WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[Brightfame52]

Oh really? So the $500 Million ring that was in the box was "earned" by you when you picked up the box and unwrapped it? And all the things you received on Christmas and birthdays were "earned" by you when you unwrapped them?

Hmmm.

Yes thats a work, you did something to get it. Now if one day I check my bank account balance, and i realize that a million dollars has been deposited to my account, and its legally mine, thats a gift. I did absolutely nothing to receive it, to get it. I only found out about it, and it was good news.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Its plain as the noon day sun, you condition Salvation on what a person does !

Then prove it. Post me a single link to where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' grace through the works of the law. If you cannot why pretend I am saying things I have never said to you and do not believe even after I have told you many times that is not what I believe at all?

 

[Brightfame52]

Then prove it. Post me a single link to where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' grace through the works of the law. If you cannot why pretend I am saying things I have never said to you and do not believe even after I have told you many times that is not what I believe at all?

You proved it. I read your posts. You condition salvation on what a person does

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh really? So the $500 Million ring that was in the box was "earned" by you when you picked up the box and unwrapped it? And all the things you received on Christmas and birthdays were "earned" by you when you unwrapped them?

Hmmm.

Yes you condition Salvation on you doing something, repenting, baptism and so forth. Thats works and diametrically opposed to Grace !

Grace is a person waking up one morning, calling their bank, listening to the balance, and find out they have a million dollars put to their account, and its legally theirs. Thats gift given, and all they did was hear about it. Thats how the Gospel rolls, it discovers into the mind and heart of those who have righteousness imputed to their account by and through the Lord Jesus Christ, its a Gift of Righteousness.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You proved it. I read your posts. You condition salvation on what a person does

Well that is not true at all dear friend. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding. If what you claim is true about what you say I believe you would be able to prove your claims by showing me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law but you cannot because I have never said such things and have already told you do not believe this. Your the one making accusations that you are unable to prove dear friend not me. I have already posted and told you exactly what I believe which is the opposite of what your claiming here. You cannot post and link me a single reference where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' grace through the works of the law can you. If you cannot why pretend I am saying things I have never said to you and do not believe even after I have told you many times that is not what I believe at all? Perhaps let me ask you a question about genuine faith if it might be helpful. Do we show our faith in God's Word by believing but not obeying what God asks us to do or by believing and doing what Gods' Word says *see James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21 Hebrews 11; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-3?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

del

 

[Danthemailman]

Sorry Dan, but action is not the FRUIT of faith.

Action/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ and are produced "out of" faith certainly are the FRUIT of faith.

It is the soul, the thing that gives life to, faith. James 2:26 says, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
Thus, body is to spirit
just as faith is to action.

False. The body in essence is not the spirit just as faith in essence is not the action. In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Now, as Eph 2:8-9 tells us, faith comes BEFORE grace (salvation) is received, because it (faith) is the conduit through which grace is received.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Not faith and works.

Without faith, salvation is not received.

Amen! Yet you also continue to "add" works to the equation of salvation through faith, not works.

And faith without action is dead. Actions of obedience MUST come before salvation is received. What actions? The actions specified in Scripture as leading to salvation.

An empty profession of faith that produces no action/works demonstrates that it's dead. (James 2:14)

Abraham was accounted as righteous for his faith.

Amen! Accounted as righteous for his faith, but not for his works. (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

His faith was not only demonstrated by his sacrificing Isaac, but also for all of his actions, from leaving Ur when God told him to on. Again, all the things he DID were the soul of his faith. Without those actions his faith would have been dead (without effect, powerless, worthless).

Actions/works were demonstrated (key word) by his faith, but these actions were neither the soul of his faith or the very essence of his faith. Without those actions, he would have demonstrated a dead faith, but of course, his faith was authentic, so a dead faith was not the case.

Which make life: the body or the spirit? The spirit gives life to the body. When God breathed into man, man became a living soul. So too with faith. Life is given to faith (the body) by the actions taken (the soul).

The spirit does give life to the body and Christ gives life to our spirit. Apart from Christ we are spiritually dead. Ephesians 2:4 - But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) not by works. (Ephesians 2:5-9) Again, life in faith from the spirit is the source of the actions and not the other way around. You have this backwards which also explains why you teach salvation by works. According to your flawed logic, a dead fruit tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and the fruit is the source of life for the tree.

Faith IS action.

Faith is belief, trust, reliance and actions which "follows" are works. Prior to my conversion several years ago, I did not understand the difference either.

Salvation was not brought to mankind because of any works we had done; we were enemies of God, and did not deserve to be saved. But that does not stop there being actions necessary to receive that salvation.

More sugar coated double talk/works salvation.

I never said differently. All of the actions necessary to receive salvation should be done IMMEDIATELY upon coming to belief in Christ. In Scripture (especially in Acts) there is ALWAYS urgency placed on taking action upon belief. There is never any time wasted from the point of belief before the believer is baptized into Christ and thus saved.

Faith + baptism = faith + works. Your faith is in baptism (plus other works) for salvation. My faith is in Christ for salvation. Whether believers receive water baptism 1 minute, 1 hour or 1 day after conversion, they are still saved through believing in Christ and not by water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

Again, that is not saying there is nothing that man has to do.

For you it's always about man must DO something "in addition" to what Christ DID. Why do you turn to supplements? Not by works of righteousness which we have done is crystal clear, yet you say it is by works of righteousness which we have done. I believe Paul over you. Either Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior and we are saved by grace through faith, not works or else He is an IN-sufficient Savior and we are saved by works.

It is saying that man, being in a state of enmity with God, did not deserve to be saved. We had not done anything that deserved the life of the Son of God. But God gave His Son to us as a sacrifice to open the door and bring us back into relationship with Him.

We certainly do not deserve to be saved and Christ saves us. We don't save ourselves. We are not the Savior.

I agree that there is not, and cannot be, a complete cessation from sin. Even Paul wrestled with himself and his inability to stop sinning.

Amen!

And as you say, repentance does come before salvation as Acts 3:19 says. But it does not precede faith, because it is done in faith. It is part of faith that saves.

Repentance does precede faith and is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin.

Again, this is not talking about no works being necessary.

Yes it is - saved us..not according to our works is crystal clear, yet you say that we are saved according to our works. You can't have it both ways.

It is not the dipping, nor the leprosy, that is my point with Naaman. The point is, as with the other stories listed below, that action was required on the part of the recipient of the blessing. Naaman was not cleansed when he chose to dip (began). He was not cleansed when he dipped 6 times (was part way there). He was cleansed 100% (skin like a baby's) when he had completed what was instructed.

Receiving a blessing based on action is not the same as receiving salvation by grace through faith, not works.

The water does nothing to remove sin, as 1 Pet 3 says. But the Holy Spirit, who meets us in the water, does remove our sin in baptism just as it says in Rom 6:1-5 and Eph 2:11-14.

Eisegesis on your part. You confuse water baptism (the picture) with Spirit baptism (the reality).

The point is that belief does not save; obedience does.

Belief saves. Just ask Jesus. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) Obedience which "follows" is works and we are not saved by works. Will you ever come to understand this?

Jesus is not the author of salvation to those who believe in Him. He is the author of salvation to those who OBEY Him.

I already explained this to you. Works-salvationists typically confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by works. Once again in Hebrews 5:9, only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

There are unbelievers everywhere who do things that God says to do.

You certainly can and for the wrong reasons and with the wrong motivations. It's easy to find such unbelievers - "nominal Christians" in various false religion and cults that claim to be Christian.

But that does not make them saved, nor does it give them power or blessing.

It certainly does not make them saved, yet such people believe they are saved anyway based on their works. Sadly, there are many people who fall into this category. (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes thats a work, you did something to get it. Now if one day I check my bank account balance, and i realize that a million dollars has been deposited to my account, and its legally mine, thats a gift. I did absolutely nothing to receive it, to get it. I only found out about it, and it was good news.

Based on this post, I have now lost all respect for your integrity.
A gift does not cease to be a gift because you had to unwrap it. Nor does it cease to be a gift because you had to qualify to receive it..

 

[Brightfame52]

Well that is not true at all dear friend. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding. If what you claim is true about what you say I believe you would be able to prove your claims by showing me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law but you cannot because I have never said such things and have already told you do not believe this. Your the one making accusations that you are unable to prove dear friend not me. I have already posted and told you exactly what I believe which is the opposite of what your claiming here. You cannot post and link me a single reference where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' grace through the works of the law can you. If you cannot why pretend I am saying things I have never said to you and do not believe even after I have told you many times that is not what I believe at all? Perhaps let me ask you a question about genuine faith if it might be helpful. Do we show our faith in God's Word by believing but not obeying what God asks us to do or by believing and doing what Gods' Word says *see James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21 Hebrews 11; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:2-3?

You condition salvation on what a person does !

 

[Brightfame52]

Based on this post, I have now lost all respect for your integrity.
A gift does not cease to be a gift because you had to unwrap it. Nor does it cease to be a gift because you had to qualify to receive it..

You base salvation by works, not a Gift, no matter how you camouflage it.

 

[Doug Brents]

You base salvation by works, not a Gift, no matter how you camouflage it.

Not true at all. I base salvation on the promise of God who said that IF I (and all humanity) repent of sin, confess His name, and am baptized into Him, He will give me eternal life. If I (and all humanity) don’t do those things, then I am already condemned by my sin. That is what He said, not what I am saying. I would prefer it were like you want it, but that is not how He set it up.

 

[Danthemailman]

Not true at all. I base salvation on the promise of God who said that IF I (and all humanity) repent of sin, confess His name, and am baptized into Him, He will give me eternal life. If I (and all humanity) don’t do those things, then I am already condemned by my sin. That is what He said, not what I am saying. I would prefer it were like you want it, but that is not how He set it up.

The 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe (but still lost) 2. Repent (but still lost) 3. Confess (but still lost) 4. Get baptized (in that order) then finally saved is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[rwe2156]

I haven't followed the thread but just reading the last few posts, may I say this:

WHY answers all the questions about doubting or losing salvation. IOW understanding what & who was behind it then you understand it was never of your own doing, it was never by any ritual, or altar walk, or public proclamation, or recitation of a testimony - No, it was ONLY by God's mysterious will, a regenerated heart, and the hearing of the Gospel.

If you believe it was determined it by YOUR decision, then by nature, YOU think you must DO what's needed to keep it. And this is the way we all start out in our journey, because we know nothing of the theology behind what happened to us, only the experiential aspect of coming to Christ.

But if you did what you did because it depended on GOD, NOT HUMAN WILL OR A HUMAN DECISION (Rom 9, John 2), you may still think you can lose it, you'll be wrong, but you'll still be saved!!

He knows his sheep. Once we understand what was behind it, we understand the true meaning of "gift".

The danger of tilting too much to that side, is thinking we can sit around thinking we are saved, but never bothering to understand the God who saved us, never worshipping or understanding grace.........maybe we never had it to begin with.

 

[Doug Brents]

The 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe (but still lost) 2. Repent (but still lost) 3. Confess (but still lost) 4. Get baptized (in that order) then finally saved is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

It only appears that way when you start with the preconception that all actions must come after salvation occurs. But that is not a Biblical concept. There are some actions that are expressly stated as leading to (not following after) salvation.

From what you are saying, some passages of Scripture must be more important than others. Because you ignore passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-5, Eph 2:11-14, Eph 5:26, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, and many others. And when you do, you come to the wrong conclusion and must misinterpret many other passages. These passages are no less Scripture than the passages you have cited, and they expressly say that actions that man must take lead to the reception of salvation, and without taking those actions man does not receive salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not true at all. I base salvation on the promise of God who said that IF I (and all humanity) repent of sin, confess His name, and am baptized into Him, He will give me eternal life. If I (and all humanity) don’t do those things, then I am already condemned by my sin. That is what He said, not what I am saying. I would prefer it were like you want it, but that is not how He set it up.

Like I said, you condition salvation of man, what he does, thats works !

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You condition salvation on what a person does !

If that were true you would be able to prove your claims as I have asked you many times to show me where I have ever said to you that we receive Gods' Grace by the works of the law and if I have never said any such thing and told you as much why bear false witness pretending I am saying things I have never said? It seems from our conversation you do not understand the difference between justification from sin and sanctification through faith in God's Word and the difference between believing and following what God's Word says. James says believing and not obeying Gods' Word is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The 4 step plan of salvation 1. Believe (but still lost) 2. Repent (but still lost) 3. Confess (but still lost) 4. Get baptized (in that order) then finally saved is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

It doesn't stop there. We need to also 5. Continue to believe and follow what Gods' Word says to remain in this faith according to the scriptures *Matthew 7:21; Hebrews 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:16-26; Hebrews 11; John 10:26-27.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I haven't followed the thread but just reading the last few posts, may I say this:

WHY answers all the questions about doubting or losing salvation. IOW understanding what & who was behind it then you understand it was never of your own doing, it was never by any ritual, or altar walk, or public proclamation, or recitation of a testimony - No, it was ONLY by God's mysterious will, a regenerated heart, and the hearing of the Gospel.

If you believe it was determined it by YOUR decision, then by nature, YOU think you must DO what's needed to keep it. And this is the way we all start out in our journey, because we know nothing of the theology behind what happened to us, only the experiential aspect of coming to Christ.

But if you did what you did because it depended on GOD, NOT HUMAN WILL OR A HUMAN DECISION (Rom 9, John 2), you may still think you can lose it, you'll be wrong, but you'll still be saved!!

He knows his sheep. Once we understand what was behind it, we understand the true meaning of "gift".

The danger of tilting too much to that side, is thinking we can sit around thinking we are saved, but never bothering to understand the God who saved us, never worshipping or understanding grace.........maybe we never had it to begin with.

Hi nice to meet you rwe. Page one pretty much sums up most of the discussion here.

 

[Danthemailman]

It only appears that way when you start with the preconception that all actions must come after salvation occurs. But that is not a Biblical concept. There are some actions that are expressly stated as leading to (not following after) salvation.

From what you are saying, some passages of Scripture must be more important than others. Because you ignore passages like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:1-5, Eph 2:11-14, Eph 5:26, Gal 3:26-27, 1 Pet 3:21, and many others. And when you do, you come to the wrong conclusion and must misinterpret many other passages. These passages are no less Scripture than the passages you have cited, and they expressly say that actions that man must take lead to the reception of salvation, and without taking those actions man does not receive salvation.

Salvation by faith + actions which follow = salvation by faith + works any way you slice, dice or sugar coat it. Period. I don't ignore those verses that you cited above, but I also do not misinterpret them in such a way which contradicts salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Works-salvationists try to "get around" the fact that we are saved through faith, not works, by either saying we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works or else they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, which results in basically defining faith "as" works. Such people will say faith "is" baptism. Faith "is" obeying the 10 commandments. Faith "is" keeping the sabbath day. Faith "is" multiple acts of obedience accomplished after one has been saved through faith. etc.. This of course is erroneous.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics*

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Before mentioning baptism in Romans chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

In regards to Ephesians 2:11-14, believers in Christ have been brought near by the blood of Christ and not by H20.

In Ephesians 5:26, the washing of water is by the Word and not by water baptism here. The word "water" in scripture does not always apply to baptism and here is used as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. We also see this in John 15:3. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (John 3:5)

In regards to Galatians 3:27, in Galatians 3:26 we read - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED. So let's be consistent.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. Just as when a soldier puts on armor he is revealing himself to be a soldier.

One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform "in of itself" does not make one become a soldier, but once one is made a soldier they are then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier. It's the same with putting on a judge's robe. Simply putting on the robe "in of itself" does not make anyone become a "judge," but, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14. If one tries to put on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved through water" as they were in the ark. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

So as you can see, I don't ignore those passages of scripture that you cited, yet I also don't misinterpret them in such a way that contradicts salvation through faith, not works, as you do. Instead of using a flawed method of hermeneutics by distorting these passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based gospel plan that contradicts salvation by grace through faith, not works, I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Salvation by faith + actions which follow = salvation by faith + works any way you slice, dice or sugar coat it. Period. I don't ignore those verses that you cited above, but I also do not misinterpret them in such a way which contradicts salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Works-salvationists try to "get around" the fact that we are saved through faith, not works, by either saying we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works or else they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, which results in basically defining faith "as" works. Such people will say faith "is" baptism. Faith "is" obeying the 10 commandments. Faith "is" keeping the sabbath day. Faith "is" multiple acts of obedience accomplished after one has been saved through faith. etc.. This of course is erroneous.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics*

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Before mentioning baptism in Romans chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:24-28; 4:5-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

In regards to Ephesians 2:11-14, believers in Christ have been brought near by the blood of Christ and not by H20.

In Ephesians 5:26, the washing of water is by the Word and not by water baptism here. The word "water" in scripture does not always apply to baptism and here is used as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. We also see this in John 15:3. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (John 3:5)

In regards to Galatians 3:27, in Galatians 3:26 we read - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED. So let's be consistent.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. Just as when a soldier puts on armor he is revealing himself to be a soldier.

One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform "in of itself" does not make one become a soldier, but once one is made a soldier they are then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier. It's the same with putting on a judge's robe. Simply putting on the robe "in of itself" does not make anyone become a "judge," but, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved through water" as they were in the ark. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

So as you can see, I don't ignore those passages of scripture that you cited, yet I also don't misinterpret them in such a way that contradicts salvation through faith, not works, as you do. Instead of using a flawed method of hermeneutics by distorting these passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based gospel plan that contradicts salvation by grace through faith, not works, I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

Very simply Paul makes it perfectly clear that no one is saved in disobedience and known unrepentant sin *see Hebrews 10:26-31 and James says if we believe and do not obey what Gods' Word says all we have is the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. Something to pray about. We should heed the words of Jesus very carefully "Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21. No one has faith in God's Word if they do not obey what God's Word says. That is the type of faith we are warned about in James 2:16-26.

Take Care