Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[misput]

What I am hearing is God made a mess and then cleaned up the mess. That's the story of my life. It's called taking out the trash. On second thought, what's left over is usually good stuff ; )

 

[misput]

"seeming" is the operative word. I'm not a Bible scholar but all the "contradictions" I've come across have been simple translation errors from the ancient Greek. Jesus said "kolasis anonios" which means something like "corrective punishment for a time limited duration" but it's translated in most English Bibles, but by no means all, as "eternal punishment'". If you bear that in mind every time you see "eternal punishment, that's one seeming contradiction dealt with. I'm sure there's similar explanations for all the others, as you suggest, but that's the big one I think.



I agree, we don't know the answers to big questions like that. But the question of whether God will ever torture anyone is not a big question. It's a baby question and the answer is No.

Good point about the Greek, I hope you are wright but I have answered it before. Are thousands of Greek scholars through thousands of years under the oversight of God really that ignorant?
Drowning a vast number of people over a period of forty days does not involve some kayos, injury and torture? Slaughtering a city of people does not involve some torture? Dying of some incurable disease or just old age does not involve some torture?

 

[misput]

For purposes of Salvation (the aleph and omega), why else? And if all are saved, divine glory is perfected. Even the hound of heaven has his performance targets.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope. (Rom 8:20)

So why not strive to be perfect even as God is perfect, and dare to hope larger!

Why create a mess first? Was He not able to create a perfect world that would remain perfect to start with?

 

[Hmm]

Are thousands of Greek scholars through thousands of years under the oversight of God really that ignorant?

It's not the error of Greek scholar's surely but of English (or Latin) translators.

 

[Hmm]

Dying of some incurable disease or just old age does not involve some torture?

Yes but this goes back to the BIG question you asked about why there is suffering in this life. This is something that is real and which has been thought about throughout history. That's a totally different type of question to the BABY question of whether God would ever eternally torture someone which is a relatively recent postulate (possibly invented but at least popularised by Augustine) and which can be easily answered with a No.

 

[Hmm]

Why create a mess first? Was He not able to create a perfect world that would remain perfect to start with?

Just a thought but could even God have created people like us in a world that was different than this world? Let's suppose He created a world where there were no accidents or illnesses. I'm sure He could he if He had wanted to but would we be the same type of creatures with compassion for the sick that we are now?

Even God can't do everything - He can't commit suicide for example or lie or, I might add, torture or torment. Sorry about the multiple posts, I should have combined them into one.

 

[rjs330]

Let the holy water flow! And as is written:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1)

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim 2:13)

So God's hope crystallises into faith and faithfulness, ergo He cannot but deliver on said hope.

That's right he will, but only for those that believe. There will be those that don't.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No! Scripture taken out of context again!

For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.We are not again commending ourselves unto you, but speak as giving you occasion of glorying on our behalf, that ye may have wherewith to answer them that glory in appearance, and not in heart.For whether we are beside ourselves, it is unto God; or whether we are of sober mind, it is unto you.For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Corinthians 5:10-19 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 5:10-19 - American Standard Version

It is those that are IN CHRIST that are new creatures and walk not after the flesh. Christ was reconciling all the world so they could be of God through him. You have to believe in Christ here and now. You don't get another chance after you die.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. - 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - American Standard Version

Paul even says this in his first letter to the Corinthians.

Nay, but ye yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:8-11 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:8-11 - American Standard Version

God was in Christ reconciling the WHOLE WORLD to Him. ALL of creation. Not just some elite remnant of snobbish holier-than-thou's (thank God). Guaranteeing the salvation of EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. Why trample the glory underfoot.

And if God has done it, it's only a matter of time before each and every creature becomes reconciled to God, ie believes and is sanctified. That's what these other verses you've cited are about, sanctification. I'm not sure how to get this through to you, we don't save ourselves.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. (Col 1:16)

Isn't it a form of blasphemy to suggest the creature's will overcomes the Creator's? Or that God is an iconoclast, smashing His own created images?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That's right he will, but only for those that believe. There will be those that don't.

Paul's saying in Rom 8:20-21 is universal:

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Jesus, not the unbeliever or sinner, has the keys to death and Hades.

 

[Saint Steven]

Just a thought but could even God have created people like us in a world that was different than this world? Let's suppose He created a world where there were no accidents or illnesses. I'm sure He could he if He had wanted to but would we be the same type of creatures with compassion for the sick that we are now?

I was walking out my front door once with a load I was carrying in both arms. I managed to get the door open (with my elbow) but was stopped short when I found out that the door handle had hooked my back belt loop on the way by. - lol

In the midst of this annoying, but somewhat amusing, situation I wondering if things like this will happen in heaven. Or will things always go smoothly?

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul's saying in Rom 8:20-21 is universal:

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Right.
Like the quoted scripture reads, "creation itself".
What would be included in creation? Everything that was created.

 

[misput]

It's not the error of Greek scholar's surely but of English (or Latin) translators.

So God has been unable to preserve His word, sad isn't it?

 

[misput]

Just a thought but could even God have created people like us in a world that was different than this world? Let's suppose He created a world where there were no accidents or illnesses. I'm sure He could he if He had wanted to but would we be the same type of creatures with compassion for the sick that we are now?

Even God can't do everything - He can't commit suicide for example or lie or, I might add, torture or torment. Sorry about the multiple posts, I should have combined them into one.

So God created a mess so we could learn to have compassion?

 

[misput]

Yes but this goes back to the BIG question you asked about why there is suffering in this life. This is something that is real and which has been thought about throughout history. That's a totally different type of question to the BABY question of whether God would ever eternally torture someone which is a relatively recent postulate (possibly invented but at least popularised by Augustine) and which can be easily answered with a No.

I hope you are wright.

 

[Fervent]

"seeming" is the operative word. I'm not a Bible scholar but all the "contradictions" I've come across have been simple translation errors from the ancient Greek. Jesus said "kolasis anonios" which means something like "corrective punishment for a time limited duration" but it's translated in most English Bibles, but by no means all, as "eternal punishment'". If you bear that in mind every time you see "eternal punishment, that's one seeming contradiction dealt with. I'm sure there's similar explanations for all the others, as you suggest, but that's the big one I think.



I agree, we don't know the answers to big questions like that. But the question of whether God will ever torture anyone is not a big question. It's a baby question and the answer is No.

Considering you know nothing of Koine Greek it's rather amusing you've decided a fringe minority of scholars opinion on how to translate aionios kolasis outweighs the historic and current consensus of translators including secular Greek scholars.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Considering you know nothing of Koine Greek it's rather amusing you've decided a fringe minority of scholars opinion on how to translate aionios kolasis outweighs the historic and current consensus of translators including secular Greek scholars.

Fringe minority? I invite you to read through this detailed investigation into 'kolasin'.
The Meaning of Kolasin

Excerpt as follows:

Thus far we have seen that numerous fluent writers of Greek have explicitly defined kolasin as corrective punishment and used it in such a way that demonstrates this to be its clear meaning. These sources include secular writers such as Plato, Aristotle, Theophrastus, and Aulus Gellius, as well as Christian sources like Clement of Alexandria, Methodius and Epiphanius, spanning a roughly 800-year period from Plato (born in 428 B.C.) to Epiphanius (died in 403 A.D.). It is also noteworthy that these writings occurred both before Christ and after Christ, and that some of them were written near to the time of the composition of the Gospels.

 

[Hmm]

So God has been unable to preserve His word, sad isn't it?

It is preserved, just not perfectly so in every English translation. Some Bibles incorporate the latest scholarship findings and some don't for fear of losing their established readership. This is not sad, it's corporate greed.

 

[Hmm]

So God created a mess so we could learn to have compassion?

Who knows? All I know is that we can't be the people that we are unless we are in a world like this. Even God couldn't bring that about.

 

[Hmm]

I hope you are wright.

Yes. It would be a first though!

 

[Hmm]

Fringe minority? I invite you to read through this detailed investigation into 'kolasin'.

I was hesitant about bring up the word again. Pavlov warned me.