single women can act out just like the married ones and it is worse because of society in general doesn't see women people sleeping around with abandon as that bad and married people having affairs has become more of a social norm. With the increasing amount of single mothers out there I don't blame it all on the men. I think both men and women have through all this have made sex into a recreational drug not a sacred thing in a marriage Etc.
Oh well.... rant off now time to get myself roasted (putting on my asbestos suit just in case).

 

[Sophrosyne]

I think the vast majority of women, myself included, aren't up to that high standard. I'd consider myself fortunate if I'm able to sew competently and cook/garden decently. Maybe I could gradually build up to this over time. Modern women aren't educated on this.

Looking at such content would likely fuel some depression. And you are actually happy doing this? Wow, my marriage prospects are doomed.

You are fine, having a handle on things means you can grow in skill with it over time if needed. IMO most couples do well if their spouse improves their skills to show that the other is worth a concerted effort it is more about showing care for the other than being wowed by prize winning stuff and blown away by a gourmet meal. I would be thrilled to have someone in my life that could simply enjoy cooking simple stuff now and then and want nice plants around and spends time helping keep the place from turning into a dump so I can spend more time fixing things and
typing nonsense in forums to irritate random people who like to disagree with me

 

[bèlla]

Oh well.... rant off now time to get myself roasted (putting on my asbestos suit just in case).

You’re not going to get roasted.

I’ve come across the people you described and met my share of “Mr. Understandings” but I avoid them. I don’t cry on men’s shoulders or try to make them my bff.

Because he’s still a man. Women get upset when he hits on them later on. Duh! You told him all your business and made him feel needed and appreciated. How do you expect him to respond? Hello!

The reverse holds true as well. He can’t cry on my shoulder about her either. I’ll direct him to a man. Because comparison’s are inevitable. When a person’s hurting “I wish my spouse was more like them” is common.

I’m very discriminating about the people I have around me and a gatekeeper too. You can’t come up in ‘here’ acting, looking, talking, and behaving certain ways. Nor do I open up my relationship to others. I don’t share what he has, does and gives. Because I know my sex.

Women keep a lot to themselves until he makes them mad or things turn sour. Then it all comes out. That’s why I keep company with with those who hold them in high esteem. They don’t undress or run him down for his mistakes. Nor are they checking out their neighbor’s grass.

 

[linux.poet]

Yep, that’s the ugly part about a marriage- you get isolated with your husband a lot and you can’t talk to anyone else of the opposite gender without being a suspect cheater. I watched a video about that a married couple made, so yeah. Made me want to be single forever.

I think some women just value marriage as an institution and so they value homesteading as a practice. And if that works for you, @bélla and @Sketcher, fantastic. But I’m a different sort of person than that. I don’t value marriage as an institution as much as I value male human beings as people. Now obviously if I were to get married, I would follow the rules of the institution and learn things to add to it. But I would do that out of respect for him so I don’t mistreat him and I support the life he wants. I don’t know what life he’s going to want. Maybe he wants to travel the world, and if he does that homesteading practice is out the window.

The thing is, the homesteading thing is part of who you are, bélla, and it’s part of what Sketcher wants. I hope you find that lady, Mr. Sketcher. But it’s not a universal standard that one can just slap across all women. It’s important for each of us to live out our own lives and identities that God has called us to. I’m assertive enough to say that if a gentleman doesn’t mesh with my identity and what God has called me to, I’m not going to change for him. I’m maintaining myself and I’m moving on.

I’ve suffered enough from my abusive parents trying to change me. I don’t need a guy trying to do the same. If he can’t accept me now, he won’t accept me after I’ve learned everything he wants me to learn. He will always find fault, because he cares about the things, he doesn’t care about me.

This is part of why marriages fail, I think. People want the trappings - the multi-year larder, the family photos, the sex. They don’t want a person. People are disruptive. They change. They change your plans. They are moving targets. God controls who people are, not you. And, to go back to the topic question, the bad guy has more trappings. He’s got the money, the intrigue, the body of attraction. So he attracts more women. It takes a lot to look past those trappings and see the rotted spiritual core underneath.

So maybe the nice guys finish last, but if they do, they probably finish best. Because I know that if I have a person, the trappings will come, because I am doing them for him, not to fit him in a box of my own devising, not to try and earn his love, and not to try and change him. All of those things will turn marriage into a cruel box of torture and horror.

Because marriage isn’t a homemaking YouTube video. It’s dealing with kids puking, chandeliers that fall out of the ceiling, and ants that crawl out of light sockets in pursuit of the honey jar. If we respect each other as people, we can tackle these challenges together. If we don’t, these trials will become causes for us to blame each other for them and destroy our relationship. The pain of the trial will be multiplied 1000x by fearing what our spouse will say about it, or how we handled it. I think people underestimate how important this is, and it’s really sad.

You don't have to know how to sew or garden, where'd you get that idea. @linux.poet Hardly anyone has those skills.

Everyone s/ know basic/simple cooking recipies tho......

I do actually have those skills to a degree, simply because I love the beauty and feel of a handmade quilt and the taste of garden fresh vegetables. I didn’t take them on for the sake of a guy.

When a skill isn’t worth it, I don’t do it. Baking lemon scones is a highly rewarding experience for me despite all of the work, 500/10 would do it again. The scones are delicious, but not only that: the kitchen smells great from the lemons, and the spare glaze is the best thing I’ve ever tasted. You get a workout from making the zest with reduces the caloric impact of all the mouth-watering scones you’re going to eat, and the recipe beats store-bought lemon bars by 100%. Highly recommend.

However, baking sourdough bread was an incredibly miserable experience for me - the starter smelled nasty, the resulting bread had crust so tough I cut my thumb trying to cut it. No way am I doing that over again when I can just buy sourdough bread at Costco for $4.99. It’s about efficient use of time - the time it takes me to earn that 5 bucks is a lot less than the whole day I spent trying to bake my own, and much less miserable besides. Not to mention the 5 dollar bread tastes better. If homemaking is not a part of your identity in Christ, it pays to be sane.

That’s the key with these things is to learn what you want to eat, and don’t bother with stuff that isn’t your thing. I learned how to glaze ham because I love ham, Swiss cheese, and bagel sandwiches for breakfast. But that’s me. So I’m not a complete slouch in the culinary department and I’m not about to knock on this area. My parents fed me bad food and being able to have steak and sourdough bread sandwiches with healthy salad and cranberry juice is a form of liberation.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You’re not going to get roasted.

I’ve come across the people you described and met my share of “Mr. Understandings” but I avoid them. I don’t cry on men’s shoulders or try to make them my bff.

Because he’s still a man. Women get upset when he hits on them later on. Duh! You told him all your business and made him feel needed and appreciated. How do you expect him to respond? Hello!

The reverse holds true as well. He can’t cry on my shoulder about her either. I’ll direct him to a man. Because comparison’s are inevitable. When a person’s hurting “I wish my spouse was more like them” is common.

I’m very discriminating about the people I have around me and a gatekeeper too. You can’t come up in ‘here’ acting, looking, talking, and behaving certain ways. Nor do I open up my relationship to others. I don’t share what he has, does and gives. Because I know my sex.

Women keep a lot to themselves until he makes them mad or things turn sour. Then it all comes out. That’s why I keep company with with those who hold them in high esteem. They don’t undress or run him down for his mistakes. Nor are they checking out their neighbor’s grass.

Most guys that I know don't talk about family problems much with other guys but I've come across many women that will open up to me about personal things even asking for advice that if the advice is simple and I don't have to get involved I will try and tell them what I think.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yep, that’s the ugly part about a marriage- you get isolated with your husband a lot and you can’t talk to anyone else of the opposite gender without being a suspect cheater. I watched a video about that a married couple made, so yeah. Made me want to be single forever.

I agree that not being able to talk to the opposite gender is a problem for sure. I think however some women who talk to the opposite gender for reasons that are both good and bad. A husband that doesn't know his wife and trust her should probably not have married her in the first place but there are some men that a man has to protect his wife from it isn't a one size fits all but when women start wanting to talk to other men in private a lot so their husband is oblivious to what is being said it can be a sign of a cheater.

I think some women just value marriage as an institution and so they value homesteading as a practice. And if that works for you, @bélla and @Sketcher, fantastic. But I’m a different sort of person than that. I don’t value marriage as an institution as much as I value male human beings as people. Now obviously if I were to get married, I would follow the rules of the institution and learn things to add to it. But I would do that out of respect for him so I don’t mistreat him and I support the life he wants. I don’t know what life he’s going to want. Maybe he wants to travel the world, and if he does that homesteading practice is out the window.

The institution of marriage is only meaningful to honest and trustworthy people. It is a contract and in today's society many people take it lightly and go into if figuring if things don't work out I can divorce. In other words the institution fails due to lack of character.

The thing is, the homesteading thing is part of who you are, bélla, and it’s part of what Sketcher wants. I hope you find that lady, Mr. Sketcher. But it’s not a universal standard that one can just slap across all women. It’s important for each of us to live out our own lives and identities that God has called us to. I’m assertive enough to say that if a gentleman doesn’t mesh with my identity and what God has called me to, I’m not going to change for him. I’m maintaining myself and I’m moving on.

People don't change unless they either want to or decide to try and see if the change is worth it and if they decide that they don't like the change they revert back. Going into a relationship thinking you can change someone is foolish. You can encourage people and help reinforce things they do that you like but when you try and punish people and force them to change it is usually only temporary or you get someone that resents you for messing up their "comfortable" identity.

I’ve suffered enough from my abusive parents trying to change me. I don’t need a guy trying to do the same. If he can’t accept me now, he won’t accept me after I’ve learned everything he wants me to learn. He will always find fault, because he cares about the things, he doesn’t care about me.

If someone doesn't accept you as you are and also encourage you to be MORE than what you are leaving you to make that choice then he wants his fantasy of some dream that can end up a nightmare in the end. Women tend to like bad boys because they think they can "change" them to their suiting, the same holds true for men who want bad girls or bad men that want good girls too.

This is part of why marriages fail, I think. People want the trappings - the multi-year larder, the family photos, the sex. They don’t want a person. People are disruptive. They change. They change your plans. They are moving targets. God controls who people are, not you. And, to go back to the topic question, the bad guy has more trappings. He’s got the money, the intrigue, the body of attraction. So he attracts more women. It takes a lot to look past those trappings and see the rotted spiritual core underneath.

If someone doesn't accept you as you are and encourage you to be what you truly want to be then the married someone else and have to brainwash you to fit and will hate you when you don't comply.

So maybe the nice guys finish last, but if they do, they probably finish best. Because I know that if I have a person, the trappings will come, because I am doing them for him, not to fit him in a box of my own devising, not to try and earn his love, and not to try and change him. All of those things will turn marriage into a cruel box of torture and horror.

It depends on what they get, many nice guys end up with leftover damaged goods or women that have tried out and been abused by all the bad boys and they end up having to try and compete with their failed relationships with perhaps men that made them pass out with passion in the bedroom. They can also settle for women that have too low of standards and even chameleons that want his richness and lifestyle.

I do actually have those skills to a degree, simply because I love the beauty and feel of a handmade quilt and the taste of garden fresh vegetables. I didn’t take them on for the sake of a guy.
When a skill isn’t worth it, I don’t do it. Baking lemon scones is a highly rewarding experience for me despite all of the work, 500/10 would do it again. The scones are delicious, but not only that: the kitchen smells great from the lemons, and the spare glaze is the best thing I’ve ever tasted. You get a workout from making the zest with reduces the caloric impact of all the mouth-watering scones you’re going to eat, and the recipe beats store-bought lemon bars by 100%. Highly recommend.

However, baking sourdough bread was an incredibly miserable experience for me - the starter smelled nasty, the resulting bread had crust so tough I cut my thumb trying to cut it. No way am I doing that over again when I can just buy sourdough bread at Costco for $4.99. It’s about efficient use of time - the time it takes me to earn that 5 bucks is a lot less than the whole day I spent trying to bake my own, and much less miserable besides. Not to mention the 5 dollar bread tastes better. If homemaking is not a part of your identity in Christ, it pays to be sane.

That’s the key with these things is to learn what you want to eat, and don’t bother with stuff that isn’t your thing. I learned how to glaze ham because I love ham, Swiss cheese, and bagel sandwiches for breakfast. But that’s me. So I’m not a complete slouch in the culinary department and I’m not about to knock on this area. My parents fed me bad food and being able to have steak and sourdough bread sandwiches with healthy salad and cranberry juice is a form of liberation.

Doing things you enjoy in any relationship is like icing on a cake, while having to do things you don't like is like dumping dirt in the trash as you do get things done but even at the end you can eat dust.

 

[ReesePiece23]

It's not a question of being nice/bad - or whatever overused adjective you choose to employ to describe a man.

It's about being genuine and behaving in a way that's consistent with your personality. Foibles and all.

 

[Sketcher]

Yep, that’s the ugly part about a marriage- you get isolated with your husband a lot and you can’t talk to anyone else of the opposite gender without being a suspect cheater. I watched a video about that a married couple made, so yeah. Made me want to be single forever.

I think some women just value marriage as an institution and so they value homesteading as a practice. And if that works for you, @bélla and @Sketcher, fantastic. But I’m a different sort of person than that. I don’t value marriage as an institution as much as I value male human beings as people. Now obviously if I were to get married, I would follow the rules of the institution and learn things to add to it. But I would do that out of respect for him so I don’t mistreat him and I support the life he wants. I don’t know what life he’s going to want. Maybe he wants to travel the world, and if he does that homesteading practice is out the window.

The thing is, the homesteading thing is part of who you are, bélla, and it’s part of what Sketcher wants. I hope you find that lady, Mr. Sketcher. But it’s not a universal standard that one can just slap across all women. It’s important for each of us to live out our own lives and identities that God has called us to. I’m assertive enough to say that if a gentleman doesn’t mesh with my identity and what God has called me to, I’m not going to change for him. I’m maintaining myself and I’m moving on.

I’ve suffered enough from my abusive parents trying to change me. I don’t need a guy trying to do the same. If he can’t accept me now, he won’t accept me after I’ve learned everything he wants me to learn. He will always find fault, because he cares about the things, he doesn’t care about me.

This is part of why marriages fail, I think. People want the trappings - the multi-year larder, the family photos, the sex. They don’t want a person. People are disruptive. They change. They change your plans. They are moving targets. God controls who people are, not you. And, to go back to the topic question, the bad guy has more trappings. He’s got the money, the intrigue, the body of attraction. So he attracts more women. It takes a lot to look past those trappings and see the rotted spiritual core underneath.

So maybe the nice guys finish last, but if they do, they probably finish best. Because I know that if I have a person, the trappings will come, because I am doing them for him, not to fit him in a box of my own devising, not to try and earn his love, and not to try and change him. All of those things will turn marriage into a cruel box of torture and horror.

Because marriage isn’t a homemaking YouTube video. It’s dealing with kids puking, chandeliers that fall out of the ceiling, and ants that crawl out of light sockets in pursuit of the honey jar. If we respect each other as people, we can tackle these challenges together. If we don’t, these trials will become causes for us to blame each other for them and destroy our relationship. The pain of the trial will be multiplied 1000x by fearing what our spouse will say about it, or how we handled it. I think people underestimate how important this is, and it’s really sad.


I do actually have those skills to a degree, simply because I love the beauty and feel of a handmade quilt and the taste of garden fresh vegetables. I didn’t take them on for the sake of a guy.

When a skill isn’t worth it, I don’t do it. Baking lemon scones is a highly rewarding experience for me despite all of the work, 500/10 would do it again. The scones are delicious, but not only that: the kitchen smells great from the lemons, and the spare glaze is the best thing I’ve ever tasted. You get a workout from making the zest with reduces the caloric impact of all the mouth-watering scones you’re going to eat, and the recipe beats store-bought lemon bars by 100%. Highly recommend.

However, baking sourdough bread was an incredibly miserable experience for me - the starter smelled nasty, the resulting bread had crust so tough I cut my thumb trying to cut it. No way am I doing that over again when I can just buy sourdough bread at Costco for $4.99. It’s about efficient use of time - the time it takes me to earn that 5 bucks is a lot less than the whole day I spent trying to bake my own, and much less miserable besides. Not to mention the 5 dollar bread tastes better. If homemaking is not a part of your identity in Christ, it pays to be sane.

That’s the key with these things is to learn what you want to eat, and don’t bother with stuff that isn’t your thing. I learned how to glaze ham because I love ham, Swiss cheese, and bagel sandwiches for breakfast. But that’s me. So I’m not a complete slouch in the culinary department and I’m not about to knock on this area. My parents fed me bad food and being able to have steak and sourdough bread sandwiches with healthy salad and cranberry juice is a form of liberation.

Hey, you do what you want to do. I'm glad that you cook some things. You hadn't clarified this before, so I was thinking "gosh, does she expect to live on frozen, canned, and take-out foods until some man who likes to cook marries her?" That's an unhealthy and irresponsible way to live. And, speaking from experience, there are certain other things that I wish I had seriously began pursuing when I was your age. "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time to plant a tree is now."

 

[DragonFox91]

Some people think nice guys finishing last is why there's so much bad in the world.

 

[bèlla]

Most guys that I know don't talk about family problems much with other guys but I've come across many women that will open up to me about personal things even asking for advice that if the advice is simple and I don't have to get involved I will try and tell them what I think.

One of the benefits of my walk with the Lord is learning to keep my own counsel. I used to bounce things off friends long ago. It was like a bad advice jeopardy category.

Now I talk to Him and sit quietly. I don’t have to bend someone’s ear. Because He’ll bring it up and provide counsel and reassurance. And I’ve learned to wait on Him.

Personal and professional issues have their respective circles. But I want to hear from God first or bring the matter in prayer beforehand. That allows me to line up what I receive elsewhere.