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Danthemailman

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He knows his sheep. Once we understand what was behind it, we understand the true meaning of "gift".
John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them, (not some of them I know and some of them I don't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow me and some of them don't follow me) 28 And I give them eternal life, (not some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of my hand and some of them will be snatched out of my hand).

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them, (not some of them I know and some of them I don't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow me and some of them don't follow me) 28 And I give them eternal life, (not some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of my hand and some of them will be snatched out of my hand).

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

You may need to consider the scripture context dear friend as these scriptures do not support your view. Why? The answer is in the scriptures you have provided. "My sheep" represent Gods' people and the context to these scriptures. Who are Gods' people (sheep)? They are those who hear His voice (the Word of God) and follow Him. That is God's people (sheep) hear, believe and obey Gods' Word (His voice). Note who those are who are not Gods' people (His sheep)? Those who are not God's people (his sheep) are those who do not hear His voice (His Word) and do not follow (obey God's Word). So that context to these promises are to Gods' people who hear and obey (follow) what Gods' Word says. It is God's people who are present tense "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says that God gives "eternal life". It is God's people who are present tense "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says that "shall never perish". It is God's people who are present tense "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says that God says no one can snatch them out of His hands. Your disregarding scripture context. Gods' Word does not teach that we can believe and not follow (obey) what Gods' Word says. These people according to these scriptures are not God's sheep.

Hope this is helpful
 
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Brightfame52

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If that were true you would be able to prove your claims as I have asked you many times to show me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law and if I have never said any such thing and told you as much why bear false witness pretending I am saying things I have never said? It seems from our conversation you do not understand the difference between justification from sin and sanctification through faith in God's Word and the difference between believing and following what God's Word says. James says believing and not obeying Gods' Word is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26.

Take Care
It is True, and you have proved it, its written in almost in every post you make. You condition Salvation on what a person does, which is totally against Grace which the scripture teacheth
 
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Doug Brents

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Salvation by faith + actions which follow = salvation by faith + works any way you slice, dice or sugar coat it. Period. I don't ignore those verses that you cited above, but I also do not misinterpret them in such a way which contradicts salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Works-salvationists try to "get around" the fact that we are saved through faith, not works, by either saying we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works or else they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, which results in basically defining faith "as" works. Such people will say faith "is" baptism. Faith "is" obeying the 10 commandments. Faith "is" keeping the sabbath day. Faith "is" multiple acts of obedience accomplished after one has been saved through faith. etc.. This of course is erroneous.
You like to talk about “sugar-coated double talk”, this was a load of it.

As I said before, you must ignore, explain away, or mistreat many passages that emphatically instruct action on man’s part in order to arrive at your doctrine.

There is NOTHING in any translation of the Bible separating “repent” and “be baptized” in Acts 2:38 that would indicate that “for the remission of sins” does not apply to both. If anything, it would apply to the closest thing to it which is baptism.
Mark 16:16 is the same. It doesn’t matter that baptism is not mentioned in the second half, because if you don’t believe, getting baptized only gets you wet; you don’t meet the Holy Spirit there.
Rom 6 tells us that it is IN baptism that we are united with Christ. As does Eph 2.

I could go on, but you have made up your mind. It is pointless to continue. I am saddened that you choose to believe as you do. I pray that your heart would be opened.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is True, and you have proved it, its written in almost in every post you make. You condition Salvation on what a person does, which is totally against Grace which the scripture teacheth

If that were true you would be able to prove your claims as I have asked you many times to show me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law and post me a single link to where I have ever said this. You haven't because I have never said or believe such things and if I have never said any such thing and told you as much why bear false witness pretending I am saying things I have never said?

It seems from our conversation you do not understand the difference between justification from sin and sanctification through faith in God's Word and the difference between believing and following what God's Word says. James says believing and not obeying Gods' Word is simply the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. That is it is not genuine faith.

According to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on what a person believes and does. If you do not believe what Gods' Word says we do not have eternal life. Read the scriptures

John 3:36 36, He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

If you do not do the will of the father you do not have eternal life...

Matthew 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Something to pray about.
 
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Brightfame52

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If that were true you would be able to prove your claims as I have asked you many times to show me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law and post me a single link to where I have ever said this. You haven't because I have never said or believe such things and if I have never said any such thing and told you as much why bear false witness pretending I am saying things I have never said?

It seems from our conversation you do not understand the difference between justification from sin and sanctification through faith in God's Word and the difference between believing and following what God's Word says. James says believing and not obeying Gods' Word is simply the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. That is it is not genuine faith.

According to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on what a person believes and does. If you do not believe what Gods' Word says we do not have eternal life. Read the scriptures

John 3:36 36, He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

If you do not do the will of the father you do not have eternal life...

Matthew 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Something to pray about.
They been proven, even by your very own words
 
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Danthemailman

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You like to talk about “sugar-coated double talk”, this was a load of it.
Just the opposite and there is a huge difference between sugar-coated double talk (and the end result is salvation through faith and works) and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture (and the end result is salvation by grace through faith, not works).

As I said before, you must ignore, explain away, or mistreat many passages that emphatically instruct action on man’s part in order to arrive at your doctrine.
I neither explain away or mistreat passages of scripture, but instead properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to arrive at my doctrine. It's you who explains away and mistreats many passages of scripture in order to arrive at your "patched together" gospel plan that culminates in works salvation.

There is NOTHING in any translation of the Bible separating “repent” and “be baptized” in Acts 2:38 that would indicate that “for the remission of sins” does not apply to both. If anything, it would apply to the closest thing to it which is baptism.
False and multiple Greek scholars would disagree with you. Greek scholar AT Robertson - Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed “in the name of Jesus Christ” (εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου — en tōi onomati Iēsou Christou).

"One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received."

Acts 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Greek scholar E Calvin Beisner said something similar - In short, the most precise English translation of the relevant clauses, arranging them to reflect the switches in person and number of the verbs, would be, “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular)….” Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, “Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized….”

When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century and co-author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (originally published in 1927), he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament. These arguments, lexical and grammatical, stand independently. Even if one rejects both lexical meanings of for, he still must face the grammatical argument, and even if he rejects the grammatical conclusion, he still must face the lexical argument.

Does Acts 2:38 prove baptismal remission? No, it doesn’t even support it as part of a cumulative case. — E. Calvin Beisner

Does Acts 2:38 Teach Baptismal Remission? | Christian Research Institute

Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

Oneness Pentecostals believe the work of Baptism saves

Mark 16:16 is the same. It doesn’t matter that baptism is not mentioned in the second half, because if you don’t believe, getting baptized only gets you wet; you don’t meet the Holy Spirit there.
Rom 6 tells us that it is IN baptism that we are united with Christ. As does Eph 2.
It absolutely does matter that baptism is not mentioned in the second half of Mark 16:16 (and in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:50,47; 11:25,26) and there are many people in various false religions and cults who believe "mental assent" in the existence and in historical facts about Christ, including that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened", but they don't truly believe the gospel by FAILING to TRUST in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of their salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) These same people only end up getting wet and do not receive the Holy Spirit for failing to believe the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

In regards to Romans 6, baptism is the PICTURE of being united with Christ. I like the way Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that it is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). Being buried, raised and united with Christ is signified, but not procured in water baptism.

I could go on, but you have made up your mind. It is pointless to continue.
Ditto.

I am saddened that you choose to believe as you do. I pray that your heart would be opened.
No need to be saddened. My heart was opened several years ago upon leaving a false religion that taught works salvation and receiving Christ through faith and I never looked back! I now believe in the name of the Son of God and I know that I have eternal life. (John 1:12; 1 John 5:13) Praise God! :)

The funny thing is, even according to your 4 step plan of salvation, I'm still saved. I have repented, I have with the heart believed unto righteousness and with the mouth confessed unto salvation and afterwards I received water baptism. Just not in the same chronological order and with the same purpose of your 4 step plan of salvation. So it's not believe (still lost) repent (still lost) confess (still lost) get baptized (finally saved) which does not harmonize with (Luke 24:47; John 3:18; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 10:9,10). I pray that your heart would be opened.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Just the opposite and there is a huge difference between sugar-coated double talk (and the end result is salvation through faith and works) and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture (and the end result is salvation by grace through faith, not works).

Hi Dan,

I agree, salvation is by grace through faith. None of us deserve grace because we all have sinned, thats why its a gift. The gift of grace is available to all who has faith. Faith is not passive. The fruit of a man is what shows if one has faith.

Scripture shows us the fruit of a saved person.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Being obedient to God and His law is not what saves. It’s our faith in Him and we want to obey Him through our faith because we have a changed heart. This is a fruit of a saved person. Jesus promises we don’t have to do this alone, for those who want to obey He provides us with the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32. If we stumble and fall, we can go directly to Jesus who is just and will forgive us when we repent. We repent because we are sorry and want to have a changed heart. When we commit ourselves to Christ and want to walk with Him in obedience thats when we should be baptized as a symbol of a new birth in Christ. Acts 2:38

God bless.
 
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rwe2156

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So it's not believe (still lost) repent (still lost) confess (still lost) get baptized (finally saved) which does not harmonize with (Luke 24:47; John 3:18; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 10:9,10). I pray that your heart would be opened.


What an excellent post. Wow, this is what is at the core of all our (mis)understanding about eternal security. Understanding the condition of an unsaved, natural person's heart leads to all kinds of false doctrines. Once the heart is regenerated a new man is born. It is totally dependent on God's effective call. As well as the fact there is NOTHING any man can do to change it. On the flip side, you cannot lose what you never had.

Lets take a minute Nicodemus as an example. Just prior at the end of John 2 we are told the condition of the heart. "Many believed in his name because of faith by sight. Jesus knows what is in a man & did not entrust himself, for he knew what was in man - an unregenerate, unrepentant, wicked heart, that must be receive the Spirit first. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, the Spirit is spirit. No one knows why or where it comes from it is God's sovereign role in salvation.

So, the unregenerate heart is unable & unwilling. We were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh or man, but of God.

The unregenerate heart is incapable of conviction of sin leading to repentance. This is not quitting smoking!

The unregenerate heart cannot impel a sincere confession of faith. No one can say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit.

It has to be that Man MUST be born again first. It is with the regenerate heart through the Holy Spirit one believes unto salvation. I cannot depend on human will or a decision.

Therefore, eternal security cannot depend strictly on human will or decision. It is God who sees us through to the end.

If more preachers and evangelists understood the condition of those they were evangelizing to, they would spend 10X more time praying and less time asking people to walk an aisle.

How does this apply to losing one's salvation? Sadly, so many people truly and completely born again will never know exactly how it happened because they believe a false doctrine, and are led astray by denominational dogma. They will live out their sanctification through works, under a constant fear of "do this/don't do that" and a misapplication of "faith without works is dead".

I think one day the message they will hear is "you didn't have to do all that, I bought you with a price." To others, "why did you call me Lord, Lord?"

Truly, if salvation can be lost, then Christ's death was not efficacious enough.

We cannot "unborn" ourselves!!
 
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Blade

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Hi..would seem how one reads and personally understands His word is being shared. For me I can only share not tell you what GOD really means in His word. I am fighting so to speak my self in whether I should post or not. Well I would pray one knows when it comes to Heb 6 and Heb 10 ..one has to dig. There is to this day debates on exactly what Paul was talking about. Have you only tasted? You tasted and know about the powers of the age to come? :) Luke 11 13 filled with the sweet holy Spirit? Walking in the gifts as He guides and leads? Just one of those (Heb 6/Heb 10) He the sweet sweet holy Spirit was talking to Jewish believers that would sin and then go back and try to offer a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Christ can not die again. By them doing that puts Christ to open shame. <--this part is not a debate but fact.

Yes just these two chapters has cased many to stumble with fear (from the enemy) that its talking about them praise GOD its not. Those two chapters are not a good foundation so to speak to talk about salvation. Well willingly sin. Who here has never willingly sinned? Yeap we all have at one time or another. There are those that hear and understand are not saved yet willingly after hearing knowing Christ died for the sin of the world go on sinning. They reject Him and the what HE did on the cross. We that believe our sins were taking to the cross and are no more and GOD no longer sees them. There is no sin I did or will do that Christ didn't die for. If I after hearing that Christ died for the sin of the world and then walk away, reject HIm and go on sinning there is no longer or remains a sacrifice for sins.

Salvation what is it? Its not from man but a GOD that left (the word) heaven becomes flesh and dies for the sin of the world. Its not a simple choice. Something new was made.. that new man which after GOD is created in righteousness and true holiness. Paul said.. its no longer I that sin "it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.". We are now seated in heavenly places "and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,". My point is that new man who can undo what a GOD made? No one speaks that when talking about "you can lose your salvation". Back to the start you have not even touched salvation. In Samual God said the lord does not see as man does He sees the heart. So that alone tells you we can not see as GOD sees. Ever have GOD show you someones heart? Only once for me in 50 years. How they were acting talking.. oh was so bad yet this love comes over me.... that was so wonderful so beautiful and I saw their heart.

What was unreal was their heart was nothing what so ever like they were acting. I praise GOD no man gets a say in how He saves. Since we don't see as He does. Man lol there are fallen angles and demons and so many false doctrines and I didn't even touch Christ. Whos gospel are you holding them to? What you personally believe? Christ said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Christ said if He had not come and done all He said and did Israel would have no sin.

So anyone that wonders.. its not what I say or any one else when it comes to your relationship/salvation. John 3:16 Rom 10 9-10. You believe that your in Christs hands and His are in the Fathers. You are forever with Him. There are so many awful things that can happen in this life and lol He truly understands that. He will never give up on you.. never leave you never forsake you. ANYONE that comes to Him He will never toss you out.

I once told Him I was quitting since I read if my heart convicts me I will never get anything from God. So I told Him my heart convicts me 24/7...you know of sin. I got up to walk away you know what GOD asked me? He asked me "what is righteousness?" I turned and said righteousness is right standing with God. He then asks "how to you get righteousness?" I said by believing in Jesus...oh man something happened could not stop crying was like being blind and then you can see. I didn't know for sure what I said was true I then went to look it up (No internet then).

He was telling me..its no how I see me its how He sees me. See its what Christ did.. I believe in Jesus.. that new man is seated in heavenly places and me as man have no power to undo what a God has made new. ALL this is what I believe. That tends to be left out.. forgive me not here to offend
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What an excellent post.
Well that depends if you believe the scriptures or not or seek to follow man made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.
Wow, this is what is at the core of all our (mis)understanding about eternal security. Understanding the condition of an unsaved, natural person's heart leads to all kinds of false doctrines. Once the heart is regenerated a new man is born. It is totally dependent on God's effective call. As well as the fact there is NOTHING any man can do to change it. On the flip side, you cannot lose what you never had.
There is no such thing as "once saved always saved". According to the scriptures, it is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture as all scripture and God's promises are "conditional" to believing and following what Gods' Word says *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. As Joshua says our part is to choose this day who we will follow *see Joshua 24:15; Deuteronomy 30:19. We have free will to believe or not believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.
Lets take a minute Nicodemus as an example. Just prior at the end of John 2 we are told the condition of the heart. "Many believed in his name because of faith by sight. Jesus knows what is in a man & did not entrust himself, for he knew what was in man - an unregenerate, unrepentant, wicked heart, that must be receive the Spirit first. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, the Spirit is spirit. No one knows why or where it comes from it is God's sovereign role in salvation.
According to the scriptures we are saved by God's grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God because he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. No one receives Gods' Spirit if they do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32. God's Word says "repentance" or the turning away from sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking God's law and not believing Gods' Word - 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23 is also a condition of receiving God's Spirit according to Peter when he says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38.
So, the unregenerate heart is unable & unwilling. We were born, not of blood nor the will of the flesh or man, but of God.
When is through faith in God's Word according to the scriptures because "the seed" is the Word of God according to Jesus *see Luke 8:11 and it is this see (Gods' Word) that remains in someone that is "born again" through the Spirit of God which is why John says in 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (God's Word) remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
This is why Paul says we are saved by Gods' grace through faith (in God's Word) it is a gift of God and not or works lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9
The unregenerate heart is incapable of conviction of sin leading to repentance. This is not quitting smoking! The unregenerate heart cannot impel a sincere confession of faith. No one can say Jesus is Lord without the Spirit. It has to be that Man MUST be born again first. It is with the regenerate heart through the Holy Spirit one believes unto salvation. I cannot depend on human will or a decision.
See Romans 7 of the unregenerate heart. The Holy Spirit will convict all people of sin according to Jesus where he says in John 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment (see also John 8:9). No one can be born of God if they do not have faith in Gods' Word (see previous section).
How does this apply to losing one's salvation? Sadly, so many people truly and completely born again will never know exactly how it happened because they believe a false doctrine, and are led astray by denominational dogma. They will live out their sanctification through works, under a constant fear of "do this/don't do that" and a misapplication of "faith without works is dead". I think one day the message they will hear is "you didn't have to do all that, I bought you with a price." To others, "why did you call me Lord, Lord?" Truly, if salvation can be lost, then Christ's death was not efficacious enough.!
As shown through out this OP and many scriptures from the bible there is no such thing as once saved always saved. This is a false teaching not supported in the scriptures. Hebrews 6:4-8 and many other scriptures in the bible disagree with you here as they are warnings of people that have genuine faith and departed the faith so Gods' Word (not mine) disagrees with you here . There is also no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that a genuine believer cannot depart the faith at any time of our walk with Jesus. If that was the case "believers" would not be warned against departing the faith in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 12:15; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-7; Galatians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Luke 8:11-15; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation but they can forfeit their salvation and willingly throw it away by rebelling against God and His Word. Here is an interesting set of scriptures but together by another member you might like to consider that also agree with the scriptures already provided above that you might find helpful.

For example...

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Actually, Paul is against the a Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or sin and still be saved type belief.

For Paul says,
  1. No one enter God's rest in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 4:1-11)
  2. Fall away from the faith (Hebrews 6:6)
  3. If we continue in sin and unbelief we will be in danger of judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
  4. We can draw back from the faith into unbelief and sin (Hebrews 10:38-39)
  5. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
  6. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
  7. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
  8. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
  9. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
  10. The Corinthians believers were warned that God would destroy their temple if they defiled it (1 Corinthians 3:17). This was no doubt because the Corinthians justified the sins of strife, and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) which are sins that we see listed in Galatians 5:19-21. Paul said that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Obviously the Corinthian believers were initially saved by the gospel, but they did not continue to abide with God and His good ways by the time Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.
  11. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
  12. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
  13. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
  14. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
...............

Lets be careful to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Our thoughts and opinions do not over ride the scriptures which are Gods Word.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.
 
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Rapture Bound

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Danthemailman said [post #1347], "An empty profession of faith that produces no action/works demonstrates that it's dead. (James 2:14)."

My comment :

Well said! Here's an excellent video which expounds upon your statement and provides the proper perspective concerning the relationship between faith and works :

<
> "The Meaning of Faith Without Works, and How We're Saved: Looking at James 2:14-26." ... "James is not saying that faith plus works saves you, he is saying that dead faith can't save you."
 
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rwe2156

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Well that depends if you believe the scriptures or not or seek to follow man made teachings and traditions that lead us away from Gods and His Word. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.
I didn't read the whole post. But clearly the issue is not whether you lose it, but whether you understand what is behind a person's ability to believe. That starts with understanding the natural man, his heart of stone, and the bondage of the will.

Of course salvation is conditional on believing.. It is only the regenerated heart that can believe. But leaving it up to man to maintain his salvation? Yes, I realize the flip side of that is complete free will, and living in rebellion, etc. The process of sanctification moves a Christian away from that and its different for every person.

Once you understand that man is NOT the instrument of believing, you will understand what God's gives, he does not take away.

Acts of faith are sanctification and have nothing to do with the status of a person. Whatever acts of faith a person performs are according to their ability and gifts.

Under your misguided theology, a person can float in and out of salvation and have no real reassurance - only confidence that THEY have chosen to hold on to what was given.

And people like you must be so grateful --- to yourselves --- that you are in control of your destiny!

I'll repeat, it is sad that so many pople live out their earthly lives under this illusion.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I didn't read the whole post.
You should try reading the whole post before responding. I am not saying anything you are posting about in the post you made so I am not sure what your talking about here so your making arguments no one is arguing about. So I suggest reading the post you are quoting from and addressing what is being said in my post so I am able to follow what your talking about. Thanks for your understanding. I spent the time addressing your earlier post section by section. If you are here for a discussion please do likewise to address my post and the scriptures provided there that disagree with your teachings in post # 1372 linked.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Danthemailman said [post #1347], "An empty profession of faith that produces no action/works demonstrates that it's dead. (James 2:14)."

My comment :

Well said! Here's an excellent video which expounds upon your statement and provides the proper perspective concerning the relationship between faith and works :"The Meaning of Faith Without Works, and How We're Saved: Looking at James 2:14-26." ... "James is not saying that faith plus works saves you, he is saying that dead faith can't save you."

All of this is a moot point and a strawman argument no one is talking about because no one is saying that you have to have faith plus works. What is being said here in case you have a misunderstanding is that genuine faith in Gods' Word obeys what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Let's be careful to read and believe what the scriptures teach.

God bless
 
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Danthemailman

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Danthemailman said [post #1347], "An empty profession of faith that produces no action/works demonstrates that it's dead. (James 2:14)."

My comment :

Well said! Here's an excellent video which expounds upon your statement and provides the proper perspective concerning the relationship between faith and works :

Looking at James 2:14-26." ... "James is not saying that faith plus works saves you, he is saying that dead faith can't save you."
Amen brother. Thank you for sharing the video and God bless you! :)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Amen brother. Thank you for sharing the video and God bless you! :)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

Amazing, another one making arguments no one is arguing about. Please post me a link to one comment from anyone in this thread or in this forum where they say we are justified by the works of the law? If no one has made these claims why pretend that they have? If everyone is in agreement what is your argument? - You have none because your making arguments that no one is arguing about.

Take Care
 
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Brightfame52

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All of this is a moot point and a strawman argument no one is talking about because no one is saying that you have to have faith plus works. What is being said here in case you have a misunderstanding is that genuine faith in Gods' Word obeys what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27.

Let's be careful to read and believe what the scriptures teach.

God bless
Do you believe Salvation can be lost ? Yes or No ?
 
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Doug Brents

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We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.
James is talking about faith, period. Faith that is evidenced after salvation is the exact same as the faith that leads to salvation. There are not two faiths. And as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith (living, active, evident faith) MUST exist BEFORE salvation is received, because faith is the conduit through which salvation is received. Go ahead, show God your faith without taking action (can’t be done). I will show my faith THROUGH obedient action.
 
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