Did all the laws end at the cross- Part 2

LoveGodsWord

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And now this part:

I think Romans does tells us that even people who don't have the law still have some knowledge of the requirements of the law.

"...even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts..."
Romans 2 NIV

So,
1. They do not have the law.
2. The requirements of the law are written on their hearts

That is not applicable to all people though. As posted earlier this is demonstrated in the context of Romans 2:14 in Romans 2:12 that says as many has have sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. So Romans 2:14 does not delete the context of Romans 2:12-13. Romans 2:14 is contrasting the law written on the heart using a gentile as an example to a Jew who teaches the law but breaks it *see Romans 2:14-19. Paul in Romans 2 to Romans 3:9-20 is showing both Jews and Gentiles are all sinners and have broken Gods' law therefore in need of God's grace of forgiveness that we receive through faith.
 
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Leaf473

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Just the fact that the scriptures tell is that we can sin in ignorance in James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-27 should put any doubts and questions you have to rest here. Can we become fully grown men and women in Christ understanding the meat of the Word of God before we are babes in Christ desiring the sincere milk of the Word of God growing in Gods' Grace? Does this make sense to you? If someone does not know God's Word then how can they know what God wants them to do? - They cannot which is why God says in times of ignorance when we do not know any better he winks at as growing Christians but when He gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what His Word says.

Actually Romans says no such thing. Romans 2:12 says as many has have sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Paul in Romans 2:14-19 then goes on to contrast the law written on the heart with the law not written on the heart between the Jew and the Gentile. So once again here we are talking about different things. We are not talking about believers verses unbelievers and ignorance of sin we are talking about Gods Grace for those in Christ who are believers and known and unknown sin.

Why would you expect me to bother answering your questions any more when the answers have already been provided to you in the posts you are ignoring and you refuse to answer any questions I ask of you that were only asked to help the conversation based around the scriptures to help you to answer your own questions for yourself that are based on the scriptures? - Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take Care.
And now this part:

Why would you expect me to bother answering your questions any more when the answers have already been provided to you in the posts you are ignoring and you refuse to answer any questions I ask of you that were only asked to help the conversation based around the scriptures to help you to answer your own questions for yourself that are based on the scriptures?
I'm not aware that I have ignored any of your posts. I go through each post on this thread one by one in the order they appear. I believe I have responded to all of your posts. Did I miss one?

In your previous post to me, you asked me this question:
"Does God hold him accountable for the sins he does not yet know about?"

I answered
The direct answer to your question is No, God doesn't hold him accountable.
It is not true to say that I don't answer any of your questions.
_____________

The topic of the thread is, "Did all laws end at the cross?"

I believe all the laws from Genesis through Deuteronomy ended at the cross. But if someone wants to bring up the idea of the principle of the law and the letter of the law and say that the principles of the laws remain, I can agree with that.

From our previous conversations, I thought that it was your position that some of the letters of the laws remained in effect after the cross, and that we must keep those letters in order to fulfill the principles of those laws.

If that's not your position, maybe we agree after all!

And of course, if you don't want to talk about it anymore, that's fine.
 
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Leaf473

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Just the fact that the scriptures tell is that we can sin in ignorance in James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-27 should put any doubts and questions you have to rest here. Can we become fully grown men and women in Christ understanding the meat of the Word of God before we are babes in Christ desiring the sincere milk of the Word of God growing in Gods' Grace? Does this make sense to you? If someone does not know God's Word then how can they know what God wants them to do? - They cannot which is why God says in times of ignorance when we do not know any better he winks at as growing Christians but when He gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what His Word says.

Actually Romans says no such thing. Romans 2:12 says as many has have sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Paul in Romans 2:14-19 then goes on to contrast the law written on the heart with the law not written on the heart between the Jew and the Gentile. So once again here we are talking about different things. We are not talking about believers verses unbelievers and ignorance of sin we are talking about Gods Grace for those in Christ who are believers and known and unknown sin.

Why would you expect me to bother answering your questions any more when the answers have already been provided to you in the posts you are ignoring and you refuse to answer any questions I ask of you that were only asked to help the conversation based around the scriptures to help you to answer your own questions for yourself that are based on the scriptures? - Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take Care.
And now this part:
- Perhaps you can pray about it.

Take Care.
Amen, we all want to pray to gain knowledge and wisdom from the scriptures on a regular basis, don't we?

May the peace of the Lord be always with you.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The topic of the thread is, "Did all laws end at the cross?" I believe all the laws from Genesis through Deuteronomy ended at the cross. But if someone wants to bring up the idea of the principle of the law and the letter of the law and say that the principles of the laws remain, I can agree with that.
There is no scripture in all of Gods' Word that teaches Gods' 10 commandments ended at the Cross. In fact pretty much all the old and new testament scirputures teach the opposite of this claim. Happy to discuss the detail with you if you are interested and to show that Jesus and all the Apostles not only upheld and taught God's 10 commandments in the new covenant but that they have the same role that they always had and that is to give us a knowledge of what sin is and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith to receive Gods' gift of Grace and everlasting life to those who have faith.

God bless.
 
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Leaf473

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That is not biblical for those who do not know God's law and what is right and what is wrong. According to the scriptures is Gods' law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin. Even many laws in western society that we have today is based on God's Word. So it is through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is and adultery is one of them *Exodus 20:14. So if your talking about adultery, talking God's name in vain, lying or stealing it really makes no difference to the example provided earlier. If a new Christian does not know something is sin and adultery only being used as an obvious example then it is a sin of ignorance that God does not hold us accountable for until he gives us a knowledge that what we are doing is sin. At this point we are held accountable for sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of His Word.

Take Care.
If you are construing those scriptures to mean that a person who does not have the written law has no knowledge of good and evil, then we disagree about the meaning of those scriptures.
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...

Then your answer here has just proven my point. We need to have a knowledge of Gods' Word in order to follow Gods' Word more fully from being babes in Christ when we first believe. This is called Christian growth. We all start off as babes in Christ desiring the sincere milk of the Word learning what God's Word says. During this time God holds us accountable to what we know, not what we do not know and in times of our ignorance God winks at *James 4:17; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 but as we grow in the knowledge of His Grace he expects us to believe and follow what His Word says.

God bless.
We agree that Christians grow. If you're saying that a person has to have access to a written copy of the scriptures in order to grow, then we disagree.

For one thing, it would mean illiterate people and people who don't have the scriptures in their own language can't grow in Christ.

imo, that's kind of drifting away from the topic of the thread, unless we can think of a way to bring it around to the thread topic.
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...

Kind of. There is the spoken Word of God that was passed down from Adam and Eve to their children so I agree with you as well. Today though we can also have God's Word passed down to us through our parents and friends, but for many they find it through the written Word of God in the scriptures. So God covers all bases here for all people. How great is that?
Is there a record in the scriptures of the spoken word of God being given to Adam and Eve? I can't think of one, maybe there is.

As I understand the story of Adam and Eve obtaining the knowledge of good and evil, it happens at the time that they eat the fruit. As the story is presented, God is not around telling them his word. The implication I see in the story is that they immediately realized they were naked and made some fig leaf clothes for themselves.

The story sounds to me like they received an innate or instinctual knowledge of Good and evil.
 
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Leaf473

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Your response here...

Kind of. There is the spoken Word of God that was passed down from Adam and Eve to their children so I agree with you as well. Today though we can also have God's Word passed down to us through our parents and friends, but for many they find it through the written Word of God in the scriptures. So God covers all bases here for all people. How great is that?
And Yes, it is great!

Psalm 19 comes to mind
The heavens are telling the glory of God. The sky shows his handiwork.
 
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Leaf473

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That is not applicable to all people though. As posted earlier this is demonstrated in the context of Romans 2:14 in Romans 2:12 that says as many has have sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. So Romans 2:14 does not delete the context of Romans 2:12-13. Romans 2:14 is contrasting the law written on the heart using a gentile as an example to a Jew who teaches the law but breaks it *see Romans 2:14-19. Paul in Romans 2 to Romans 3:9-20 is showing both Jews and Gentiles are all sinners and have broken Gods' law therefore in need of God's grace of forgiveness that we receive through faith.
I think it's talking about
"...Gentiles who don’t have the law."
And it says
"...they show the work of the law written in their hearts."
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2 - World English Bible

So it's true that it doesn't apply to everybody, and no context is deleted.

It is also true that sometimes gentiles who don't have the law "do by nature the things of the law."
 
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Leaf473

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There is no scripture in all of Gods' Word that teaches Gods' 10 commandments ended at the Cross. In fact pretty much all the old and new testament scirputures teach the opposite of this claim. Happy to discuss the detail with you if you are interested and to show that Jesus and all the Apostles not only upheld and taught God's 10 commandments in the new covenant but that they have the same role that they always had and that is to give us a knowledge of what sin is and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith to receive Gods' gift of Grace and everlasting life to those who have faith.

God bless.
Great, then we can get solidly back on the thread topic. And yes, I'm interested in discussing details!

If you believe that the ten commandments did not end at the cross, then do you believe that we are to keep those commandments to the letter, or are we to keep the principles, or both?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I know we have seen these before and gone round and round. I have been more silent lately but still reading from time to time. I am amazed that some do not see the Sabbath as a foreshadow of Christ. But, so be it. I can respect views different from my own.

This is where land. And the Lord will be my judge on the matter. And as with all my many failings, I will rely on the mercy of God and the blood of Christ.

Colossians 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Romans 14:
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I know we have seen these before and gone round and round. I have been more silent lately but still reading from time to time. I am amazed that some do not see the Sabbath as a foreshadow of Christ. But, so be it. I can respect views different from my own.

Hi AS nice to see you again. Some may not see that the Sabbath was a shadow law of Jesus because it is not biblical and neither does not make any sense. According to the scriptures Jesus is the Lord and creator of the creation Sabbath that he made for all mankind *see Mark 2:27-28; John 1:1-4; 14. The only definition of the Sabbath in scripture is found in Exodus 20:10 where it says; "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God". So we know that Jesus did not create himself and not the Lord of Himself. We also know that in Genesis 2:1-3 that when God rested on the "seventh day" of the creation week that he did not "bless himself" or make himself holy.

This what Exodus 20:11 is referring to. God rested on the "seventh day" of the week and set aside the "seventh day" as a holy day of res for all mankind. So it makes absolutely no sense to call Jesus a Sabbath and there is absolutely no scripture to support such a view. It is an unbiblical false teaching made to lead people away from God and His Word to justify breaking the Sabbath of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Yes agreed, Jesus is indeed the Lord of the Sabbath. That is he has authority over the Sabbath because he is the creator of the Sabbath and all things in Heaven and earth *John 1:1-4; 14.

He does indeed bid us come to rest in Him from sin and bids us to follow him because he is our Saviour from sin. Think it through though AS. How can God's Sabbath be a shadow law of anything when it points backwards as a "memorial" (Remember the Sabbath day - Exodus 20:8) to the finished work of creation *Exodus 20:11 and not forward to things to come? There was no sin and no plan of salvation given to mankind because there was no sin and no "shadow laws" that point forward to the coming of a Savior from sin because there was no sin *Genesis 2:1-3? There was only sinless Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 who were without sin and in no need of shadow laws of things to come pointing forward to the promised Savior from sin because the Sabbath was made when mankind was sinless.

The Mosaic "shadow laws" were only given after the fall (sin) of mankind not before sin when the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore it is impossible for Gods' Sabbath to be a shadow law of anything because it points backwards and not forwards to the promised Saviour from sin. Your mixing up God's Mosaic "shadow laws" given after the fall of mankind with God's eternal laws that in the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

Lets chat about the rest of your post in the next few posts...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Colossians 2:16

As to Colossians 2:16? Yes many take this scripture out of context to the rest of the bible to try and teach that Gods' 4th commandment is a "shadow law" pointing to Christ. However, this teaching is not biblical. I have spent a lot of time prayerfully asking God and studying this topic for myself and I am happy to prove Colossians 2:16 is not a reference to Gods' 4th commandment by Gods' grace through His Word if you are interested.

The scriptures say
  • Colossians 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day (Feast day), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (plural): [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. [KJV]
If you prayerfully look at this topic in detail and not surface read the scripture and separate it from context like many do, you will find Colossians 2:16 is not a reference to Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments but is a reference to the ceremonial "sabbaths" plural in the annual Feast days connected to the meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices that are shadow of things to come pointing to Jesus.

Paul here is actually quoting old testament scriptures in regards to the annual Feast days and ceremonial laws and sabbaths that were connected to these Feast days. I will show you examples of these shortly but let me ask, did you know that there was many different kinds of sabbaths (plural) in the Old Testament?

For example the annual Feast days included annual ceremonial sabbaths (plural) that unlike Gods' 4th commandment that is every "seventh day" *Exodus 20:10 on a continuous weekly cycle, the annual sabbaths in the Feast days could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and were connected directly to the meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices and sin offerings pointing to Jesus. All these shadow laws of remission of sins including the meat and drink offerings the new moons and the annual sabbaths (plural) in he annual Feast days for example included;
It is all these sabbaths (plural) that were connected to the old covenant earthly Sanctuary that were all shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Savoir of the world.

It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 to be talking about Gods' 4th commandment for God's 4th commandment has never pointed forward to things to come but points backwards to the finished work of creation *see Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. Gods' 4th commandment was also made before sin and before law when mankind was sinless and there was no need for a gospel pointing to Jesus because there was no sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind (see Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) only Adam and Eve created. Gods' 4th commandment points backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) not forward to things to come so cannot be a "shadow law" of anything.

Paul in Colossians 2:16 is actually quoting old testament scriptures..
  • Colossians 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) holy day (Feast day), or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath days (plural): [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. [KJV]
from..
  • Ezekiel 45:17-21, It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, (1) meat offering and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) sabbaths, at all the appointed (5) feasts of the house of israel: He shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord God; in the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: and the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. and so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. in the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
  • 1 Chronicles 23:31 and whenever (1) burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.
  • 2 Chronicles 2:4 [4] Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making (1) burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.
  • Numbers 28:8-10 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.
  • Isaiah 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, THE CALLING OF ASSEMBLIES, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
  • Hosea 2:11 [11], I will stop her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.
KEY POINTS TAKEN FROM THE SCRIPTURE
So what you can see here is that Paul is directly quoting old testament scriptures from Colossians 2:16 that are referring to the annual ceremonial sabbaths connected to the Old testament Sanctuary and meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices and old covenant laws for remission of sins linked to the annual Feast days not Gods' 4th commandment which was Paul's custom in keeping according to the scriptures (Acts of the Apostles 17:2).

Application to other new covenant scriptures
  • Hebrews 9:1; 9-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
  • HEBREWS 10:1-9
    [1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
    [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
    [3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
    [4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
    [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
    [6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
    [7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
    [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
    [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
All the above new covenant scriptures link in with Colossians 2:16, the meat and drink offerings, and the sabbaths in the annual Feast days and the earthly Sanctuary and its laws for remission of sins. Colossians 2:16 is not telling us that Gods' 4th commandment is abolished.

..................

SUNDAY KEEPING COMMENTARIES ON COLOSSIANS 2:16

I am not one for commentaries but for what it is worth these Sunday keeping scholars are all in agreement here in regards to Colossians 2:16 and what has been shared with you here.

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:
“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary.

Does the above make sense to you
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Romans 14: 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. 5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

ROMANS 14?

Romans 14 in context it is about eating and not eating on days that men esteem over other days. Romans 14 has nothing to do with God''s 4th commandment. In fact it was Paul's custom like Jesus to keep the Sabbath (see Luke 4:16 and Acts of the Apostles 17:2). God's 4th commandment was never in contention.

Very simply to answer claims that Romans 14 is talking about God's 4th commandments is that there is nothing mentioned in the whole chapter of Romans 14 that refers to God's 4th commandment or the seventh day of the week anywhere for that matter even in all the book of Romans. If Paul was trying to argue that God's 4th commandment is now abolished you would think he would be spending a lot of time here on a subject (not just two supposed verses that do not even mention the Sabbath) that was one of God's 10 commandments. When all of Israel had been keeping that Sabbath for 4000 years since it was given by God.

Very simply a careful reading of Romans 14 shows that there is only two verses talking about days that men esteem over other days in regards to eating and not eating and judging others in this regard in application to judgements of opinion in context to food and days that men esteem over other days (Romans 14:1-6).

Keep in mind here reading the chapter you will not see anywhere that the subject matter is talking about eating and not eating on days that God esteems over other days. It does not mention anywhere in the chapter it is talking about God's 10 commandments and neither is there any reference in this chapter that is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath. To come up with an interpretation that Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath is to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach anywhere.

What the scriptures do say and teach simply as we read what is written (not what is not written) we see that Romans 14:1-5 is talking about days that men esteem over other days in regards to eating and not eating certain types of food and judging others in this regard in application to personal opinions in context to food and days that men esteem over other days. It is not talking about days that God esteems over other days and the scriptures tell us that the things that "men esteem" are an abomination to God in Luke 16:15.

So there is no application to any day that God esteems over other days. The day that God esteems over other days according to the scriptures is the "seventh day" Sabbath where we see that God set apart the "seventh day" from all the other days of the week as a memorial of creation and "blessed the seventh day" making it a holy day of rest for all mankind (see Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27) and commands His people to keep it as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth in Exodus 20:8-11.

The scriptures show that Gods' Sabbath is the day that God esteems over other days. Jesus also stating he is the Lord (creator) of the Sabbath *Mark 2:28; Matthew 12;8 and it is His holy day taking ownership of the Sabbath as a day that God esteems over other days as God claims the Sabbath as His holy day in *Isaiah 56:4; Isaiah 58:13; Ezekiel 20:12-24; Ezekiel 22:8; Ezekiel 22:38; Exodus 31:13; Leviticus 19:3)

In fact an interpretation that Romans 14 is talking about the Sabbath pretty much goes against the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles in the entire new testament scriptures as Jesus and the Apostles and Paul and the disciples all kept the Sabbath and continued keeping the Sabbath well after the death and resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Ephesians 5:1-21; Peter 2:20-22; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4).

Romans 14 is mistakenly used by some as “proof” that there is no Sabbath law today. The seventh-day Sabbath was established at creation and included in the 10 Commandments and faithfully remembered by Jesus and the apostles and the New Testament Church. Yet many believe the doubtful things Paul talked about somehow included the Sabbath and made it obsolete for Christians today even when nothing in this regards is written anywhere in the whole chapter of Romans 14.

Romans 14:1 which is the context show that the subject matter here is to do with "doubtful disputations" or “doubtful things”, yet Paul would never refer to the Old Testament as “doubtful.” The Greek word for “doubtful” means “reasoning's” or “opinions” (Romans 14:1-2). In other words, Paul was addressing matters of personal opinion in this chapter, in regards to food and days that men esteem over other days and judging others in this regard, not matters of law.

What does the passage actually say? Romans 14:5-6 “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.”

In order to understand any part of the Bible, it is necessary to take what is said in context. The entirety of verse 6 reads: “He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”

How were the people “observing” a day? There are a few views here. Some believe that it is a reference that was a problem at the time to meat being sold in the market place sacrificed to idols and believers not wanting to eat these meats because they thought they would be offending God. There is evidence of this also happening as a problem for the Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 which uses similar language to that used in Romans 14. Here is a link to an interesting article that may be of interest showing the background to this problem for believers in Paul's day if your interested with further scripture support (Here linked).

Another view is that Romans 14:5-6 is in reference to eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days. This has reference back to the gospels where the Jews would have preference over days for fasting on (eating and not eating) *see Luke 18:10-14. The application here is to days that men esteem over other days for eating and not eating.

SOME POINTS TO CONSIDER IN ROMANS 14:1-23

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments.

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN, BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day
[18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

.................

CONCLUSION: There is nothing about God's 4th commandment anywhere in Romans 14. The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) on days men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Many try and read this into the scriptures but it is just not there in all the chapter.

............

So in summary according to the scriptures, Jesus is not the Sabbath as the Sabbath points backwards not forward to things to come and was made before all law and all sin pointing backwards to the finished work of creation. Colossians 2:16-17 is in reference to Paul quoting old testament scriptures in regards to the old covenant shadow laws of meat and drink offerings, the new moons and the ceremonial sabbaths (not God's 4th commandment) in the feast days being shadows of things to come. While Romans 14 is talking about eating and drinking of days that men esteem over other days and has nothing to do with God's 4th commandment.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: That is not biblical for those who do not know God's law and what is right and what is wrong. According to the scriptures it is Gods' law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin. Even many laws in western society that we have today is based on God's Word. So it is through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is and adultery is one of them *Exodus 20:14. So if your talking about adultery, talking God's name in vain, lying or stealing it really makes no difference to the example provided earlier. If a new Christian does not know something is sin and adultery only being used as an obvious example then it is a sin of ignorance that God does not hold us accountable for until he gives us a knowledge that what we are doing is sin. At this point we are held accountable for sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of His Word.
Your response here...
If you are construing those scriptures to mean that a person who does not have the written law has no knowledge of good and evil, then we disagree about the meaning of those scriptures.
You seem to be not reading my posts to you again. There is the written Word and the Spoken Word of God (see Romans 10:17).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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We agree that Christians grow. If you're saying that a person has to have access to a written copy of the scriptures in order to grow, then we disagree. For one thing, it would mean illiterate people and people who don't have the scriptures in their own language can't grow in Christ. imo, that's kind of drifting away from the topic of the thread, unless we can think of a way to bring it around to the thread topic.
You seem to always say that you have problems understanding posts shared with you that a full of scripture that might be in disagreement with you while pretending I am saying things I have not said (if your saying this and that arguments building strawmans of things I have never said). Perhaps you should pray about it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think it's talking about
"...Gentiles who don’t have the law."
And it says
"...they show the work of the law written in their hearts."
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2 - World English Bible

So it's true that it doesn't apply to everybody, and no context is deleted.

It is also true that sometimes gentiles who don't have the law "do by nature the things of the law."
I prefer what the scriptures teach. The scriptures do not say that gentiles know Gods law without Gods' law and by not knowing God's law if you referring to Romans 2:14. As posted earlier you need to consider the scripture context of Romans 2:14 written in Romans 2:12 that says as many has have sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. So Romans 2:14 does not delete the context of Romans 2:12-13. Romans 2:14 is contrasting the law written on the heart using a gentile as an example to a Jew who teaches the law but breaks it *see Romans 2:14-19. Paul in Romans 2 to Romans 3:9-20 is showing both Jews and Gentiles are all sinners and have broken Gods' law therefore in need of God's grace of forgiveness that we receive through faith. I do not think your considering that the context of Romans 2:14 does not support your interpretation of it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Great, then we can get solidly back on the thread topic. And yes, I'm interested in discussing details! If you believe that the ten commandments did not end at the cross, then do you believe that we are to keep those commandments to the letter, or are we to keep the principles, or both?
As posted earlier there is no scripture. Not a single scripture that says Gods 10 commandments ended at the cross. This is a false teaching of lawlessness (without law) that sadly many are caught up in that is not biblical and against God and His Word that is leading many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God leading many into sin.

According to the scriptures those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of God according to Hebrews 10:26-31. As posted earlier it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible or hearing it (Romans 10:17).

We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says. Therefore if you do not know the letter of God's Word through the spoken or written Word of God then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. God's Word we receive by the spoken or written Word without faith are the letter but with faith become the Spirit and are not separate from each other.

The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63. So your argument about the letter without faith and the Spirit it leads to in not relevant.

Take Care
 
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Your response here...

You seem to be not reading my posts to you again. There is the written Word and the Spoken Word of God (see Romans 10:17).
I do read your posts.

I agree that there is the written word of God and the spoken word of God.
 
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