Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Clare73]

It's a pity there's no dedicated sub-forum here where you can have a positive discussion about Christian universalism without having to keep saying the obvious like this simply to counteract Team Hell's obsession with God as Torturer. It gets pretty boring after a while and no doubt even more boring to read!

I wish simply "boring" were the issue with the half-baked theology of the anti-gospel team.

"He who does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men," (Romans 5:18)

 

[Lazarus Short]

I wish simply "boring" were the issue with the half-baked theology of the anti-gospel team.

"He who does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (John 3:18)

"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men," (Romans 5:18)

Since "hell" and the damnation of most of humanity to it cannot possibly be Good News, then I must assume you are speaking of "team Hell" as the "anti-gospel team." I see the salvation/reconciliation of ALL as a glorious thing, but somehow you see it as "half baked." I would think the theology of "hell" would be burnt to a black crisp.

Next item: Just what are you trying to say or imply in quoting John 3:18? If you are trying to say that UR-believers do not believe in the Son/Jesus the Christ, you are WAY off base.

Next item: What's with the stress on "condemnation"? God tells us not to judge a thing before the time and that He reserves the Final Decision to Himself. Why jump the gun so?

 

[Clare73]

Since "hell" and the damnation of most of humanity to it cannot possibly be Good News,

NEWSFLASH!!!

Strawman. . .
It's the basis of the good news. . .evidently you don't know what the "good news" is.

then I must assume you are speaking of "team Hell" as the "anti-gospel team."

No wonder you've got it all backwards and confused.

I see the salvation/reconciliation of ALL as a glorious thing, but somehow you see it as "half baked." I would think the theology of "hell" would be burnt to a black crisp.

Next item: Just what are you trying to say or imply in quoting John 3:18? If you are trying to say that UR-believers do not believe in the Son/Jesus the Christ, you are WAY off base.

Not "trying to imply," I'm stating it: Jesus declares condemnation in John 3:18. . .it's up to you to believe him or not

Next item: What's with the stress on "condemnation"?

Those aren't my consequences. . .don't blame them on me. . .those are God's revealed consequences. . .
take it up with him.

God tells us not to judge a thing before the time and that He reserves the Final Decision to Himself. Why jump the gun so?

Strawman. . .

 

[Lazarus Short]

NEWSFLASH!!!

Strawman. . .
It's the basis of the good news. . .evidently you don't know what the "good news" is.

No wonder you've got it all backwards and confused.

Not "trying to imply," I'm stating it: Jesus declares condemnation in John 3:18. . .it's up to you to believe him or not

Those aren't my consequences. . .don't blame them on me. . .those are God's revealed consequences. . .
take it up with him.

Strawman. . .

More of the same: "strawman" accusations, but hardly arguments...turning a comment around as an insult...you are flashy on the surface, but not in the depth. Thanks for the reminder of your tactics. I will avoid you in the future, if not block you.

 

[misput]

I think it's easy to get confusion over the dual concepts of God's wrath and judgment.
Many Christians have been taught to understand God's wrath and judgment as separate from, or opposed to His mercy and love. They seem to be two distinct things. How can God be merciful and loving if He is also wrathful and just? We naturally imagine that if God is just, He will be wrathful on sin, but if He is merciful then He will forgive us and withhold a wrathful justice from us.

But the trouble with this concept of God is that it's saying that God is double-minded but He isn't, He has one mind and one will, and does not change his mind like we do. If God is both just and merciful, then these can't be opposing traits. They are part of God's single nature and eternal and so they must be the same thing. IOW, God's justice is merciful, and His mercy is just. These two qualities aren't opposed to each other.

A lot of the reasons for the belief in ECT have to do with simply mistranslations and this leads to a false understanding of God as Torturer rather than Father. The word for "wrath" in Greek is orgé, and this doesn't mean a sudden outburst of anger but a fixed disposition of the will against something. God doesn't want to torture us if we are sinful - His orgé as his fixed antipathy towards sin, not a passionate rage.agaunst us

Seeing it this way, God’s wrath can be understood as His implacable opposition to what is wrong with us. He will never tolerate or permit sin to remain unopposed but He doesn't not do this out of an uncontrolled anger but rather.as.an outpouring of His love for us and an abiding concern for our wellbeing.

He like how we need a doctor to be. For a doctor to be merciful he has to do all he can to heal disease. He must be implacable opposed to our disease but kind towards us.

How can God be less than this. If His justice and hatred towards sin is not merciful towards us then it's merely harming us which would be unfair. And If His mercy towards us ignores what is just, and is not truly opposed to our sin then it would make God ineffective and unable to save us.

So we should not accept the theology that Team Hell is caught up in and attempts to push in the rest of us where God is divided up into opposing wills, or competing attributes. Their theology says that God will have to ignore His sense of what is just and right if He is going to be merciful,but this simply shows an inability to understand God as being one in His nature.

It seems odd to have to say it, but God is neither an executioner who.will annihilate some of us without appeal, and neither is He a torturer who will keep us alive forever in a state of pain and regret for what we did or didn't do or believe in this life.

Thank you for your explanation but like I said, I do not believe anyone understands all the details of God's judgement, not even close. That's why we must walk by faith.

 

[Clare73]

More of the same: "strawman" accusations, but hardly arguments...turning a comment around as an insult...you are flashy on the surface, but not in the depth. Thanks for the reminder of your tactics. I will avoid you in the future, if not block you.

And that explains both your response to the gospel as not being good news (which comment was turned "around as an insult") and your refusal to address the Scriptures presented.

 

[Hmm]

Thank you for your explanation but like I said, I do not believe anyone understands all the details of God's judgement, not even close. That's why we must walk by faith.

I agree that we don't can't know fully comprehend God's judgement because we are finite minds and He is an infinite.Mind, but I believe we can say that His justice will not be so different to our sense of justice that we won't be able to recognise it as justice. Christ shows us exactly what He is like so that does rule out certain option such as eternal torture, and IMO even permanent destruction. These things are not compatible with Christ.

 

[Hmm]

You are shooting down a strawman

I'm not sure you can. The bullets would pass through the straw without much impact and the strawman would simply carry on.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure you can. The bullets would pass through the straw without much impact and the strawman would simply carry on.

Is that why you present strawmen?

There are more than bullets to shoot with.

Oops! You aren't familiar with the frontier.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's a pity there's no dedicated sub-forum here where you can have a positive discussion about Christian universalism without having to keep saying the obvious like this simply to counteract Team Hell's obsession with God as Torturer. It gets pretty boring after a while and no doubt even more boring to read!

We might be able to request one.
This is obviously a growing interest on the forum.

There is no recognized denomination. Not sure if that is required or not. Certainly a definable group. And I would gladly welcome anyone to join the discussion as long as they don't violate the rules.

 

[Hmm]

We might be able to request one.
This is obviously a growing interest on the forum.

Christian universalism is becoming more popular IRL toi as measured by the only metrics possible, books sold, videos watched etc. This isn't surprising because it's hard not to be a universalist once the straw man arguments are done away with and it becomes clear what it actually means.

I guess one problem with a dedicated forum might be that it becomes an echo chamber. It may be best to stay discussing it here with Team Hell because they do an excellent job of making universalism look good by contrast.

There is no recognized denomination.

That's true. I wonder if it could be though, with it's articles of faith being the Nicene Creed and a single statement of belief in universal restoration.

 

[misput]

I agree that we don't can't know fully comprehend God's judgement because we are finite minds and He is an infinite.Mind, but I believe we can say that His justice will not be so different to our sense of justice that we won't be able to recognise it as justice. Christ shows us exactly what He is like so that does rule out certain option such as eternal torture, and IMO even permanent destruction. These things are not compatible with Christ.

I hope you are right but as you well know there is a ton of scripture that paints another picture so I am comfortable just leaving it up to God.

 

[rjs330]

you are trying to say that UR-believers do not believe in the Son/Jesus the Christ, you are WAY off base.

I think they believe. But they believe everyone will eventually, including after they die. Which is not biblical at all. Not everyone with have faith in Christ before they die and afterwards it's too late.

 

[rjs330]

And that explains both your response to the gospel as not being good news (which comment was turned "around as an insult") and your refusal to address the Scriptures presented.

I find it interesting that UR folks when really challenged, just decide to block instead of see how their doctrine is incorrect. The sad thing is is that because they believe everyone will be saved in the end, they will lead others astray. Others who will hear they will be saved and will decide not to believe now and live for themselves and for their wicked hearts. Then when they stand before God and are cast into the Lake of Fire, they will have more to chew on and be angry about. Of course they will have no excuse, but the UR fills will have something to answer for even though they are entering heaven.

 

[rjs330]

Since "hell" and the damnation of most of humanity to it cannot possibly be Good News, then I must assume you are speaking of "team Hell" as the "anti-gospel team." I see the salvation/reconciliation of ALL as a glorious thing, but somehow you see it as "half baked." I would think the theology of "hell" would be burnt to a black crisp.

I don't b lieve for a second that you are that naive. I think you know good and well that the Good News is not that everyone gets to be in hell. You are deliberately twisting what others are saying.

UR is half baked because it is a false doctrine. It is not scriptural. There are no scriptures that say everyone will be saved. In fact it says the opposite.

 

[Hmm]

I hope you are right but as you well know there is a ton of scripture that paints another picture so I am comfortable just leaving it up to God.

Well, I certainly do not know that about scripture. They are largely the result of mistranslations as as has already been discussed but you've clearly thought about the wider question so I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[misput]

Well, I certainly do not know that about scripture. They are largely the result of mistranslations as as has already been discussed but you've clearly thought about the wider question so I'm happy to agree to disagree.

So many professional translators over thousands of years with God's oversight, forgive me for being skeptical.

 

[Servus]

I might be more convinced to completely reject the notion of UR, if the arguments against it wasn't mostly sarcastic, derogatory, disparaging, repetitive naysaying.

 

[misput]

error

 

[misput]

Christian universalism is becoming more popular IRL toi as measured by the only metrics possible, books sold, videos watched etc. This isn't surprising because it's hard not to be a universalist once the straw man arguments are done away with and it becomes clear what it actually means.

I guess one problem with a dedicated forum might be that it becomes an echo chamber. It may be best to stay discussing it here with Team Hell because they do an excellent job of making universalism look good by contrast.



That's true. I wonder if it could be though, with it's articles of faith being the Nicene Creed and a single statement of belief in universal restoration.

That's true. I wonder if it could be though, with it's articles of faith being the Nicene Creed and a single statement of belief in universal restoration.

I have never seen a creed of men that did not have one or more "holes" in it. UR is a high-lee controversial subject, as this thread proves, so good luck with that denomination.