How Many Evenings are in a Day?

[HARK!]

Hi look up the Jewish calendar and you will see that besides having the weekly Sabbath some of the feast days are also Sabbaths. So you can have multiple days of Sabbath in a row. I have not looked into this in a long time but Passover was a Sabbath and the next day is the feast of unleavened bread and the resurrection day I believe is the feast of 1st fruits. Anyways the explanation is along these lines and I do not have time to research it again.

I'm Messianic. I've been honoring the Moedim for many years. To my understanding, the 1st day of Hag Matzot is a shabbat.

 

[HARK!]

Don't think it is geared to 24-hours .... rather .... sundown/sunset

Using Genesis it would be evening comes before daylight.

"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night: and the evening and the morning were the first day."

The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. One of its' purposes is to be a sign.

 

[daq]

The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. One of its' purposes is to be a sign.

The sun is indeed for a sign as even an obelisk or even a vertical stick can tell you the day of the astronomical equinox, the very day, by shadow plotting with a very simple horizontal sundial because the obelisk or vertical stick is the gnomon. There is no way the ancients didn't know this, seeing that there are ancient obelisks all over Egypt, and Mosheh was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. However that doesn't necessarily mean that the fourth day of the week is the correct day to start the year.

 

[HARK!]

However that doesn't necessarily mean that the fourth day of the week is the correct day to start the year.

Each season started on the 4th day of the week (Wednesday), every year.[108]

Ben-Dov, Head of All Years, pp. 16–17

Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia

Like I said, I'm just beginning to dig into this subject; and I haven't personally reviewed the corresponding manuscripts; but Jonathan Ben-Dov is a highly reliable source.

What evidence do you have that would bring this reckoning into question?

 

[daq]

What evidence do you have that would bring this reckoning into question?

Well, for starters, the fact that the phrase Shabbat shabbaton, (those two words used together), is a phrase only used for three things: the seventh yom Shabbat, the Shabbat for the land, and Yom HaKippurim. Therefore the fact that this phrase is used for Yom HaKippurim surely means that Yom HaKippurim is to be a seventh yom Shabbat on the calendar.

If Yom HaKippurim is commanded to always be a seventh yom Shabbat then this is not something that is possible on a lunar or lunisolar calendar. It also means it is not possible with the Damascus, (Qumran), calendar because of the placement of the four inter-calendar days and the fact that their calendar commenced with the fourth day of the week.

I posted this to someone else in your older thread but did not explain it because of his claims, (if his claims were true he would have immediately known about and understood what I was really getting at).

Exodus 16:23, shabbaton shabbat kodesh
Exodus 31:15, shabbat shabbaton kodesh
Exodus 35:2, kodesh shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 16:31, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:3, shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 23:32 shabbat shabbaton
Leviticus 25:4 shabbat shabbaton (for the land)

The reality is written, and is not going to change: Yom HaKippurim is a weekly Shabbat shabbaton, regardless of what the sages, modern Jewry, self-proclaimed scholars, or anyone else says. This simple little fact invalidates most calendars.

A Shabbat shabbaton is always a seventh yom Shabbat: the only case where it is not is in regards to the Shabbat for the land, but even there it is of the same pattern.

 

[HARK!]

A Shabbat shabbaton is always a seventh yom Shabbat: the only case where it is not is in regards to the Shabbat for the land, but even there it is of the same pattern.

https://archive.org/details/TheAncientHebrewLexiconOfTheBible/page/n451/mode/2up

The fact that these words are not used exclusively in conjunction with the 7th day Shabbat, means that they are not exclusive to the 7th day Shabbat.

 

[daq]

View attachment 313866

https://pluto.huji.ac.il/~mselio/Ancient-Jewish.pdf

I like what she says toward the end of the chapter, that they knew the length of the year, but that the decision to observe a year of 364 days was based on principle. There should be no doubt that they knew the length of the year, however, we simply don't know whether or not they had a leap year. As you have also said, absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence, for it may well be that they did have a leap year intercalation, but that the evidence in writing simply didn't survive, either that or we have not found it yet.

I've been thinking about making a thread on sundials, but for now, here is one from the sundial registry that essentially has an obelisk for a gnomon. The critical thing about this is that it shows by imperical undeniable evidence that the days of the equinoxes are known by this type of horizontal sundail from as far back as ancient Egypt well before the time of Mosheh. The straight center line running through the hour markings on the pavement is the day of the equinox, no matter which one, for the shadow of the point of the gnomon points out a nearly perfect straight line running due east, due west, on every astronomical equinox, and especially when astronomical equinox occurs in the morning.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page.
Sundial Registry

 

[daq]

View attachment 313939

View attachment 313940

The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon Of The Bible : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The fact that these words are not used exclusively in conjunction with the 7th day Shabbat, means that they are not exclusive to the 7th day Shabbat.

I specified the two words being used together in conjunction as a phrase. Those places I cited are the only places in the Torah where that phrase exists.

It is also true that a mikra kodesh can be called a shabbaton but that just proves that the word by itself only pertains to a rest similar or like unto the Shabbat and not necessarily a seventh yom Shabbat.

For example shabbaton is used in Leviticus 23:39 for the first day of Sukkot, (the 15th), and for the eighth day of Sukkot, but that simply means they are to be a rest day, like the Shabbat, not that they are necessarily both a seventh yom Shabbat.

Thus we have in that passage Yom HaKippurim, which is called a Shabbat shabbaton, and the first and eighth days of Sukkot, which are merely called shabbaton.

 

[HARK!]

I like what she says toward the end of the chapter, that they knew the length of the year, but that the decision to observe a year of 364 days was based on principle. There should be no doubt that they knew the length of the year, however, we simply don't know whether or not they had a leap year. As you have also said, absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence, for it may well be that they did have a leap year intercalation, but that the evidence in writing simply didn't survive, either that or we have not found it yet.

There can't be a leap year. The next Equinox would signal the start of the coming year.

 

[HARK!]

I've been thinking about making a thread on sundials, but for now, here is one from the sundial registry that essentially has an obelisk for a gnomon. The critical thing about this is that it shows by imperical undeniable evidence that the days of the equinoxes are known by this type of horizontal sundail from as far back as ancient Egypt well before the time of Mosheh. The straight center line running through the hour markings on the pavement is the day of the equinox, no matter which one, for the shadow of the point of the gnomon points out a nearly perfect straight line running due east, due west, on every astronomical equinox, and especially when astronomical equinox occurs in the morning.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page.
Sundial Registry

Enoch knew how to read the seasons before Egypt.

Enoch 75:

1
And the leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not
2
reckoned in the reckoning of the year. And owing to them men go wrong therein, for those luminaries truly render service on the world-stations, one in the first portal, one in the third portal of the heaven, one in the fourth portal, and one in the sixth portal, and the exactness of the year is
3
accomplished through its separate three hundred and sixty-four stations. For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory hath set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, i.e. the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots

Enoch 82:

15
In the beginning of the year Melkejâl rises first and rules, who is named Tam'âinî and sun, and
16
all the days of his dominion whilst he bears rule are ninety-one days. And these are the signs of the days which are to be seen on earth in the days of his dominion: sweat, and heat, and calms; and all the trees bear fruit, and leaves are produced on all the trees, and the harvest of wheat,

 

[daq]

Enoch knew how to read the seasons before Egypt.

Enoch 75:

1
And the leaders of the heads of the thousands, who are placed over the whole creation and over all the stars, have also to do with the four intercalary days, being inseparable from their office, according to the reckoning of the year, and these render service on the four days which are not
2
reckoned in the reckoning of the year. And owing to them men go wrong therein, for those luminaries truly render service on the world-stations, one in the first portal, one in the third portal of the heaven, one in the fourth portal, and one in the sixth portal, and the exactness of the year is
3
accomplished through its separate three hundred and sixty-four stations. For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory hath set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, i.e. the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots

Enoch 82:

15
In the beginning of the year Melkejâl rises first and rules, who is named Tam'âinî and sun, and
16
all the days of his dominion whilst he bears rule are ninety-one days. And these are the signs of the days which are to be seen on earth in the days of his dominion: sweat, and heat, and calms; and all the trees bear fruit, and leaves are produced on all the trees, and the harvest of wheat,

I do not believe the Book of the Luminaries was original to Sefer Henok. Neither apparently did those at Damascus-Qumran because it was never found as part of Sefer Henok but always its own separate scroll. An abridged version of Luminaries was apparently added to Henok in the Ethiopic version but that was not the case at Damascus-Qumran.

MILIK - The Book of Enoch Aramaic Fragments Qumran Cave 4 : Jozef T. Milik : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[daq]

There can't be a leap year. The next Equinox would signal the start of the coming year.

As already shown, in a different thread, the leap year is expounded in the Torah.

 

[HARK!]

I do not believe the Book of the Luminaries was original to Sefer Henok. Neither apparently did those at Damascus-Qumran because it was never found as part of Sefer Henok but always its own separate scroll. An abridged version of Luminaries was apparently added to Henok in the Ethiopic version but that was not the case at Damascus-Qumran.

MILIK - The Book of Enoch Aramaic Fragments Qumran Cave 4 : Jozef T. Milik : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

This looks like a great read. I've saved it to my library; but at 487 pages, I'll have to get back to you on this.

We know that it was accepted as early as the fourth century:

File:Beit Alpha.jpg - Wikipedia

Hammat Tiberias - Wikipedia

However I suppose that it's possible that this was a result of syncretism.

 

[HARK!]

As already shown, in a different thread, the leap year is expounded in the Torah.

I don't know if I saw that post. You're welcome to expound on it here.

 

[daq]

This looks like a great read. I've saved it to my library; but at 487 pages, I'll have to get back to you on this.

We know that it was accepted as early as the fourth century:

File:Beit Alpha.jpg - Wikipedia

View attachment 313943

Hammat Tiberias - Wikipedia

However I suppose that it's possible that this was a result of syncretism.

There is also the calendar change of 701 BC, and it was important enough to be recorded three times in the scripture, (2 Kings 20:1-11, 2 Chronicles 32:24, Isaiah 38:1-8).

If the sundial of Ahaz marked the sacred calendar day then it marked the half hour as well as the hour. Ten steps would therefore be five hours. The length of the solar year at 365.24219 is 365 days and about 5.8126 hours. The shadow does not go back on the sundial without a catastrophic or semi-catastrophic event such as a small pole shift, (not magnetic pole shift but a temporary geographic shift or strong wobble).

The length of the year surely changed at this time. Dr. Chuck Missler even did a piece on this but because he viewed the flood account as signifying a year of 360 days, (the so-called "prophetic year"), he proposed that the year changed from 360 to 365.2422 in 701 BC. He however had to ignore the Egyptian calendar to come to such a conclusion: for the Egyptians knew the length of the year as 365 days, as said before, long before the time of Mosheh. There was indeed a great calendar change around that time, for something surely did happen, and it is mentioned three times in the scripture.

The year likely changed from 365 days exactly, (the same number as that of the years given to Henok in Genesis 5:23), to 365.24219 days. After our planet settled into its new course, the overall change amounted to almost six hours, (about 5.8126 hours), nearly the same amount which would be accounted for in the time of ten steps on a sundial, one which marks both the hour and the half hour for the commencement of the hours of prayer, (which commence at the half-hour).

The Long Night of Sennacherib: Mars’ Near Pass-by? – Dr. Chuck Missler – Koinonia House

Therefore, either way, whether you say the year was 364 days in the beginning, or that it is supposed to be 364 days according to the Torah: it is not the same after 701 BC even according to the scripture, even including the Prophet Yeshayah.

However, in my understanding of the Torah calendar, this 701 BC calendar change doesn't matter except that it changed the leap cycle to a more frequent period, essentially alternating between five and six years for each leap year, as apposed to the original leap cycle of every seventh year in the time of Mosheh and the giving and writing of the Torah, (if the year was exactly 365 days the leap week would be added every seventh year because on a 364 day calendar you would lose exactly one day every year).

Thus the only thing that changes on my calendar after 701 BC is the frequency of the addition of a leap week to keep the calendar aligned with the solar year. It's pretty simple once it is understood: the vernal equinox drifts through the week days, getting closer to 1 Abib every year. When the equinox reaches 1 Abib it is a leap year so that 1 Abib always comes either on the equinox or up to seven days after the equinox. This is essentially the same rule used to keep the lunisolar calendar in sync, (1 Abib should not come before the vernal equinox because the Pesach might come too soon).

 

[HARK!]

MILIK - The Book of Enoch Aramaic Fragments Qumran Cave 4 : Jozef T. Milik : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I jumped to this section, from the Table of Contents. I'm already beginning to see some problems with this book.

"It was only the Essenes"

The Essenes were not at Betharaba. They were in Ein Gedi.

He's calling the rightful Zadok Priesthood, Gnostics. This is egregiously libelous IMO.

"Seems to me"

Conjecture.

"highly likely"

Conjecture

"May have have been attributed"

More conjecture.

 

[daq]

I jumped to this section, from the Table of Contents. I'm already beginning to see some problems with this book.

View attachment 313952

"It was only the Essenes"

The Essenes were not at Betharaba. They were in Ein Gedi.

"Seems to me"

Conjecture.

"highly likely"

Conjecture

"May have have been attributed"

More conjecture.

As always there is a necessity for at least some conjecture when dealing with broken fragments and pieces of what was once a complete scroll. However as to what is contained in those fragments you will not find a more comprehensive and accurate reading than this highly important work by J. T. Milik.

Howbeit the texts themselves reveal that the DSS version of Luminaries was much larger than what is now found in the Ethiopic version. If you skip to the Astronomical Book, on page 273 of the work, (not the PDF page number but the actual page number of the book itself), there is an introduction for the Astronomical texts, (Sefer of the Luminaries), and a short section on the synchronistic calendar. The very reason he addresses those fragments separately is because they were not part of Sefer Henok.

 

[HARK!]

As always there is a necessity for at least some conjecture when dealing with broken fragments and pieces of what was once a complete scroll. However as to what is contained in those fragments you will not find a more comprehensive and accurate reading than this highly important work by J. T. Milik.

Based on this small sampling; this book is full of misinformation and conjecture.

Józef Tadeusz Milik (Seroczyn, Poland, 24 March 1922 – Paris, 6 January 2006) was a Polish biblical scholar and a Catholic priest, researcher of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) through the deserts of Judea/Jordan, and translator and editor of the Book of Enoch in Aramaic (fragments).[1]

Then he joined Roland de Vaux’s team and helped to discover Cave 3, excavated and unearthed hundreds of fragments from Cave 4, and took part in the discovery and excavations of Caves 5 and 6. He later became one of the most essential participants of the translation and publication team.

Józef Milik - Wikipedia

The team of Cave 4 editors are largely Catholic clerics, centered at the Dominican-sponsored Ecole Biblique et Archéologique Française in what was until 1967 Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem. The editorial team was assembled beginning in 1953 by Père Roland de Vaux, who, according to Baigent and Leigh, exercised “virtually supreme authority” over the scrolls until his death in 1971.

Is the Vatican Suppressing the Dead Sea Scrolls? Hershel Shanks, Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov-Dec 1991.

Who came up with the conjecture that the Essenes were at Betharaba, home of John the Baptist? Whoever it was, I would have to question their scholarship. It was those who were in control of the scrolls who propagated that falsehood; but I haven't researched specifically who initiated that falsehood.

I'm not interested in conjecture built on a Catholic bias. I prefer facts over biased opinion pieces.

 

[daq]

Based on this small sampling; this book is full of misinformation and conjecture.

Józef Tadeusz Milik (Seroczyn, Poland, 24 March 1922 – Paris, 6 January 2006) was a Polish biblical scholar and a Catholic priest, researcher of the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) through the deserts of Judea/Jordan, and translator and editor of the Book of Enoch in Aramaic (fragments).[1]

Then he joined Roland de Vaux’s team and helped to discover Cave 3, excavated and unearthed hundreds of fragments from Cave 4, and took part in the discovery and excavations of Caves 5 and 6. He later became one of the most essential participants of the translation and publication team.

Józef Milik - Wikipedia

The team of Cave 4 editors are largely Catholic clerics, centered at the Dominican-sponsored Ecole Biblique et Archéologique Française in what was until 1967 Jordanian-controlled East Jerusalem. The editorial team was assembled beginning in 1953 by Père Roland de Vaux, who, according to Baigent and Leigh, exercised “virtually supreme authority” over the scrolls until his death in 1971.

Is the Vatican Suppressing the Dead Sea Scrolls? Hershel Shanks, Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov-Dec 1991.

Who came up with the conjecture that the Essenes were at Betharaba, home of John the Baptist? Whoever it was, I would have to question their scholarship. It was those who were in control of the scrolls who propagated that falsehood; but I haven't researched specifically who initiated that falsehood.

I'm not interested in conjecture built on a Catholic bias. I prefer facts over biased opinion pieces.

Well, I guess you are left with Ethiopian 1Enoch and the English translations thereof, (unless you can read Ge'ez). Good luck with that.

 

[HARK!]

Well, I guess you are left with Ethiopian 1Enoch and the English translations thereof, (unless you can read Ge'ez). Good luck with that.

You'll probably get much more out of the English translation of the Ethiopian text, than you would from what is left of the Aramaic manuscript that you referenced.

The Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q Enoch