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Jeff Saunders

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We are always both in the Kingdom of God. . .and which are in no way in conflict with taking Scripture at its word that unbelief results in eternal death.

Which is as he is in his word written, as distinct from the notions of man.
Look at the word translated eternal it’s aionios which can also be translated of the age or eon ( it’s the word we get in English eon) this is the only translation that shows that God will get 100% of what he paid for.His word clearly states “It’s Gods will that none parish “ How much clearer can it be started and if you think that it is just a desire then again a house divided against itself will fall. That is exactly what happens when we see Gods will at odds with his desire.
 
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Clare73

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So let me get this straight you serve a God who has a desire but it is at odds with his will
I serve the God of Deuteronomy 29:29 and of the Pharaoh account, the only God which the Bible presents, and the same God of NT apostolic teaching with which it is completely and totally harmonious.

The God you serve is in disagreement with himself regarding the above.
 
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Look at the word translated eternal it’s aionios which can also be translated of the age or eon ( it’s the word we get in English eon) this is the only translation that shows that God will get 100% of what he paid for.His word clearly states “It’s Gods will that none parish “ How much clearer can it be started and if you think that it is just a desire then again a house divided against itself will fall. That is exactly what happens when we see Gods will at odds with his desire.
Where is aionios used in what we are discussing?

Aionios is the same word used of God, of his glory, of the Holy Spirit, etc. (Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 5:10; Hebrews 9:4), all of which are never ending.

The meaning of aionios is very clear as far as Scripture is concerned.

It is the word crafters who are the ones trying to alter it to something else more in line with their theology.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Where is aionios used in what we are discussing?

Aionios is the same word used of God, of his glory, of the Holy Spirit, etc. (Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 5:10; Hebrews 9:4), all of which are never ending.

The meaning of aionios is very clear as far as Scripture is concerned.

It is the word crafters who try to alter it to something else more in line with their theology.[/QUOTE You should study the Greek word Apokatastasis this is what that most of the early church believe, those who were either directly taught by the very writers of the New Testament or lived shortly after them. The ideas you cling to are from Augustine and all the problems he brought with his use of the Latin Bible and not the Greek/Hebrew Bible this is something that the church of today has kept hidden at all costs.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Once again I took a screen shot from writing of David Bentley Hart , he has letters after his name and is a Greek scholar, if you will not even consider what he is saying but simply write it off well you have ended the conversation I do hope you will at least read it who knows you might even learn something.
hell is just as real as heaven and there will be people in both places for all eternity- some with eternal torment and others with eternal bliss. That is Bible 101 and not based upon emotions but upon facts in the bible.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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hell is just as real as heaven and there will be people in both places for all eternity- some with eternal torment and others with eternal bliss. That is Bible 101 and not based upon emotions but upon facts in the bible.
Will you discuss the page I sent you ? He has letters after his name so why do you refuse to discuss his translation of aionios?
 
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Mark Quayle

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To me it seems like the people who don’t like the idea that “ that it’s Gods will none should parish but all come to repentance “ 2 Pet3:9 . Need to have two wills in order for this to fit into the idea that God loses most of his creation to satan

It's simpler than that. We know we can't have everything we want, so we do what we can (and that's with us silly ignorant humans). With God, it's even simpler. His nature includes 'nice', but 'nice can't always happen if he creates what he most desires. He created His Dwelling Place, the Bride of Christ. THAT necessarily includes these several thousand (if not billion) years of time and trouble. There is no other way.

There is also the chain of cause-and-effect to bear in mind, he gives generic information to us, we might refer to as 'God's revealed will', or 'God's command. The command is a general principle or policy which we are to apply to specific events, thoughts, attitudes etc. But God also has a plan, we might refer to as 'God's hidden will' which includes absolutely every specific thing that happens, because he is first cause of all other things (i.e. other than himself —he did not cause himself, as that is logically self-contradictory. He is uncaused.)

It might be an enjoyable study for you to study the philosophical principle (concerning God's attributes) called "The Simplicity of God", and, for that matter, the other main ones. WE are the ones complicating this. God wills —it is done, but he hurt himself doing it for his own glory and for our sakes.
 
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Will you discuss the page I sent you ? He has letters after his name so why do you refuse to discuss his translation of aionios?
context determines the meaning of every word in scripture and its quite clear Jesus and the Apostles talk about it with punishment as never ending. I have every GreeK lexicon in both hard and electronic versions. I studied NT Greek for 3 years in the mid 80's. I have all the major Greek Word studies: Kittles 10 volumes, the NTDNT 4 volumes, Zodhiates, Vines, Colin Browns, Moultin & Milligans.
 
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Look at the word translated eternal it’s aionios which can also be translated of the age or eon ( it’s the word we get in English eon) this is the only translation that shows that God will get 100% of what he paid for.His word clearly states “It’s Gods will that none parish “
CONTEXT. . .

In 2 Peter 3, he is addressing the day of the Lord (3:10); i.e., the second coming of Christ, where Peter is speaking to Christians about Christians' concerns, raised by the false teachers; i.e., scoffers, denying the return of Christ because it had not yet happened (3:1-9).
Peter, always the shepherd, instructs them that Jesus has not yet returned because he is patiently waiting for all the elect to come in, not wanting any of the elect to perish by dropping the curtain of time before they have entered, but wanting all of them to come to repentance first (3:9).
Peter is speaking to Christians about Christians' concern, and his words relate to Christians, not to the world.
How much clearer can it be started
Statements are not the problem, knowing and understanding their context is always the problem.
You don't really understand Scripture until you understand its context, in the light of the teaching of all Scripture.
and if you think that it is just a desire then again a house divided against itself will fall. That is exactly what happens when we see Gods will at odds with his desire.
The good news is we don't ever see that.

"At odds" is your nomenclature. God's revealed will to Pharaoh (Let my people go.) was in perfect agreement with his secret purpose for Pharaoh (to harden his heart so that he would not let them go), so that God could display his power in him and thereby God's name would be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:17).

How much clearer could it be stated?
 
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Will you discuss the page I sent you ? He has letters after his name so why do you refuse to discuss his translation of aionios?
why read a man when I have lexical evidence for my beliefs and scripture to back it up ?


NT:166

NT:166 ‎ai)w/nio$ ‎aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)

KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:166

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: ‎Qeo/$‎, Rom 16:26 (‎o( ‎‎mo/no$ ‎‎ai)w/nio$‎, 2 Macc 1:25); ‎pneu=ma‎, Heb 9:14.

2. without beginning: ‎xro/noi$ ‎‎ai)wni/oi$‎, Rom 16:25; ‎pro/ ‎‎xro/nwn ‎‎ai)wni/wn‎, 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; ‎eu)agge/lion‎, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Rev 14:6.

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Cor 4:18 (opposed to ‎pro/skairo$‎); ‎ai)w/nion ‎‎au)to/n‎, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; ‎ba/ro$ ‎‎do/ch$‎, 2 Cor 4:17; ‎basilei/a‎, 2 Peter 1:11; ‎do/ca‎, 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ‎zwh/ ‎(see ‎zwh/‎, 2 b.); ‎klhronomi/a‎, Heb 9:15; ‎lu/trwsi$‎, Heb 9:12; ‎para/klhsi$‎, 2 Thess 2:16; ‎skhnai/‎, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 (


(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



NT:166

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.


(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)




NT:166

Johannine theology knows Jesus to be life itself (John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 5:20) so that ‎zwh/ ‎and ‎zwh\ ai)w/nio$ ‎can be used synonymously as designations for the salvation mediated by Jesus (John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 1:2; 5:11ff.). Every believer has eternal life and is thus within the sphere of salvation (John 3:15f., 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 1 John 5:13, always with ‎e&xein‎; cf. John 4:36; 1 John 2:25; 3:15). At the same time, the believer is dependent upon the one who bestows life (John 4:14; 6:54; 10:28; 17:2), who through his blood (6:54), his "food" (v. 27), and his word (v. 68; 12:50) gives eternal life to his followers so that they need never again fear destruction (10:28). For the believer this means the renunciation of one's earthly life (‎yuxh/‎) in favor of ‎zwh\ ai)w/nio$‎: only in this way will one keep one's life (12:25). On the other hand, eternal life exists already as the "knowledge" of the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent (17:3).


(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. All rights reserved.)
 
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Jeff Saunders

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It's simpler than that. We know we can't have everything we want, so we do what we can (and that's with us silly ignorant humans). With God, it's even simpler. His nature includes 'nice', but 'nice can't always happen if he creates what he most desires. He created His Dwelling Place, the Bride of Christ. THAT necessarily includes these several thousand (if not billion) years of time and trouble. There is no other way.

There is also the chain of cause-and-effect to bear in mind, he gives generic information to us, we might refer to as 'God's revealed will', or 'God's command. The command is a general principle or policy which we are to apply to specific events, thoughts, attitudes etc. But God also has a plan, we might refer to as 'God's hidden will' which includes absolutely every specific thing that happens, because he is first cause of all other things (i.e. other than himself —he did not cause himself, as that is logically self-contradictory. He is uncaused.)

It might be an enjoyable study for you to study the philosophical principle (concerning God's attributes) called "The Simplicity of God", and, for that matter, the other main ones. WE are the ones complicating this. God wills —it is done, but he hurt himself doing it for his own glory and for our sakes.
I keep getting told that I can’t show that Gods will is that he should not lose any and no matter how many times I quote the plain words of God about the Bible saying “ It’s Gods will that none perish “ I am told that is not his will? But I keep getting scripture from those who think God has two wills that never say the opposite you have to say “this scripture proves God has to wills and then go on th described how it’s his hidden will but it’s in there we know it. Don’t you see how confused you sound? If God does not want any to go to hell, which you believe to be eternal, why would he hide it so well and give us verses that say Jesus is the savior of the world? Unless your a Calvinist they say God does want all people to go to hell but fortunately for us, the elect, he reaches down and saves a few.Ask yourself what are you saying about God if that is love I think you need to have a different definition of Love my Bible says love is patient/kind/not envious/does not brag/not puffed up/not rude/ not self serving/ not easily angered/not glad about injustice/ keeps no record of wrong (kind of hard to do if you torture them for eternity) that is what love is , some translations use other words but the point is still the same. And when you see the love of God you will see he will not nor can torture people forever but he can and does discipline people unto correction. That is the God we serve.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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CONTEXT. . .

In 2 Peter 3, he is addressing the day of the Lord (3:10); i.e., the second coming of Christ, where Peter is speaking to Christians about Christians' concerns, raised by the false teachers; i.e., scoffers, denying the return of Christ because it had not yet happened (3:1-9).
Peter, always the shepherd, instructs them that Jesus has not yet returned because he is patiently waiting for all the elect to come in, not wanting any of the elect to perish by dropping the curtain of time before they have entered, but wanting all of them to come to repentance first (3:9).
Peter is speaking to Christians about Christians' concern, and his words relate to Christians, not to the world.

Statements are not the problem, knowing and understanding their context is always the problem.
You don't really understand Scripture until you understand its context, in the light of the teaching of all Scripture.

The good news is we don't ever see that.

"At odds" is your nomenclature. God's revealed will to Pharaoh (Let my people go.) was in perfect agreement with his secret purpose for Pharaoh (to harden his heart so that he would not let them go), so that God could display his power in him and thereby God's name would be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:17).

How much clearer could it be stated?
What version of the Bible are you using? I have a few and none have the word elect in 2Pet3 or is this one of those hidden words that you need special glasses to see?
 
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Clare73

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You should study the Greek word Apokatastasis this is what that most of the early church believe, those who were either directly taught by the very writers of the New Testament or lived shortly after them. The ideas you cling to are from Augustine and all the problems he brought with his use of the Latin Bible and not the Greek/Hebrew Bible this is something that the church of today has kept hidden at all costs.
The "ideas" I cling to are directly from the Greek text, and in regard to "eternal," the Greek text uses aionios.

Don't know nuthin' 'bout no Augustine and his Latin Bible.
 
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Clare73

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What version of the Bible are you using? I have a few and none have the word elect in 2Pet3 or is this one of those hidden words that you need special glasses to see?
Indeed, they do not. . .however, if you will consider what I posted, you will find the answer you seek.

[Hint: all the born again (i.e., Christians) are the elect, so to speak to Christians about Christians is to speak to and about the elect.]
 
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Jeff Saunders

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The "ideas" I cling to are directly from the Greek text, and in regard to "eternal," the Greek text uses aionios.

Don't know nuthin' 'bout no Augustine and his Latin Bible.
You should look into that because what you are believing is straight from the Augustine . Most of the early church believers lived by Apokatastasis ( God would redeem his whole creation) Not until the Catholic Church become the dominant religion did most people believe what you are selling and even after the reformation those who left the Catholic Church to start what has become the Protestant religion they left the Catholic Church but unfortunately much of the Catholic Church left with them .
 
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Clare73

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You should look into that because what you are believing is straight from the Augustine . Most of the early church believers lived by Apokatastasis ( God would redeem his whole creation) Not until the Catholic Church become the dominant religion did most people believe what you are selling and even after the reformation those who left the Catholic Church to start what has become the Protestant religion they left the Catholic Church but unfortunately much of the Catholic Church left with them .
Then good for Augustine. . .he is in agreement with me.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Indeed, they do not. . .however, if you will consider what I posted, you will find the answer you seek.

[Hint: all the born again (i.e., Christians) are the elect, so to speak to Christians about Christians is to speak to and about the elect.]
I know what you are saying I taught it but from the Arminian camp for many years. So your arguments I totally understand. It was not until I was challenged ,just like I am challenging you, to look at Christian Universal Redemption and prove it wrong was my heart changed. I thought that’s easy to disprove because I had all the answers memorized just like you. Then I did a study I read, listened to many hours of teaching on this and learned that this was once the dominant view for the first 300 years of the church. As hard as I tried to discredit the idea I had to admit that it is a possibility and with much prayer and study I have come to believe that it the most accurate with looking at the Bible as a whole.Now I don’t need two wills of God or secret wills or adding words into the plain text to make it say what I wanted it to say. Are there still some things that I don’t understand? Yes maybe I won’t get some things till I am with the Lord but I have a peace and love I never knew before and there is no way I am going back. I guess you could say I believe it because God made me because nothing happens that God does not decree
 
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I know what you are saying I taught it but from the Arminian camp for many years. So your arguments I totally understand. It was not until I was challenged ,just like I am challenging you, to look at Christian Universal Redemption and prove it wrong was my heart changed.
All I need is Jesus' words in Matthew 25:46, and the meaning of eternal (aionios), which use in Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 5:10; Hebrews 9:4 makes unequivocally clear that it means "never ending."

Not only that, I find it in total agreement with everything in Scripture, understood in context and in the light of all Scripture.
I thought that’s easy to disprove because I had all the answers memorized just like you. Then I did a study I read, listened to many hours of teaching on this and learned that this was once the dominant view for the first 300 years of the church. As hard as I tried to discredit the idea I had to admit that it is a possibility and with much prayer and study I have come to believe that it the most accurate with looking at the Bible as a whole.Now I don’t need two wills of God or secret wills or adding words into the plain text to make it say what I wanted it to say. Are there still some things that I don’t understand? Yes maybe I won’t get some things till I am with the Lord but I have a peace and love I never knew before and there is no way I am going back. I guess you could say I believe it because God made me because nothing happens that God does not decree
I understand. . .that in itself does not affect one's salvation anyway.
 
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