WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Danthemailman]

Ahh, so you did. You mangled them, and gave a false "explanation" of them, but you did try. No, there is NOT a "parenthetical" phrase in Acts 2:38. Forgiveness of sin is linked back to both repentance AND baptism. If there was any kind of dispute about what it relates to, it would relate back to the closest thing in the sentence, and that would be baptism. You are correct that Acts 3:19 relates repentance with salvation. And 1 Pet 3:21 relates baptism with salvation (along with many other passages).

I mangled nothing, but instead, properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. I'm sorry that you do not understand.

Again, you mangled the passage. The passage is not speaking about Spirit baptism, but water baptism. And it says clearly that baptism is the point at which we are saved, not by removing dirt from the body, but through the working of the Holy Spirit (see Rom 6 and Eph 2) who does the action of removing our sin (forgiveness of sin as Acts 2:38 says).

More eisegesis on your part and water baptism is the picture, but Spirit baptism is the reality. Once again, as Greek scholar AT Robertson stated, a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Romans 6 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

You should listen to your own admonition. You ignore clear instruction in Scripture because it does not agree with your preconception.

That statement is the epitome of irony.

As I have pointed out many times, the word for believe in the passages above is the Greek pistis which means faith. It is not a mental assent "belief", but an action filled, evidence producing faith in Christ that brings salvation. This applies to John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 John 5:13.

You redefine belief to "include" works. So do ALL works-salvationists. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Before I placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation several years ago, I was confused about this as well and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works and the end result was works-salvation.

Now I heard certain people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved through belief "conjoined with works" as I at one time had temporarily attended the church of Christ in my late teen years. Faith in the churches of Christ seems to be understood as nothing more than ‘intellectual assent” or accepting the facts of the Christian faith. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and of the rest of the Bible, but no mention of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. I have even heard a CoC preacher cite that “even the devils believe” (from James 2:19) in his sermon and contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any good works. Those who believe such nonsense obviously cannot grasp a deeper faith which trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. This also explains why such people have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation.

Someone on a Christian forum who attends the church of Christ once made this statement to me - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." That's the classic saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument that I often hear from works-salvationists. So how many works must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us? I asked that question to the man who made that statement, but he had no answer.

Acts 15:8-9, 26:18, Rom 3:24-28, 5:1, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9 all refer directly to faith, which requires action. Salvation (a purified heart) is received through faith.

We are saved through faith in Christ FIRST then the actions "follow" as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith, but not as the essence of faith and also not as the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. You keep basically defining faith "as" the actions which "follow" then you teach that the believer is saved by BOTH faith AND works. This continues to remain your achilles heel.

In Acts 10:43, it is clear that this cannot be a simple mental assent belief, because you have already said that repentance is required for forgiveness of sin (Acts 3:19) and this passage only says believe to receive forgiveness. Clearly not every passage that speaks of the requirements for salvation mention everything necessary to receive it.

This belief in Acts 10:43 goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief, such as - I believe that Jesus Christ exists, is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened." Even the demons believe that. We must also trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order for this to become saving belief. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Repentance (change of mind) is required for salvation and this change of mind precedes saving belief in Christ. Two sides to the same coin. When only believe in regards to obtaining salvation in Scripture is mention, repentance is implied or assumed because it precedes saving belief.

Titus 3:5, written to people who already know the Gospel, says that we are saved by the washing of rebirth (baptism) and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Yes, the washing of rebirth refers to baptism.

More eisegesis on your part. The washing of rebirth is a reference to spiritual washing or purification of the soul that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation. Water in Scripture does not always refer to baptism, but is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word (not through plain ordinary H20) which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3)

In Ephesians 5:26, we see washing of water by the word (not by plain ordinary H20).

Also in 1 Peter 1:22, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God (not through plain ordinary H20) which lives and abides forever.

Jesus uses the word "water" in John 4:10,14 and qualifies what He means by it -- "living water." Jesus uses the word "water" not the term "baptism" in John 3:5 and since Jesus connects "living water" with receiving everlasting life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39, it makes much more sense that water in John 3:5 refers to living water, rather than plain ordinary H20, which does not flow through our heart and has no power to cleanse the heart. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

We can understand this because this book (letter) was written much later than many of the other books, and Paul would have expected his readers to have, know, and have studied writings where baptism was described, and his direct teaching.

The Bible clearly states in Titus 3:5 that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, (literally, "of works which are done in righteousness" which includes water baptism Matthew 3:13-15. Jesus was water baptized to fulfill all righteousness so water baptism is a work of righteousness and Titus 3:5 fully refutes the doctrine of salvation by water baptism. *Hermeneutics*

2 Timothy 1:9 does not mean that we do not have to DO anything to receive His grace.

Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly states what we must DO. Place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in works.

It means what it says, that His grace was given before we were even created, thus we could not have done anything to cause Him to give His grace. But it would contradict other Scripture to say we don't have to take any action whatsoever to receive it.

The contradiction is produced from teaching that we are saved by BOTH faith AND WORKS which is not supported by Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you now saying that there is no time displacement between repentance, belief, confession and baptism? They all happen simultaneously?

Also, why do you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and belief?

In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *It's not believe him then afterwards repent.

In Mark 1:15, we read - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. *It's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent.

In Acts 20:21, we read - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

The scriptures you provide here do not support your view that repentance comes before faith. How can you have repentance if you do not know or believe Gods' Word or why you need to repent or what you even need to repent from? Of course we must know Gods' Word in order to have faith and repent from our sins as it is written; "We are saved by Grace through faith, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast" - Ephesians 2:8 and again "Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the word of God" - Romans 10:17 and again "Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6 and "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" - Romans 14:23. So how can you have repentance without faith in Gods Word? - You cannot. You might want to go back and revisit your view here. You say you are "harmonizing the scriptures here" but I do not see any evidence of this claim in this section of your post and kind of lost interest reading the rest of your posts after this.

Anyhow, hope this is helpful

 

[Brightfame52]

No that is not true at all. Follow the scriptures I provide here and tell me what you do not believe in this post? I believe that there is no such thing as "once saved always saved" (OSAS). I also believe that no one is saved by their works as already posted and that we are only saved by Gods' Grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). I also believe James who says genuine faith is shown buy obeying what Gods' Word says and a faith in Gods' Word that does not obey what Gods' Word says is not genuine saving faith but the dead faith of devils *James 2:16-26; see also Matthew 7:21.

Why do I believe these things?

According to the scriptures, OSAS is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture as all scripture and God's promises are "conditional" to believing and obeying what Gods' Word says *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. As Joshua says our part is to choose this day who we will follow *see Joshua 24:15; Deuteronomy 30:19. We have free will to believe or not believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them (see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

According to the scriptures we are saved by God's grace through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9 and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God because he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. No one receives Gods' Spirit if they do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32. God's Word says "repentance" or the turning away from sin which is defined in the scriptures as breaking God's law and not believing Gods' Word - 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23 is also a condition of receiving God's Spirit according to Peter when he says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38.

As shown throughout this OP and many scriptures from the bible OSAS is not biblical or supported by scripture. Hebrews 6:4-8 and many other scriptures in the bible show that a believer has free will to choose to believe and follow God or to choose to not believe and follow what Gods' Word says. There is also no scripture anywhere in the bible that says that a genuine believer cannot depart the faith at any time of our walk with Jesus. If that was the case "believers" would not be warned against departing the faith in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 4:11; Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 12:15; 1 Timothy 1:18-20; 1 Timothy 4:1-7; Galatians 5:2-4; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Peter 3:17; Luke 8:11-15; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Now, do not misunderstand me, true believers cannot lose their salvation but they can forfeit their salvation and willingly throw it away by rebelling against God and His Word. Here is an interesting set of scriptures but together by another member you might like to consider that also agree with the scriptures already provided above that you might find helpful.

For example...

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
• Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:16) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
• (James 5:19-20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Actually, Paul is against the a Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or sin and still be saved type belief.

For Paul says,

1. No one enter God's rest in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 4:1-11)
   
2. Fall away from the faith (Hebrews 6:6)
3. If we continue in sin and unbelief we will be in danger of judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
4. We can draw back from the faith into unbelief and sin (Hebrews 10:38-39)
   
5. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
6. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
7. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
8. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
9. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
10. The Corinthians believers were warned that God would destroy their temple if they defiled it (1 Corinthians 3:17). This was no doubt because the Corinthians justified the sins of strife, and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3) which are sins that we see listed in Galatians 5:19-21. Paul said that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Obviously the Corinthian believers were initially saved by the gospel, but they did not continue to abide with God and His good ways by the time Paul wrote 1st Corinthians.
11. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
12. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
13. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
14. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

...............

Lets be careful to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Our thoughts and opinions do not over ride the scriptures which are Gods Word. Now what is it that you disagree with from the scriptures provided in this post?

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

Yes, if you dont believe in eternal security, then you condition final salvation on man, what he does or doesnt do. Thats works, Doesnt matter how many scriptures you quote. You still deny Salvation by Grace.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, if you dont believe in eternal security, then you condition final salvation on man, what he does or doesnt do. Thats works, Doesnt matter how many scriptures you quote. You still deny Salvation by Grace.

Works-salvationists don't believe in eternal security because they base salvation on their works/imperfect obedience/performance instead of basing it on Jesus Christ ALONE. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1,2) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS. Period.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, authentic faith results in action (faith has life through action (James 2:26), and as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith is the conduit through which we receive grace, "by grace you are saved through faith". So then, living faith must precede the reception of grace (salvation).

Authentic faith results in action and faith has life through Christ (Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved...through faith, not works (not faith and works) and yes, faith is the conduit through which we receive grace, "by grace you are saved through faith." Also in Romans 5:2, we read - through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not faith and works) in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

*You error here by saying that "faith has life through action." You have it backwards and life in faith is demonstrated through action. Your error results in salvation by faith "and works." Works-salvationists try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith (but the shoe doesn't fit) and another way of putting it is they try to "sneak works through the back door" of salvation through faith.

Once again, in James 2:26 the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

*You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Get this essential truth wrong and you will get tripped up every time.

I never said there was a time displacement between any of those. There is ALWAYS

Still clinging to your 4 step plan of salvation that reverses the Scriptural order of repentance and faith and culminates in salvation by water baptism? Sigh..

 

[Doug Brents]

Authentic faith results in action. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

Like I said before, faith is the ROOT of salvation and action/works which "follow" are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is NO ROOT. That kind of faith is worthless and meaningless because it's an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. If you have placed your faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Faith in Christ results in actions appropriate to faith, but the actions are NOT INHERENT in faith. Faith is faith and works are works.

Obviously you are not listening, because we already established that it is the spirit that gives life to the body, and as James 2:26 says, the body is the same as faith, and the spirit is the same as actions which give life to their respective counterparts. Action gives life to faith. "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." It is also true that action flows out of faith, but without action the faith is worthless in the first place.

Are you now saying that there is no time displacement between repentance, belief, confession and baptism? They all happen simultaneously?

I never said there was any time displacement between those actions. You put a time displacement in them. Scripture ALWAYS places an urgency on moving from belief in Christ to salvation in baptism.

Also, why do you reverse the scriptural order of repentance and belief?

In Matthew 21:32, we read - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *It's not believe him then afterwards repent.

In Mark 1:15, we read - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. *It's not believe the gospel then afterwards repent.

In Acts 20:21, we read - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

Again, there is no time displacement (to use your phrase again) between these two. Repentance is a change of mind, attitude, and action, in Biblical terms from evil to Godliness. If you do not believe there is nothing motivating a change in direction. If you do not change direction, you do not believe. They are simultaneous, and inseparable.

Not everyone receives Christ through faith then receives water baptism immediately. For me, I received Christ through faith and was saved on a Saturday night several years ago, then I received water baptism on Sunday morning. Are you trying to tell me that there should have been such a since of urgency that I call the Pastor of the church where I was baptized in the middle of the night and request that he baptize me immediately?

Absolutely!! I have seen it, and been a part of it, many times. I do not know a single minister who would not joyously jump out of bed at any time of night to participate in the saving of a soul.

It could wait until morning. I did not remain lost in my sins overnight until I received water baptism on Sunday morning.

According to Scripture you did. Rom 6:3-4 says, "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
How did we get "into Christ"? Through baptism.
Where were we united with Christ's death? When we were buried with Him in baptism.

Again, Eph 2:11-12, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
When were we buried with Christ? In baptism.
When did the Spirit circumcise (cut away) our sins and sinful nature from us? In baptism.
When were we raised with Christ through faith? In baptism.

I also wanted to get baptized in front of family members and the congregation so they could hear my confession of faith and testimony on how I came to receive Christ through faith. If water is available then go ahead and get baptized immediately if possible, as we see in multiple examples in scripture, that was possible, but that is not always the case in every situation.

There is no example in Scripture of "Stop, wait until my family can be here to see me be born again." None. The example in Scripture is of haste from the point of belief and repentance to obtain a confession of Christ's name and baptize the person "for the forgiveness of their sins".

As I already previously explained to you, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

Still you misread Scripture. There is no parenthesis. There is no separation. All of you repent, as a group they can turn away from evil. It was the mob who shouted for Jesus' blood, so the mob can turn away from that evil. But each individual must choose to be baptized to receive forgiveness of his own sin.

In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit fell with miraculous power on the first Gentile converts. He did not remove their sins at that point. He removed their sins when they were baptized, just as He did for every other convert from Pentecost to today.

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18).

Rom 6 and Col 2 don't say that we are forgiven when we repent. They don't say that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us when we believe. They do say that it is during baptism, when we are buried with Christ, that we are united with His death, and resurrected like Him by the same power that resurrected Him, the Holy Spirit.

You seem to focus mainly on the words, "saved by water" (KJV) in 1 Peter 3:20 and assume this means the water is what actually saved Noah and his family, however, the Greek is saved "through" (di) water. (NKJV, NASB, NIV). The ESV reads ..eight persons, were brought safely through water. Noah and his family saved "through" water does not mean that the water is what literally saved them, rather, the ARK is what literally saved them from the destructive flood waters. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). So once again, the context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. *By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

Noah and his family were saved through DOING what they were told, and brought safely through the water of the Flood to the salvation of their lives. We are saved through DOING what we are told, and brought safely through the water of baptism to the salvation of our soul.

God never said that works lead to salvation. Actually just the opposite. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Works flow from salvation.

Only your eisegesis says that. The removal of sins and being united with Christ in His resurrection is signified, but not procured in water baptism. This remains your achilles heel from trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

I absolutely trust in Christ alone for salvation. If it were not for His death and resurrection, nothing we do in this life would have any meaning whatsoever, let alone save us (1 Cor 15:14-17). But if we trust Him, we must do what He says. And He says explicitly that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). Anyone who does not believe is already condemned. If someone "believes", but doesn't obey, then the really don't believe. Anyone who truly does believe will obey naturally. And it is in obedience that salvation is procured, for Christ is the author of salvation to all who obey Him (Heb 5:9) (not to those who "believe" but do not obey).

 

[Doug Brents]

You error here by saying that "faith has life through action." You have it backwards and life in faith is demonstrated through action. Your error results in salvation by faith "and works." Works-salvationists try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith (but the shoe doesn't fit) and another way of putting it is they try to "sneak works through the back door" of salvation through faith.

Once again, in James 2:26 the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

*You need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Get this essential truth wrong and you will get tripped up every time.

It does not make any difference if it is 50 years after salvation, or immediately before salvation, if there is no action, then the faith is dead, worthless, and of no effect. Without action there is no faith, and thus no salvation.

There is no "sneek"ing going on here. There is no "shoehorning" works into faith. There is either alive, active, obedient faith, or there is dead, worthless, actionless nothing. And as Eph 2 says, that faith MUST come before salvation is received because it is the conduit through which salvation is received.

 

[Doug Brents]

Works-salvationists don't believe in eternal security because they base salvation on their works/imperfect obedience/performance instead of basing it on Jesus Christ ALONE. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1,2) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS. Period.

Question for you, is it a physical act to say something with your mouth?

 

[Danthemailman]

Obviously you are not listening, because we already established that it is the spirit that gives life to the body, and as James 2:26 says, the body is the same as faith, and the spirit is the same as actions which give life to their respective counterparts. Action gives life to faith. "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." It is also true that action flows out of faith, but without action the faith is worthless in the first place.

Its you who is not listening. Action does not give life to faith. Action simply demonstrates that faith is alive. I already throughly explained this in post #1406.

I never said there was any time displacement between those actions. You put a time displacement in them. Scripture ALWAYS places an urgency on moving from belief in Christ to salvation in baptism.

There is nothing wrong with getting water baptized as soon as we possibly can after we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are saved, yet the opportunity is not always there. In the examples in Scripture, the opportunity was there, so why not immediately? That doesn't mean it's an urgent 'do or die immediately or else' action. I was water baptized the following morning of my conversion. That was fast enough. I didn't wait a week, a month or a year to receive water baptism. I was saved through faith prior to receiving water baptism the following morning.

Again, there is no time displacement (to use your phrase again) between these two. Repentance is a change of mind, attitude, and action, in Biblical terms from evil to Godliness. If you do not believe there is nothing motivating a change in direction. If you do not change direction, you do not believe. They are simultaneous, and inseparable.

The word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind).

Absolutely!! I have seen it, and been a part of it, many times. I do not know a single minister who would not joyously jump out of bed at any time of night to participate in the saving of a soul.

I'm sure you have seen it may times if you attend a church that teaches you must be water baptized in order to be saved, yet hearts are purified by faith and not by water baptism. (Acts 15:9)

According to Scripture you did. Rom 6:3-4 says, "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." How did we get "into Christ"? Through baptism. Where were we united with Christ's death? When we were buried with Him in baptism.

You are still confusing the picture with the reality. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we read that by one Spirit we are baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. So in what sense would believers be water "baptized into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in 1 Corinthians 10:2. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Paul says that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses. Think about it.

Again, Eph 2:11-12, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
When were we buried with Christ? In baptism.
When did the Spirit circumcise (cut away) our sins and sinful nature from us? In baptism.
When were we raised with Christ through faith? In baptism.

Again, water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. I already previously covered this, but you are not listening.

There is no example in Scripture of "Stop, wait until my family can be here to see me be born again." None. The example in Scripture is of haste from the point of belief and repentance to obtain a confession of Christ's name and baptize the person "for the forgiveness of their sins".

That's much easier to accomplish when you are already in church or at an Evangelistic event. Not everyone is able to receive water baptism immediately and it's not water baptism that saves our souls anyway.

Still you misread Scripture. There is no parenthesis. There is no separation. All of you repent, as a group they can turn away from evil. It was the mob who shouted for Jesus' blood, so the mob can turn away from that evil. But each individual must choose to be baptized to receive forgiveness of his own sin.

I misread nothing and properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, but you continue to ignore the truth for the sake of your biased doctrine.

In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit fell with miraculous power on the first Gentile converts. He did not remove their sins at that point. He removed their sins when they were baptized, just as He did for every other convert from Pentecost to today.

Absolutely false! These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE receiving water baptism. To teach otherwise is to be dishonest.

Rom 6 and Col 2 don't say that we are forgiven when we repent. They don't say that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us when we believe. They do say that it is during baptism, when we are buried with Christ, that we are united with His death, and resurrected like Him by the same power that resurrected Him, the Holy Spirit.

As long as you insist on confusing the PICTURE (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism) I can't help you any further.

Noah and his family were saved through DOING what they were told, and brought safely through the water of the Flood to the salvation of their lives. We are saved through DOING what we are told, and brought safely through the water of baptism to the salvation of our soul.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

I absolutely trust in Christ alone for salvation.

Not if you are trusting in Christ + your baptism or Christ + other works.

If it were not for His death and resurrection, nothing we do in this life would have any meaning whatsoever, let alone save us (1 Cor 15:14-17).

So you believe that His death, burial and resurrection was something that had to happen in order to make it possible for you to save yourself through water baptism + other works?

But if we trust Him, we must do what He says. And He says explicitly that those who believe the Gospel and are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). Anyone who does not believe is already condemned.

Who did Jesus say would be condemned in Mark 16:16(b) and John 3:18? Whoever is not baptized OR whoever does not BELIEVE?

If someone "believes", but doesn't obey, then the really don't believe.

If someone truly believes then I see no reason why they would refuse to get water baptized, but a death bed conversion can happen. Just look at the thief on the cross. He believed, but was unable to receive water baptism but was still saved.

Anyone who truly does believe will obey naturally.

The problem is there have been many people who have received water baptism (in various false religions and cults) but don't truly believe in Christ unto salvation.

And it is in obedience that salvation is procured, for Christ is the author of salvation to all who obey Him (Heb 5:9) (not to those who "believe" but do not obey).

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe the gospel.

 

[Danthemailman]

It does not make any difference if it is 50 years after salvation, or immediately before salvation, if there is no action, then the faith is dead, worthless, and of no effect. Without action there is no faith, and thus no salvation.

There is no "sneek"ing going on here. There is no "shoehorning" works into faith. There is either alive, active, obedient faith, or there is dead, worthless, action less nothing. And as Eph 2 says, that faith MUST come before salvation is received because it is the conduit through which salvation is received.

I see that you are still trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but to no avail. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! Again, all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) No works at all would demonstrate a dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[Danthemailman]

Question for you, is it a physical act to say something with your mouth?

Sure is and the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation and all BEFORE water baptism. Now what about someone who is MOOT (unable to physically speak with his mouth). Does such a person remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sure is and the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation and all BEFORE water baptism. Now what about someone who is MOOT (unable to physically speak with his mouth). Does such a person remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10?

Or if someone hears the gospel in the middle of the Sahara Desert and believes then dies of dehydration because there’s no water around. Is he condemned because there was no water for him to be baptized in?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It does not make any difference if it is 50 years after salvation, or immediately before salvation, if there is no action, then the faith is dead, worthless, and of no effect. Without action there is no faith, and thus no salvation.

There is no "sneek"ing going on here. There is no "shoehorning" works into faith. There is either alive, active, obedient faith, or there is dead, worthless, actionless nothing. And as Eph 2 says, that faith MUST come before salvation is received because it is the conduit through which salvation is received.

Evidence is not proof of something. The fuel gauge on my car can show that the tank is completely empty even tho it is full of gas and vice versa. Our works can be evidence of our faith but those who are new to the faith may not have works to show for it yet. The determining factor is the genuineness of their faith not the evidence for or against it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Works-salvationists don't believe in eternal security because they base salvation on their works/imperfect obedience/performance instead of basing it on Jesus Christ ALONE. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1,2) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS. Period.

Yeah once a person says they dont believe in Eternal Security, its a wrap, they believe Salvation is conditioned on man.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, if you dont believe in eternal security, then you condition final salvation on man, what he does or doesnt do. Thats works, Doesnt matter how many scriptures you quote. You still deny Salvation by Grace.

Nope, not at all. The scriptures already posted in posted # 1398 linked and the OP on page one here linked and here linked are Gods' Words that disagree with your words that are not Gods. I asked you to respond to these posts and tell me what you do not believe from the scriptures posted in these linked posts, that prove that any believer can choose to depart the faith by their own free will and choose to forfeit everlasting life by returning to known unrepentant sin and not believing and following what Gods Word says. All I hear back from you is silence in addressing these posts that are full of scripture that disagrees with you and your opinion that are unsupported by scripture. If you believe that you can believe Gods' Word but not obey it then James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. According to the scriptures believing and not obeying Gods' Word is not genuine saving faith and this teaching is not biblical and is a false teaching just like once saved always saved (OSAS) as proven through the scriptures provided in the linked posts above that you refuse to address or respond to. Now of course you are free to believe as you wish and I do not judge you. That has never been in question. According to Jesus we all answer to God come judgement day for the Words of God we accept or reject according *John 12:47-48. Our opinions do not really matter much in God's eye, as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yeah once a person says they dont believe in Eternal Security, its a wrap, they believe Salvation is conditioned on man.

GOD'S GRACE AND SALVATION ARE CONDITIONAL ON FAITH

According to the scriptures, Gods' gift of eternal life is a free gift of God's grace that we receive through faith and there is nothing we can do to earn it *Ephesians 2:8-9. However Gods' free gift of Grace that we receive through faith is "conditional" to receiving it through faith which is "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says. So if we do not have faith which we receive from Gods' Word *Romans 10:17 we cannot receive Gods' free gift of grace and everlasting life because it is "conditional" to receiving Gods' grace through faith and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him *Hebrews 11:6. The bottom line is if we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says which is genuine faith we will not see Gods' promise of everlasting life because we are still in our sins according to the scriptures *Romans 14:23.

GOD'S SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL TO BELIEVING AND OBEYING GOD'S WORD

Believing..

• John 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Obeying..

• Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Confession of sin..

• 1 John 1:9 [9], If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Proverbs 29:13 13, He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

• Proverbs 28:9 9, He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Repentance of sin..

• Acts of the Apostles 2:38 [38], Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

• Acts of the Apostles 5:32 [32], And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

• Acts of the Apostles 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

• Acts of the Apostles 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent

• Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Let's look a little deeper,

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

OLD TESTAMENT (not definitive)

Hebrew meaning of “IF”

• “IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well in order to be accepted...

• Genesis 4:7 “IF” (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

• Exodus 18:23 “IF” (conditional) thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Consequences for not believing and following...

• Genesis 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and “IF” (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

• Exodus 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and “IF” (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

• Exodus 15:26 And said, “IF” (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

• Leviticus 26:3-5 [3], “IF” (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

• Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, “IF” (conditional) ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

• Leviticus 26:14-18 [14], But “IF” (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Note: There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

Greek meaning of “IF”

• “IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

• 1 John 1:9 [9], “IF” (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Matthew 6:14-15 [14], For “IF” (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But “IF” (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

• Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

• Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, “IF” (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Gods' conditions for receiving His Spirit and inheriting eternal life...

• Matthew 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but “IF” (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

• John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: “IF” (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

• John 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for “IF” (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

• John 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, “IF” (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

• Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES the will of my Father which is in heaven.

• John 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, “IF” (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

• John 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, “IF” (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

• John 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but “IF” (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

• John 14:15 “IF” (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

• JOHN 15:10 “IF” (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

• John 15:14 You are my friends, “IF” (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

• John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “IF” (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

• John 15:6-7 [6], “IF” (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], “IF” (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

• John 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

• 1 John 1:9 [9], “IF” we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Acts of the Apostles 2:38 [38], Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

................

Note: There are too many scriptures to list so only a few have been posted here.

SUMMARY: As shown above through the scripture, God's Word teaches that our salvation and His promises are all "conditional" on "believing and following" what God's Word says which the bible defines as genuine faith. All the scriptures provided above once again are Gods' Word that disagrees with your words that are not Gods'. If someone believes Gods' Word and does not obey what Gods Word says James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Brightfame52]

Nope, not at all. The scriptures already posted in posted # 1398 linked and the OP on page one here linked and here linked are Gods' Words that disagree with your words that are not Gods. I asked you to respond to these posts and tell me what you do not believe from the scriptures posted in these linked posts, that prove that any believer can choose to depart the faith by their own free will and choose to forfeit everlasting life by returning to known unrepentant sin and not believing and following what Gods Word says. All I hear back from you is silence in addressing these posts that are full of scripture that disagrees with you and your opinion that are unsupported by scripture. If you believe that you can believe Gods' Word but not obey it then James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. According to the scriptures believing and not obeying Gods' Word is not genuine saving faith and this teaching is not biblical and is a false teaching just like once saved always saved (OSAS) as proven through the scriptures provided in the linked posts above that you refuse to address or respond to. Now of course you are free to believe as you wish and I do not judge you. That has never been in question. According to Jesus we all answer to God come judgement day for the Words of God we accept or reject according *John 12:47-48. Our opinions do not really matter much in God's eye, as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take care

Once you've acknowledged you dont believe in eternal security of the saint, believer, sheep-its settled, you believe salvation is conditioned on man, thats works !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Once you've acknowledged you dont believe in eternal security of the saint, believer, sheep-its settled, you believe salvation is conditioned on man, thats works !

No, I believe no such thing. Please read the scriptures already posted that disagree with you in posted # 1398 linked and post # 1416 that are Gods' Words that disagree with your words that are not Gods'. According to the scriptures, our salvation is conditional on believing and obeying what Gods' Word. Obedience to what Gods' Word says is the fruit of genuine faith. Anything else according to James is not saving faith but the dead faith of devils according to the scriptures *James 2:16-26.

Take Care.

 

[Brightfame52]

GOD'S GRACE AND SALVATION ARE CONDITIONAL ON FAITH

According to the scriptures, Gods' gift of eternal life is a free gift of God's grace that we receive through faith and there is nothing we can do to earn it *Ephesians 2:8-9. However Gods' free gift of Grace that we receive through faith is "conditional" to receiving it through faith which is "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says. So if we do not have faith which we receive from Gods' Word *Romans 10:17 we cannot receive Gods' free gift of grace and everlasting life because it is "conditional" to receiving Gods' grace through faith and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him *Hebrews 11:6. The bottom line is if we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says which is genuine faith we will not see Gods' promise of everlasting life because we are still in our sins according to the scriptures *Romans 14:23.

GOD'S SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL TO BELIEVING AND OBEYING GOD'S WORD

Believing..

• John 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Obeying..

• Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Confession of sin..

• 1 John 1:9 [9], If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Proverbs 29:13 13, He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

• Proverbs 28:9 9, He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Repentance of sin..

• Acts of the Apostles 2:38 [38], Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

• Acts of the Apostles 5:32 [32], And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

• Acts of the Apostles 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

• Acts of the Apostles 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent

• Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Let's look a little deeper,

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

OLD TESTAMENT (not definitive)

Hebrew meaning of “IF”

• “IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well in order to be accepted...

• Genesis 4:7 “IF” (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

• Exodus 18:23 “IF” (conditional) thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

Consequences for not believing and following...

• Genesis 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and “IF” (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

• Exodus 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and “IF” (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

• Exodus 15:26 And said, “IF” (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

• Leviticus 26:3-5 [3], “IF” (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

• Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, “IF” (conditional) ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

• Leviticus 26:14-18 [14], But “IF” (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Note: There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

Greek meaning of “IF”

• “IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

• 1 John 1:9 [9], “IF” (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Matthew 6:14-15 [14], For “IF” (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But “IF” (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

• Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

• Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, “IF” (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Gods' conditions for receiving His Spirit and inheriting eternal life...

• Matthew 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but “IF” (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

• John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: “IF” (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

• John 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for “IF” (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

• John 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, “IF” (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

• Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES the will of my Father which is in heaven.

• John 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, “IF” (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

• John 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, “IF” (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

• John 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but “IF” (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

• John 14:15 “IF” (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

• JOHN 15:10 “IF” (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

• John 15:14 You are my friends, “IF” (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

• John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “IF” (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

• John 15:6-7 [6], “IF” (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], “IF” (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

• John 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.Matthew 7:21 [21], Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

• 1 John 1:9 [9], “IF” we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• Acts of the Apostles 2:38 [38], Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

................

Note: There are too many scriptures to list so only a few have been posted here.

SUMMARY: As shown above through the scripture, God's Word teaches that our salvation and His promises are all "conditional" on "believing and following" what God's Word says which the bible defines as genuine faith. All the scriptures provided above once again are Gods' Word that disagrees with your words that are not Gods'. If someone believes Gods' Word and does not obey what Gods Word says James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26.

Hope this is helpful.

once a person says they dont believe in Eternal Security, its a wrap, they believe Salvation is conditioned on man.

Faith is the Gift of God and is dependent on Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Brightfame52]

Not at all. Please read the scriptures posted in post # 1416 that are Gods' Words that disagree with your words that are not Gods'. According to the scriptures, our salvation is conditional on believing and obeying Gods' Word. Anything else according to James is not saving faith and the dead faith of devils according to the scriptures *James 2:16-26.

Take Care.

Yes its final, you reject eternal security, you believe in salvation conditioned on man, thats works and denies Grace !