How Many Evenings are in a Day?

[Studyman]

Let me try to be more clear. According to the scripture provided, which of these two evenings composes a full 24 hour day, with the daylight time that is mention in this scripture, the one before daylight, or the one after daylight?

I would say the first two were the end of the Weekly Sabbath, Sundown and the dawning of the new day, the first day of the week, which begins at sundown. Since Jesus raised from the dead on Saturday, just before sundown, when they got to the grave, HE was already gone.

But the 3rd verse has some translation issues for me. Besides the CLV you are using, I could only find two other translations that suggested Jesus Spoke with Mary (Touch me not) on God's Sabbath Day, and then met with His Disciples on the Evening of the same Sabbath day. The Jubilee 2000, and the Wycliffe are the only translations I could find which said the same as the CLV that you are using.

The ASV, BBE, CEB, CEBA, CJB, GSB, DBY, ESU, CNT, GW, HNV, KJV, NKJV, LEB, MSG, NAS, NCV, NIV, NIRV, NLT, NRS, NRSA, RHE, RSV, RSVA, TMB, WBT, WEB, WNT, YLT, and the Geneva Bible, all translate the verse to read "first "Day" of the Week". Tyndale says "Morrow after the Sabbath".

My Favorite Translation, TS2009, had these notes for John 20:19.

"The underlying Greek text is "mia ton sabbaton ", which, when literally translated, means "one of the sabbath/s", but is traditionally rendered as "first day of the week." The term "first day of the week" is literally translated as "proté hemera tis hebdomata " in Greek, but nowhere appears as such in the Second Writings. There is a strong argument that "mia ton sabbaton" should be rendered according to Semitic idiom as "day one of the week".
See Mat 28:1, Luqas 24:1, Yoḥ 20:1, Qor. Aleph 16:2 / Mat_28:1, Luk_24:1, Joh_20:1, 1Co_16:2."

It seems evident that Jesus had already Risen and spoke to Mary on the First Day of the Week. Later in that same day, Jesus appeared to His Disciples in a locked room.

I thought about this a lot several years ago, and have found certain translations which seem to have been in error. I think the CLV, and the Jubilee 2000, and the Wycliffe, which I find as excellent translations, simply translated the verse wrong.

I doesn't seem likely that this verse, in 3 translations out of 32, renders all other accounts of the resurrection as questionable. If it were not for these 3 translations, there would be no confusion.

There is my take Hark, for what it's worth

 

[HARK!]

I would say the first two were the end of the Weekly Sabbath

First two? When would you say that the weekly sabbath ended?

I doesn't seem likely that this verse, in 3 translations out of 32, renders all other accounts of the resurrection as questionable. If it were not for these 3 translations, there would be no confusion.

Arumentum ad populum?

 

[daq]

You'll probably get much more out of the English translation of the Ethiopian text, than you would from what is left of the Aramaic manuscript that you referenced.

The Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q Enoch

Why would I need faulty English translations of an abridged Ethiopian version of the book of the Luminaries, or even those fragments in your link, when I have the calendar right from the scripture? My point in posting the work of Milik was to support what I said about the Ethiopian book of the Luminaries not originally being part of Henok and having been abridged and therefore being incomplete.

However, did you happen to look at the publish credits at the bottom your source? You've already discredited your own linked source: Milik had his hands on those fragments.

 

[HARK!]

Why would I need faulty English translations of an abridged Ethiopian version of the book of the Luminaries, or even those fragments in your link, when I have the calendar right from the scripture? My point in posting the work of Milik was to support what I said about the Ethiopian book of the Luminaries not originally being part of Henok and having been abridged and therefore being incomplete.

I'm confused by your statement. You seem to be saying that the Ethiopian manuscript was added to, but is abridged?

1 Enoch is scripture.

Enoch is the most quoted, or eluded to, book in the Bible; but it's not in the Bible. Enoch is quoted, or eluded to in the B'rit Chadasha over 100 times.

You can find my thread on this subject here: The Book of Enoch

 

[HARK!]

However, did you happen to look at the publish credits at the bottom your source? You've already discredited your own linked source: Milik had his hands on those fragments.

How is my source discredited?

 

[daq]

I'm confused by your statement. You seem to be saying that the Ethiopian manuscript was added to, but is abridged?

1 Enoch is scripture.

Enoch is the most quoted, or eluded to, book in the Bible; but it's not in the Bible. Enoch is quoted, or eluded to in the B'rit Chadasha over 100 times.

You can find my thread on this subject here: The Book of Enoch

How would you understand what I said if you do not believe Milik to be a credible source? Luminaries was added to the Ethiopian version of Henok. Luminaries is the calendar section. Luminaries is abridged in the Ethiopian version of Henok. You do not have the whole calendar or the whole book of the Luminaries in the Ethiopian version. And as what we have from the DSS you can find the little scraps translated in the work of Milik.

 

[HARK!]

How would you understand what I said if you do not believe Milik to be a credible source?

Again, I don't treat biased opinions as facts.

Luminaries was added to the Ethiopian version of Henok.

Do you have proof; or is this an opinion?

Luminaries is the calendar section. Luminaries is abridged in the Ethiopian version of Henok.

Abridged means that it was taken out. Do you have any proof of this?

And as what we have from the DSS you can find the little scraps translated in the work of Milik

I don't know how you could conclude that portions were added to the Ethiopian manuscript, based on the scant fragments found at Betharaba.

 

[daq]

How is my source discredited?

 

[HARK!]

View attachment 313974

So what? How does this discredit my source?

 

[daq]

Do you have proof; or is this an opinion?

Yes, see Milik, already linked.

Abridged means that it was taken out. Do you have any proof of this?

No, by abridged I used the word according to its generally accepted definition.
Abridged at DuckDuckGo

I don't know how you could conclude that portions were added to the Ethiopian manuscript, based on the scant fragments found at Betharaba.

Huh?

 

[daq]

So what? How does this discredit my source?

You say so yourself:

Based on this small sampling; this book is full of misinformation and conjecture.

Józef Tadeusz Milik (Seroczyn, Poland, 24 March 1922 – Paris, 6 January 2006) was a Polish biblical scholar and a Catholic priest, researcher of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) through the deserts of Judea/Jordan, and translator and editor of the Book of Enoch in Aramaic (fragments).[1]

Then he joined Roland de Vaux’s team and helped to discover Cave 3, excavated and unearthed hundreds of fragments from Cave 4, and took part in the discovery and excavations of Caves 5 and 6. He later became one of the most essential participants of the translation and publication team.

Józef Milik - Wikipedia

The team of Cave 4 editors are largely Catholic clerics, centered at the Dominican-sponsored Ecole Biblique et Archéologique Française in what was until 1967 Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem. The editorial team was assembled beginning in 1953 by Père Roland de Vaux, who, according to Baigent and Leigh, exercised “virtually supreme authority” over the scrolls until his death in 1971.

Is the Vatican Suppressing the Dead Sea Scrolls? Hershel Shanks, Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov-Dec 1991.

Who came up with the conjecture that the Essenes were at Betharaba, home of John the Baptist? Whoever it was, I would have to question their scholarship. It was those who were in control of the scrolls who propagated that falsehood; but I haven't researched specifically who initiated that falsehood.

I'm not interested in conjecture built on a Catholic bias. I prefer facts over biased opinion pieces.

Moreover I sure would like to see some evidence that the place now known as Qumran, (Arabic name), was once called Betharaba.

 

[HARK!]

You say so yourself:

I don't have any problems with the pictures of the manuscripts. I have a problem with the opinions.

A picture is worth a thousand opinions.

 

[HARK!]

You say so yourself:



Moreover I sure would like to see some evidence that the place now known as Qumran, (Arabic name), was once called Betharaba.

It was renamed Qumran by Islam.

Madaba Map - Wikipedia

1836 Tanner Maps of Palestine

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6n8...nner2-068__78650.1485637541.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

 

[daq]

I don't have any problems with the pictures of the manuscripts. I have a problem with the opinions.

A picture is worth a thousand opinions.

That is not how I took what you implied in your commentary on J. T. Milik and his Catholic background. You seem to be implying some sort of Catholic conspiracy even as far as the fact that he was heavily involved in the discovery of some of the same fragments he was tasked with editing.

"Then he joined Roland de Vaux’s team and helped to discover Cave 3, excavated and unearthed hundreds of fragments from Cave 4, and took part in the discovery and excavations of Caves 5 and 6. He later became one of the most essential participants of the translation and publication team."

Then you posted a link about the Vatican suppressing the DSS.

 

[HARK!]

That is not how I took what you implied in your commentary on J. T. Milik and his Catholic background. You seem to be implying some sort of Catholic conspiracy even as far as the fact that he was heavily involved in the discovery of some of the same fragments he was tasked with editing.

"Then he joined Roland de Vaux’s team and helped to discover Cave 3, excavated and unearthed hundreds of fragments from Cave 4, and took part in the discovery and excavations of Caves 5 and 6. He later became one of the most essential participants of the translation and publication team."

Then you posted a link about the Vatican suppressing the DSS.

I didn't say there was a conspiracy.

Here is the portion that I quoted:

The team of Cave 4 editors are largely Catholic clerics, centered at the Dominican-sponsored Ecole Biblique et Archéologique Française in what was until 1967 Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem. The editorial team was assembled beginning in 1953 by Père Roland de Vaux, who, according to Baigent and Leigh, exercised “virtually supreme authority” over the scrolls until his death in 1971.

Is the Vatican Suppressing the Dead Sea Scrolls? Hershel Shanks, Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov-Dec 1991.

This is confirmed by numerous sources. I picked the first one that popped up. If you don't trust that source; then maybe you can find a more reliable source to refute what I quoted.

 

[HARK!]

No, by abridged I used the word according to its generally accepted definition.
Abridged at DuckDuckGo

 

[daq]

It was renamed Qumran by Islam.

Madaba Map - Wikipedia

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-6n8...nner2-068__78650.1485637541.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I do see Beth-Arabah on the first map [EDIT: correction, on closer inspection the first map says Bethabara, the same as found in the Textus Receptus version of John 1:28, (KJV, YLT, etc.,), which is not Beth-Arabah but Beth-Abarah, (see 2 Samuel 19:18, "ferry-boat", "ford", or "the crossing", H5679 abarah] but as you see it is along the Yordan and not where Damascus-Qumran is located. In the Torah and Yhoshua one may see that the arabah is the whole region directly surrounding the Yordan river, even from the waters of Dan in the far north. Arabah is a word used to describe the fertile area that is adjacent to the Yordan including the area before the small lake, the Galil, and main section of the Yordan, and Kikkar Yordan, (the circle roundabout where it enters the Salt Sea or Dead Sea). Those maps are guesses when it comes to Beit-Arabah, but the general consensus, (speculative at best), is the area around where it is named on your first map, maybe five to fifteen miles from Damascus-Qumran, along the Yordan.

The Tzaddokim called their Community Damascus.

FRAGMENTS OF A ZADOKITE WORK
8 1 And during the period of the destruction of the land there arose those who removed the landmark 2 and led Israel astray. And the land became desolate because they spake rebellion against the commandments of God through Moses [and also through His holy anointed one], and they prophesied a lie to turn away Israel from God.
3 But God remembered the covenant with the forefathers: And He raised up from Aaron men of understanding. And from Israel wise men
4 And He made them to hearken, And they digged the well
5 ‘A well the princes digged, The nobles of the people delved it By the order of the Lawgiver.’
6 The well is the Law, and they who digged it are the penitents of Israel who went forth out of the land of Judah and sojourned in the land of Damascus, all of whom God called princes.
7, 8 For they sought Him and His glory was not turned back in the mouth of one (of them). And the Lawgiver is he who studies the Law, in regard to whom Isaiah said,’ He bringeth forth an instrument for his work.’ And the nobles of the people are those who came to dig the well by the precepts in the which the Lawgiver ordained that they should walk throughout the full period of the wickedness.
10 And save them they shall get nothing until there arises the Teacher of Righteousness in the end of the days.
11 And none who have entered into the covenant shall enter into the Sanctuary to kindle His altar but they shall shut the doors concerning whom God said, ‘0 that there was one among you to shut the doors, So that ye might not vainly kindle the tire upon My altar,’
12 Unless they observe to do according to the true meaning of the Law until the period of the wickedness, and to sever themselves from the children of the pit, and to hold aloof from the polluted wealth of wickedness under a vow and a curse, and from the wealth of the Sanctuary:
13And in respect to robbing the pool of His people, So that widows may be their spoil. And they may murder the fatherless:
14 And to make a difference between the clean and the unclean and to make men discern between, the holy and the profane:
15 And to observe the Sabbath according to its true meaning and the feasts and the day of the Fast according to the utterances of them who entered into the New Covenant in the land of Damascus:

FRAGMENTS OF A ZADOKITE WORK
9 4 When the two houses of Israel separated, [Ephraim departed from Judah, and] all who proved faithless were delivered to the sword, and those who held fast escaped into the land of the North.
5 As He said, ‘And I will cause to go into captivity Siccuth your King and Chiun your images,
6 (the star of your god which ye made for yourselves) beyond Damascus.’ The books of the Law are the tabernacle of the King, as He said, ‘And I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is 7 fallen.’ The King is the congregation and Chiun the images are the books of the Prophets, whose 8 words Israel has despised. And the Star is he who studied the Law, who came to Damascus, as it is written, ‘There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, and a sceptre shall rise out of Israel.’ The 9 scepter is the prince of all the congregation.

This changes the entire complexion of the entire corpus of the apostolic writings if you know what to look for and where to look: Acts 7:42-43 quoting Amos 5:25-27, (Babylon = Damascus), 1 Peter 5:13, Acts 9:1-18 and companion passages, (the Chief Priest did not have authority to bind in Damascus Syria).

 

[daq]

View attachment 313988

Yeah, and that is what I meant: the book of the Luminaries in Ethiopic 1Enoch has been abridged, (shortened).

 

[HARK!]

I do see Beth-Arabah on the first map but as you see it is along the Yordan and not where Damascus-Qumran is located.

Look for it on the second map. That region of the Wilderness was called Betharaba. I have lots more evidence.

Here's another little piece:

(CLV) Jos 15:61
In the wilderness: Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah,

(CLV) Jos 15:62
Nibshan, the City of Salt, and En-gedi: six cities and their hamlets.

Joshua starts in the north, and works his way down the coast.

https://picryl.com/media/judah-1852...-land-geographicus-palestine-5ad797?zoom=true

1852 Philip Map of Palestine.

 

[HARK!]

Yeah, and that is what I meant: the book of the Luminaries in Ethiopic 1Enoch has been abridged, (shortened).

So let's see the full text and your source; and tell me how it has any bearing on the verses that I referenced.