WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Danthemailman]

James is talking about faith, period. Faith that is evidenced after salvation is the exact same as the faith that leads to salvation. There are not two faiths. And as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith (living, active, evident faith) MUST exist BEFORE salvation is received, because faith is the conduit through which salvation is received. Go ahead, show God your faith without taking action (can’t be done). I will show my faith THROUGH obedient action.

You continue to error by teaching salvation through faith “and works.” We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but we do not establish it. Big difference. I don’t show my faith by taking no action. That is a strawman argument. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. It’s just that simple.

 

[Doug Brents]

You continue to error by teaching salvation through faith “and works.” We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but we do not establish it. Big difference. I don’t show my faith by taking no action. That is a strawman argument. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. It’s just that simple.

According to Scripture, does the soul give life to the body? Or the body to the soul? Which is it?

 

[Danthemailman]

According to Scripture, does the soul give life to the body? Or the body to the soul? Which is it?

The soul, yet what is the source of life to the soul? Can one have a spirit yet be spiritually dead?

 

[Doug Brents]

The soul,

Very good .

Now, according to Scripture, what is analogous to the spirit in regards to faith?

 

[Danthemailman]

Very good .

Now, according to Scripture, what is analogous to the spirit in regards to faith?

I already thoroughly explained this to you. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Doug Brents]

I already thoroughly explained this to you. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

That is not what Scripture says! You have your preconception and you ignore Scripture in favor of your own idea. James 2:26 says very plainly that as the spirit gives life to the body, so action (works) give life to faith. There is no ambiguity in this passage. You just said that it is the spirit that gives life to the body, but now you want to quibble over what Scripture means by spirit. That has already been agreed upon. Now the thing you don’t want to accept is that actions give life to faith. Even if it is referring to breathing, in Genesis God breathed the soul into man (giving life through the spirit) and now man breaths as evidence of life. Exactly so with faith; actions are both the source of life (James 2:26) and the continued evidence of life. But as established by Eph 2:8-9, active faith MUST come before salvation is received because faith is the conduit, the aqueduct, through which God’s grace reaches us.

 

[Danthemailman]

That is not what Scripture says! You have your preconception and you ignore Scripture in favor of your own idea. James 2:26 says very plainly that as the spirit gives life to the body, so action (works) give life to faith. There is no ambiguity in this passage. You just said that it is the spirit that gives life to the body, but now you want to quibble over what Scripture means by spirit. That has already been agreed upon. Now the thing you don’t want to accept is that actions give life to faith. Even if it is referring to breathing, in Genesis God breathed the soul into man (giving life through the spirit) and now man breaths as evidence of life. Exactly so with faith; actions are both the source of life (James 2:26) and the continued evidence of life. But as established by Eph 2:8-9, active faith MUST come before salvation is received because faith is the conduit, the aqueduct, through which God’s grace reaches us.

I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says/claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-3) This is clearly what scripture says.

Works are no more the source of life for faith than fruit is the source of life for a tree. It takes a living faith to produce works just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. This is common sense.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (FIRST) then unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *NOTICE THE ORDER.*

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you believe Salvation can be lost ? Yes or No ?

Please read the OP. That question has already been answered on page one through the scriptures. There is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS). It is a false teaching according to the bible .

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says/claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-3) This is clearly what scripture says.

Works are no more the source of life for faith than fruit is the source of life for a tree. It takes a living faith to produce works just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. This is common sense.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (FIRST) then unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *NOTICE THE ORDER.*

I see it that your trying to separate faith from works and mixing up justification with sanctification by reviewing two separate sets of scripture in this post. Very simply though for anyone interested James is saying that genuine faith is not separate from obeying what Gods' Word says which is why James is saying that he will show us His faith by what he does. For example if God's Word says "thou shalt not kill" and you go out and kill someone. Do you have faith? Of course not because you have not obeyed what God asked you to do. This can be asked to anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and any command in Gods' Word. This is not very hard to understand. Genuine faith has the fruit of doing what God's Word says (see Matthew 7:21; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 see also Hebrews 11). This is why James gives the example of the devils believing and not obeying and that if our faith does not obey what Gods' Word says it is the dead faith of devils and not genuine or true saving faith. Genuine faith therefore simply believes and obeys what Gods' Word says (see Matthew 7:21).

 

[rwe2156]

James is talking about faith, period. Faith that is evidenced after salvation is the exact same as the faith that leads to salvation. There are not two faiths. And as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith (living, active, evident faith) MUST exist BEFORE salvation is received, because faith is the conduit through which salvation is received. Go ahead, show God your faith without taking action (can’t be done). I will show my faith THROUGH obedient action.

Salvation and sanctification are two separate phases of the Christian life.

Believing is the act of faith that leads unto salvation. It is instantaneous and irreversible.

Works is a the fruit of faith which is sanctification - this we participate in voluntarily as sinful men, but always with a view toward living a more pure life devoted to God.

Doug, if your assurance is based on being obedient or doing works, you are on a self-flagellating path, living in fear every day whether you've lost your salvation or not. Who are you trying to please? God, you, or other men?

Assurance is knowing in one's heart they have been born again as a new creature, with a love for God and the things of God. It automatically follows he has begun a path to sanctified living. Most of sanctification is personal & inward because the change is inside. It takes every person different places and different levels.

God allows many people to go through a "desert" phase, and we all have spiritual lows and highs, we could go a few years without "works" that doesn't mean anything to a man - only God knows a man's heart.

Be honest, how many people do you judge because you think they have no works?

 

[Doug Brents]

I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. In context, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says/claims to have faith, but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act by which God accounts the believer as righteous. (Romans 4:2-3) This is clearly what scripture says.

Works are no more the source of life for faith than fruit is the source of life for a tree. It takes a living faith to produce works just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. This is common sense.

Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (FIRST) then unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. *NOTICE THE ORDER.*

Yes, this is talking about “good works” which flow from a great full heart that has been saved. Baptism, repentance, and confession of Jesus’ name are not “good works”! Scripture is very clear that “good works” do not save. You cannot “earn” your way to Heaven by them. But it is equally as clear that there are some actions, like baptism, that “lead to salvation”.
Rom 10:9-10 - very clear that confession with the mouth (physical action) leads to salvation, not flows from!
Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 both say that baptism leads to, not flows from, salvation. And 1 Pet 3:21 says very clearly that baptism is like the flood through which Noah and 7 other souls were saved. And baptism now saves us.
These statements in no way contradict other Scripture because there is only one author of Scripture. He doesn’t contradict Himself.

I do notice the order in Eph 2. God saved us through grace (before the foundation of the world) and created good works for us to live in. This again restates what he says in Rom 5:8, that while we were still enemies of God, He saved us. But that does not cancel out the command that repentance, confession, and baptism lead to (not flow from) salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, this is talking about “good works” which flow from a great full heart that has been saved.

Amen!

Baptism, repentance, and confession of Jesus’ name are not “good works”!

By the time you re-adjust the chronological order and re-define terms and turn this into a 4 step plan of salvation they become good works because you have them "following" faith in Christ as additional requirements for salvation. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Those who have done so have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21)

Jesus referred to water baptism as a "work of righteousness." Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Now read Titus 3:5. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, including water baptism.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” *TOGETHER* (that is, the word of faith which we preach - Romans 10:8-10). This also applies to someone who is MUTE (cannot speak). The word is still in their mouth and in their heart. According to your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10, a mute person would remain lost for failing to "verbally confess out loud" with their mouth.

Also believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation precede water baptism in your 4 step plan of salvation, which is full of holes and contradictions. Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) *Perfect Harmony*

Scripture is very clear that “good works” do not save. You cannot “earn” your way to Heaven by them.

Amen and amen, BUT here it comes...

But it is equally as clear that there are some actions, like baptism, that “lead to salvation”.

How can baptism lead to salvation when we are saved through faith? Plus faith precedes water baptism, even in your 4 step plan of salvation.

Rom 10:9-10 - very clear that confession with the mouth (physical action) leads to salvation, not flows from!

With the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Again, not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together and this precedes water baptism.

Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 both say that baptism leads to, not flows from, salvation.

I already throughly explained Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 to you in post #1359.

WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Be sure to go back and read it again and notice how I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

And 1 Pet 3:21 says very clearly that baptism is like the flood through which Noah and 7 other souls were saved. And baptism now saves us.

I also throughly explained 1 Peter 3:21 to you in post #1359 as well using Biblical hermeneutics. You need to stop isolating pet partial verses and building doctrine on them, then ignoring the context and the rest of Scripture that does not harmonize with your biased interpretations of these pet verses.

These statements in no way contradict other Scripture because there is only one author of Scripture. He doesn’t contradict Himself.

Your biased interpretation of these passages of Scripture on baptism contradict numerous other passages of Scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Peter 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

I do notice the order in Eph 2. God saved us through grace (before the foundation of the world) and created good works for us to live in. This again restates what he says in Rom 5:8, that while we were still enemies of God, He saved us. But that does not cancel out the command that repentance, confession, and baptism lead to (not flow from) salvation.

Repentance (change of mind) new direction of this change of mind (faith in Christ for salvation) believe in our heart unto righteousness/confess with mouth unto salvation chronologically TOGETHER -- saved. Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. Your chronologically flawed 4 step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[Brightfame52]

Please read the OP. That question has already been answered on page one through the scriptures. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. It is a false teaching according to the bible (OSAS).

Okay, so that confirms it without question you believe and promote salvation by works, conditioned on man. That is a false teaching !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Okay, so that confirms it without question you believe and promote salvation by works, conditioned on man. That is a false teaching !

Wrong. Your words have no truth in them. That is not what I believe at all. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9.

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then according to Jesus our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

According to James genuine faith therefore obeys what God's Word says and anything else is the dead faith of devils. May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. Now what is in the scriptures that have been shared with you here that you do not believe?

Take Care

 

[Brightfame52]

Wrong. Your words have no truth in them. That is not what I believe at all. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9.

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith.

According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then according to Jesus our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

According to James genuine faith therefore obeys what God's Word says and anything else is the dead faith of devils. This is what your promoting here which is a false teaching. May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. Now what is in the scriptures that have been shared with you here that you do not believe?

Take Care

You condition salvation on your works, on your obedience, that's works ! And its contrary to Grace !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You condition salvation on your works, on your obedience, that's works ! And its contrary to Grace !

No. I believe no such thing as stated in the very post you are quoting from. Please read it. Your bearing false witness to something I already told you directly I do not believe. What is it from the scriptures provided in the linked post above that you do not believe? If you believe we can believe Gods' Word and not obey what Gods' Word says, then your faith according to James is the dead faith of devils and not genuine saving faith *see James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21; see also Hebrews 11.

 

[Brightfame52]

No. I believe no such thing as stated in the very post you are quoting from. Please read it. Your bearing false witness to something I already told you directly I do not believe. What is it from the scriptures provided in the linked post above that you do not believe? If you believe we can believe Gods' Word and not obey what Gods' Word says, then your faith according to James is the dead faith of devils and not genuine saving faith *see James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21; see also Hebrews 11.

Yes you do, you believe a person can lose their salvation, so thats a dead give away you condition salvation on man, thats works !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes you do, you believe a person can lose their salvation, so thats a dead give away you condition salvation on man, thats works !

No that is not true at all. Follow the scriptures I provide here and tell me what you do not believe in this post? I believe that there is no such thing as "once saved always saved" (OSAS). I also believe that no one is saved by their works as already posted and that we are only saved by Gods' Grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). I also believe James who says genuine faith is shown buy obeying what Gods' Word says and a faith in Gods' Word that does not obey what Gods' Word says is not genuine saving faith but the dead faith of devils *James 2:16-26; see also Matthew 7:21.

Why do I believe these things?

According to the scriptures, OSAS is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture as all scripture and God's promises are "conditional" to believing and obeying what Gods' Word says *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. As Joshua says our part is to choose this day who we will follow *see Joshua 24:15; Deuteronomy 30:19. We have free will to believe or not believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

According to the scriptures we are saved by God's grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God because he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. No one receives Gods' Spirit if they do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32. God's Word says "repentance" or the turning away from sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking God's law and not believing Gods' Word - 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23 is also a condition of receiving God's Spirit according to Peter when he says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38.

As shown throughout this OP and many scriptures from the bible OSAS is not biblical or supported by scripture. Hebrews 6:4-8 and many other scriptures in the bible show that a believer has free will to choose to believe and follow God or to choose to not believe and follow what Gods' Word says. There is also no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that a genuine believer cannot depart the faith at any time of our walk with Jesus. If that was the case "believers" would not be warned against departing the faith in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 12:15; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-7; Galatians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Luke 8:11-15; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Now, do not misunderstand me, true believers cannot lose their salvation but they can forfeit their salvation and willingly throw it away by rebelling against God and His Word. Here is an interesting set of scriptures but together by another member you might like to consider that also agree with the scriptures already provided above that you might find helpful.

For example...

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
• Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:16) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
• (James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Actually, Paul is against the a Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or sin and still be saved type belief.

For Paul says,

1. No one enter God's rest in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 4:1-11)
   
2. Fall away from the faith (Hebrews 6:6)
3. If we continue in sin and unbelief we will be in danger of judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
4. We can draw back from the faith into unbelief and sin (Hebrews 10:38-39)
   
5. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
6. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
7. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
8. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
9. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
10. The Corinthians believers were warned that God would destroy their temple if they defiled it (1 Corinthians 3:17). This was no doubt because the Corinthians justified the sins of strife, and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) which are sins that we see listed in Galatians 5:19-21. Paul said that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Obviously the Corinthian believers were initially saved by the gospel, but they did not continue to abide with God and His good ways by the time Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.
11. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
12. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
13. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
14. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

...............

Lets be careful to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Our thoughts and opinions do not over ride the scriptures which are Gods Word. Now what is it that you disagree with from the scriptures provided in this post?

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

By the time you re-adjust the chronological order and re-define terms and turn this into a 4 step plan of salvation they become good works because you have them "following" faith in Christ as additional requirements for salvation. We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Those who have done so have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21)

Jesus referred to water baptism as a "work of righteousness." Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Now read Titus 3:5. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, including water baptism.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” *TOGETHER* (that is, the word of faith which we preach - Romans 10:8-10). This also applies to someone who is MUTE (cannot speak). The word is still in their mouth and in their heart. According to your interpretation of Romans 10:9-10, a mute person would remain lost for failing to "verbally confess out loud" with their mouth.

You are not listening!!!
Faith REQUIRES action. If there is no action then the faith is worthless and meaningless. Action does not FOLLOW faith. It is a part of faith.
No one here is arguing that there is any time displacement from belief to repentance, confession, and baptism. That is a recent fabrication of man "churches" that want to have their families come and witness the baptism etc. and so they set up "baptism Sunday", lol. There is no such concept in Scripture. There is massive urgency on the part of every minister in NT Scripture to get a confession, encourage repentance, and baptize IMMEDIATELY!!! So no one here is arguing two separate steps to salvation! They are two different concepts, so they have to be mentioned separately. But they should be, as you say, chronologically together.

How can baptism lead to salvation when we are saved through faith?

Easily, because that is what Scripture says!!
Acts 2:38 - "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
Why are we baptized? For the forgiveness of our sins, the same reason we repent. Forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit are both given because of repentance and baptism.

1 Pet 3:21 - "Baptism, which corresponds to this [to what? the Flood], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
What saves us? Baptism! How? Not by removing dirt from our body, but by appeal to God for a clear conscience. What is the power of this salvation? The resurrection of Jesus.

Plus faith precedes water baptism, even in your 4 step plan of salvation.

No, baptism is a lifelong enterprise, not just a momentary thing. It begins with understanding of the Gospel message, and then requires obedient action for the rest of our life, starting with the things that are commanded by God that HE says lead to salvation.
Further, Rom 6 and Eph 2 both say that it is DURING baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ in His resurrection.

I already throughly explained Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 to you in post #1359.

Ahh, so you did. You mangled them, and gave a false "explanation" of them, but you did try.
No, there is NOT a "parenthetical" phrase in Acts 2:38. Forgiveness of sin is linked back to both repentance AND baptism. If there was any kind of dispute about what it relates to, it would relate back to the closest thing in the sentence, and that would be baptism. You are correct that Acts 3:19 relates repentance with salvation. And 1 Pet 3:21 relates baptism with salvation (along with many other passages).

I also throughly explained 1 Peter 3:21 to you in post #1359 as well using Biblical hermeneutics.

Again, you mangled the passage. The passage is not speaking about Spirit baptism, but water baptism. And it says clearly that baptism is the point at which we are saved, not by removing dirt from the body, but through the working of the Holy Spirit (see Rom 6 and Eph 2) who does the action of removing our sin (forgiveness of sin as Acts 2:38 says).

You need to stop isolating pet partial verses and building doctrine on them, then ignoring the context and the rest of Scripture that does not harmonize with your biased interpretations of these pet verses.

You should listen to your own admonition. You ignore clear instruction in Scripture because it does not agree with your preconception.

Your biased interpretation of these passages of Scripture on baptism contradict numerous other passages of Scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Peter 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

As I have pointed out many times, the word for believe in the passages above is the Greek pistis which means faith. It is not a mental assent "belief", but an action filled, evidence producing faith in Christ that brings salvation. This applies to John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 John 5:13.

Acts 15:8-9, 26:18, Rom 3:24-28, 5:1, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9 all refer directly to faith, which requires action. Salvation (a purified heart) is received through faith.

In Acts 10:43, it is clear that this cannot be a simple mental assent belief, because you have already said that repentance is required for forgiveness of sin (Acts 3:19) and this passage only says believe to receive forgiveness. Clearly not every passage that speaks of the requirements for salvation mention everything necessary to receive it.

Titus 3:5, written to people who already know the Gospel, says that we are saved by the washing of rebirth (baptism) and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Yes, the washing of rebirth refers to baptism. We can understand this because this book (letter) was written much later than many of the other books, and Paul would have expected his readers to have, know, and have studied writings where baptism was described, and his direct teaching.

2 Timothy 1:9 does not mean that we do not have to DO anything to receive His grace. It means what it says, that His grace was given before we were even created, thus we could not have done anything to cause Him to give His grace. But it would contradict other Scripture to say we don't have to take any action whatsoever to receive it.

 

[Danthemailman]

You are not listening!!!

I am listening and I hear you loud and clear. This isn't my first rodeo.

Faith REQUIRES action.

Authentic faith results in action. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

If there is no action then the faith is worthless and meaningless. Action does not FOLLOW faith. It is a part of faith.

Like I said before, faith is the ROOT of salvation and action/works which "follow" are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is NO ROOT. That kind of faith is worthless and meaningless because it's an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. If you have placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Faith in Christ results in actions appropriate to faith, but the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith. Faith is faith and works are works.

No one here is arguing that there is any time displacement from belief to repentance, confession, and baptism.

Are you now saying that there is no time displacement between repentance, belief, confession and baptism? They all happen simultaneously?

Also, why do you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and belief?

In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *It's not believe him then afterwards repent.

In Mark 1:15, we read - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. *It's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent.

In Acts 20:21, we read - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

That is a recent fabrication of man "churches" that want to have their families come and witness the baptism etc. and so they set up "baptism Sunday", lol. There is no such concept in Scripture. There is massive urgency on the part of every minister in NT Scripture to get a confession, encourage repentance, and baptize IMMEDIATELY!!!

Not everyone receives Christ through faith then receives water baptism immediately. For me, I received Christ through faith and was saved on a Saturday night several years ago, then I received water baptism on Sunday morning. Are you trying to tell me that there should have been such a since of urgency that I call the Pastor of the church where I was baptized in the middle of the night and request that he baptize me immediately? It could wait until morning. I did not remain lost in my sins overnight until I received water baptism on Sunday morning. I also wanted to get baptized in front of family members and the congregation so they could hear my confession of faith and testimony on how I came to receive Christ through faith. If water is available then go ahead and get baptized immediately if possible, as we see in multiple examples in scripture, that was possible, but that is not always the case in every situation.

So no one here is arguing two separate steps to salvation! They are two different concepts, so they have to be mentioned separately.

But they should be, as you say, chronologically together.

So do you agree with me that belief/faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together? (Romans 10:8-10)

Easily, because that is what Scripture says!!
Acts 2:38 - "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"
Why are we baptized? For the forgiveness of our sins, the same reason we repent. Forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit are both given because of repentance and baptism.

As I already previously explained to you, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

1 Pet 3:21 - "Baptism, which corresponds to this [to what? the Flood], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
What saves us? Baptism! How? Not by removing dirt from our body, but by appeal to God for a clear conscience. What is the power of this salvation? The resurrection of Jesus.

You seem to focus mainly on the words, "saved by water" (KJV) in 1 Peter 3:20 and assume this means the water is what actually saved Noah and his family, however, the Greek is saved "through" (di) water. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). So once again, the context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

No, baptism is a lifelong enterprise, not just a momentary thing. It begins with understanding of the Gospel message, and then requires obedient action for the rest of our life, starting with the things that are commanded by God that HE says lead to salvation.

God never said that works lead to salvation. Actually just the opposite. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Works flow from salvation.

Further, Rom 6 and Eph 2 both say that it is DURING baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ in His resurrection.

Only your eisegesis says that. The removal of sins and being united with Christ in His resurrection is signified, but not procured in water baptism. This remains your achilles heel from trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

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