Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Shrewd Manager]

I was hesitant about bring up the word again. Pavlov warned me.

The bell rings and out come Team Hell with their Kolasinikovs. 'Burn in Hell infidels!' rattatat tat.

 

[Hmm]

Kolasinikovs

Nice one! I wish they would use bullet points to make their posts more concise.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nice one! I wish they would use bullet points to make their posts more concise.

That might make a round, but all the scriptural support for eternal torment wouldn't fill a magazine.

 

[Saint Steven]

Fringe minority?

UR is not a new "invention".
A leading theology in the early church. At least four of the six theological schools were Universalist.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Fervent]

Fringe minority? I invite you to read through this detailed investigation into 'kolasin'.
The Meaning of Kolasin

Excerpt as follows:

Thus far we have seen that numerous fluent writers of Greek have explicitly defined kolasin as corrective punishment and used it in such a way that demonstrates this to be its clear meaning. These sources include secular writers such as Plato, Aristotle, Theophrastus, and Aulus Gellius, as well as Christian sources like Clement of Alexandria, Methodius and Epiphanius, spanning a roughly 800-year period from Plato (born in 428 B.C.) to Epiphanius (died in 403 A.D.). It is also noteworthy that these writings occurred both before Christ and after Christ, and that some of them were written near to the time of the composition of the Gospels.

The issue is the entire phrase, and it's quite easy to see that the ones preferring the rendering Hmm gave is a fringe minority considering the vast majority of translations render it along the lines of eternal punishment. Furthermore, a basic look at the Greek grammar denies the translation offered by Hmm because it reverses the order of the parts of speech. Aionios describes kolasis not the other way around so whatever translation we end up with must have "aionios" providing a character for the punishment.

 

[Fervent]

UR is not a new "invention".
A leading theology in the early church. At least four of the six theological schools were Universalist.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Considering the claim "4 of the 6" comes from a single source that makes no mention of its sources it can be discarded out of hand. There is only one nearly undisputed universalist in Christian theological history in Origen, and he was anathematized for teaching so.

 

[rjs330]

God was in Christ reconciling the WHOLE WORLD to Him. ALL of creation. Not just some elite remnant of snobbish holier-than-thou's (thank God). Guaranteeing the salvation of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. Why trample the glory underfoot.

And if God has done it, it's only a matter of time before each and every creature becomes reconciled to God, ie believes and is sanctified. That's what these other verses you've cited are about, sanctification. I'm not sure how to get this through to you, we don't save ourselves.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (Col 1:16)

Isn't it a form of blasphemy to suggest the creature's will overcomes the Creator's? Or that God is an iconoclast, smashing His own created images?

No it's not, because it was not the will of the creator to have sin and rebellion in the first place. Was it the will of God that Lucifer rebel against God and take a bunch of angels with him? Was it the will of God that Adam and Eve sin in the garden this dooming mankind to a sinful and rebellious existence?

God could absolutely have created the Angels And man without a will to be able to make choices, good or bad. But he didn't. He chose to create man and the angels to with the ability to make a choice.

You are absolutely correct that sanctification is God's work in us, growing us to be more like Christ. But it's only for those that believe. The unbeliever does not have the spirit of God and so is not in the process of sanctification. Only those that are born again have that. And not everyone is born again. Not everyone chooses to be so. Not everyone accepts his gift of salvation. There are still those that rebel against God and Christ and choose to live a life without it him, trusting in their own works to save themselves. It is the ultimate rejection of Christ.

Those verses you quoted have nothing to do with everyone being saved whether they believe or not.

I don't have any clue how Jesus can be more clear to you.

"That whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

"You must be born again."

How can he be more clear as to the requirement of accepting salvation?

 

[rjs330]

Good point about the Greek, I hope you are wright but I have answered it before. Are thousands of Greek scholars through thousands of years under the oversight of God really that ignorant?
Drowning a vast number of people over a period of forty days does not involve some kayos, injury and torture? Slaughtering a city of people does not involve some torture? Dying of some incurable disease or just old age does not involve some torture?

Don't buy the ainios, ainion argument from the UR folks.

I am a Bible scholar with a degree in Bible literature including Greek studies. I could go into great detail as to a study on this word, but I won't unless asked.

Suffice it to say the UR folks are correct in stating the word has a literal translation of "age". However the word is not defined simply as "age". But it does not actually mean a defined period of time. An age could be a period of time, or it could be the last age that never ends. It could be a period of years or reference an eternal space such as the age of God. It is one of those Greek words that is actually defined by how it is used.

For example this word is used to in Romans 16.

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: - Romans 16:25-26 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16:25-26 - American Standard Version

This is a temporal or time listing of the word. An age.

But then it is used for something this IS eternal or forever.

Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen. - 1 Timothy 6:12-16 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 6:12-16 - American Standard Version

Honor and power eternal certainly would not be a limited amount of time. Is Jesus Christ power and honor limited to a certain period of time? Of course not.

Context helps us see what this word means in the concept of time. It is not limited time. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. A last example of this is.

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. Amen. - Romans 16:25-27 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16:25-27 - American Standard Version

The word is used to describe the eternality of God.

The word is used to describe our life after accepting Christ as eternal life. We won't be saved only for a certain period of time. It's forever.

The problem with UR doctrine is that it refuses to accept eternal damnation therefore they will not accept that ainion can mean forever. When clearly in scripture it does.

By the way, it is not the only Greek word that is like this. The meaning of the Ancient Greek words are not always one definition, but have broader definitions depending on what they are talking about.

It's like our word love. Love is often defined in context. Depending on how we are using it. I use the word love to describe my feelings for summer or a good breakfast. I use the word love for my kids, friends and wife. But it's not the same thing. You know what kind of love I am talking about by context.

That is aionion(s)

 

[rjs330]

So God created a mess so we could learn to have compassion?

I think the better way of looking at this was God created a world that was perfect, but gave us permission to mess it up if we wanted to. And apparently we did and still do.

 

[rjs330]

Even God can't do everything - He can't commit suicide for example or lie or, I might add, torture or torment. Sorry about the multiple posts, I should have combined them into one.

But God can commit murder, genocide and infanticide.

 

[Fervent]

Don't buy the ainios, ainion argument from the UR folks.

I am a Bible scholar with a degree in Bible literature including Greek studies. I could go into great detail as to a study on this word, but I won't unless asked.

Suffice it to say the UR folks are correct in stating the word has a literal translation of "age". However the word is not defined simply as "age". But it does not actually mean a defined period of time. An age could be a period of time, or it could be the last age that never ends. It could be a period of years or reference an eternal space such as the age of God. It is one of those Greek words that is actually defined by how it is used.

For example this word is used to in Romans 16.

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: - Romans 16:25-26 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16:25-26 - American Standard Version

This is a temporal or time listing of the word. An age.

But then it is used for something this IS eternal or forever.

Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen. - 1 Timothy 6:12-16 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 6:12-16 - American Standard Version

Honor and power eternal certainly would not be a limited amount of time. Is Jesus Christ power and honor limited to a certain period of time? Of course not.

Context helps us see what this word means in the concept of time. It is not limited time. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. A last example of this is.

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. Amen. - Romans 16:25-27 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 16:25-27 - American Standard Version

The word is used to describe the eternality of God.

The word is used to describe our life after accepting Christ as eternal life. We won't be saved only for a certain period of time. It's forever.

The problem with UR doctrine is that it refuses to accept eternal damnation therefore they will not accept that ainion can mean forever. When clearly in scripture it does.

By the way, it is not the only Greek word that is like this. The meaning of the Ancient Greek words are not always one definition, but have broader definitions depending on what they are talking about.

It's like our word love. Love is often defined in context. Depending on how we are using it. I use the word love to describe my feelings for summer or a good breakfast. I use the word love for my kids, friends and wife. But it's not the same thing. You know what kind of love I am talking about by context.

That is aionion(s)

As far as that question goes, the only way to render the grammar consistently and deny the eternality of the punishment is to deny that aionios zoe is forever. After all, we can reasonably render it "life for the age" and "punishment for the age" or something similar but there is no duration specified but they are offered as like equivalents. So if one is finite, so is the other. Of course UR proponents are unlikely to deny eternal life so they engage in special pleading in which aionios means eternal for life but not punishment all within the same sentence.

 

[misput]

I think the better way of looking at this was God created a world that was perfect, but gave us permission to mess it up if we wanted to. And apparently we did and still do.

I agree, that is why I ended my statement with a question mark.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The issue is the entire phrase, and it's quite easy to see that the ones preferring the rendering Hmm gave is a fringe minority considering the vast majority of translations render it along the lines of eternal punishment. Furthermore, a basic look at the Greek grammar denies the translation offered by Hmm because it reverses the order of the parts of speech. Aionios describes kolasis not the other way around so whatever translation we end up with must have "aionios" providing a character for the punishment.

The noun is kolasis, aionios is an indefinite, but limited timeframe, or figuratively 'the next world'. Where we get the word 'eon'.

So there's nothing in aionios that would turn kolasis into timoria.

Why you guys think that divine punishment is an end in itself beats me. It conveys an image of God as like the sadistic Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ flailing and scourging away to their hearts' content. No, Jesus doesn't go through hell and death just so God can smite the lost forever. What an appallingly fallen vision of deity.

 

[Fervent]

The noun is kolasis, aionios is an indefinite, but limited timeframe, or figuratively 'the next world'. Where we get the word 'eon'.

So there's nothing in aionios that would turn kolasis into timoria.

Why you guys think that divine punishment is an end in itself beats me. It conveys an image of God as like the sadistic Roman soldiers in Passion of the Christ flailing and scourging away to their hearts' content. No, Jesus doesn't go through hell and death just so God can smite the lost forever. What an appallingly fallen vision of deity.

No one is claiming kolasis for timoria, but your rendering of aionios is false. The principal difference between timoria and kolasis is that timoria is to serve a need in the one inflicting the punishment, which no one is proposing. But as I said in another post, aionios kolasis is the same duration as aionios zoe so if the punishment of the goats ends so does the eternal life the sheep go to.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No it's not, because it was not the will of the creator to have sin and rebellion in the first place. Was it the will of God that Lucifer rebel against God and take a bunch of angels with him? Was it the will of God that Adam and Eve sin in the garden this dooming mankind to a sinful and rebellious existence?

Not His will, perhaps, but it's pretty hard to save those who don't need it. So the absolute necessity of salvation was in God's plan from the outset. As all things proceed from Him, so to Him shall all return.

God could absolutely have created the Angels And man without a will to be able to make choices, good or bad. But he didn't. He chose to create man and the angels to with the ability to make a choice.

Foreknowing that man isn't up to it without Christ.

You are absolutely correct that sanctification is God's work in us, growing us to be more like Christ. But it's only for those that believe. The unbeliever does not have the spirit of God and so is not in the process of sanctification. Only those that are born again have that. And not everyone is born again. Not everyone chooses to be so.

Ok, but you can't choose to be born again. It's an act of divine grace, not personal will.

There are still those that rebel against God and Christ and choose to live a life without it him, trusting in their own works to save themselves. It is the ultimate rejection of Christ.

It is generally by being robbed, deceived and lured away that man rejects God. The world has an entirely false conception of God, it sees Him as a hanging judge who sends ppl to their doom for not 'believing in Him'. Of course anyone with a conscience naturally recoils from this nasty artifice on a moral and principled basis. Problem is, they're rejecting a strawman false idol - so who should burn in hell for that?

Those verses you quoted have nothing to do with everyone being saved whether they believe or not.

Here we go again. Idk if you're just being difficile, or have am actual comprehension problem. UR STIPULATES THAT ALL WILL BELIEVE, whether is this life or in the world to come. All will be resurrected, and those judged will be purified (born again) and need to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb (sanctified) in order to be set right/ restored to God's image.

I don't have any clue how Jesus can be more clear to you.

"That whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

"You must be born again."

How can he be more clear as to the requirement of accepting salvation?

Again, you can't rebirth yourself. Being born of your mother or being born again of the Spirit is not a personal choice or an act of human will.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No one is claiming kolasis for timoria, but your rendering of aionios is false. The principal difference between timoria and kolasis is that timoria is to serve a need in the one inflicting the punishment, which no one is proposing. But as I said in another post, aionios kolasis is the same duration as aionios zoe so if the punishment of the goats ends so does the eternal life the sheep go to.

There is no duration in eternity. The sense in Mat 25:46 is to 'wake up to a world of pain or a world of life'. You can't seriously interpret passages like Matthew 5:22 as stepping up the penalty for 'Thou fool' from a maximum '39 lashes' to 'eternity in boiling oil' for a single count of 'Raca!'. Note Acts 4 for instance where the Sanhedrin Jews want to correctively punish Peter and John.

 

[Saint Steven]

The noun is kolasis, aionios is an indefinite, but limited timeframe, or figuratively 'the next world'. Where we get the word 'eon'.

So there's nothing in aionios that would turn kolasis into timoria.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Saint Steven]

Why you guys think that divine punishment is an end in itself beats me.

A result of brainwashing from our earliest age. Any child raised in the church understands the concept and believes it readily. But it puts an indelible blemish on the gospel message. (fear-based)

Accept the free gift of eternal life. Or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.

This amounts to spiritual extortion.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

A result of brainwashing from our earliest age. Any child raised in the church understands the concept and believes it readily. But it puts an indelible blemish on the gospel message. (fear-based)

That's what it is, brainwashing with satanic doctrine. It's the theology of the flesh, self-willed salvation, as opposed to surrender in the spirit. ECT and the other one are really Adamic theology, pagan or Jewish theology at best, because they implicitly posit Adam's victory over Christ.

Accept the free gift of eternal life. Or if you prefer, you will be incinerated.

This amounts to spiritual extortion.

Spiritual extortion, gaslighting, guilt-tripping and general psychological manipulation, this garbled idea that YOU are born a sinner, YOU killed Jesus Christ, YOU deserve to die and suffer forever, because YOU deny God after His only begotten son paid the ultimate price for YOU...but WE have the solution, a way out: only believe (and give generously). Yikes, what a travesty.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

That's an interesting one, at first I thought you might have highlighted the wrong word, and that aion was 'world', but I see it is correct - world here is kosmou/ cosmos. This absolutely shows how variable the use of aionion is and how unsafe it is to build a doctrine of eternity upon.

One of my faves you might consider adding to your list is Galatians 1:4-5, which the KJV renders thus:

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [aionos], according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever [aionas] and ever [aionon]. Amen.