• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The squeaky clean ones maybe.
I'm very suspicious of blue tooth mice.
I think they got into the blueberries. (or worse)

They claim to be wireless, but I think the cat got their tail.
Or was that tongue? ... can't say...
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You objected to my post quoted below.
I'm not trying to create an argument, but if the crime was on
the man (Adam), how is it that he was not deceived?

Did he do it willfully, with full knowledge of his crime?
Why didn't he stop his wife (Eve) if he was not deceived?
Perhaps he was chagrined (oops), since God said nothing about
touching the fruit, probably Adam's addition to the warning.

And the serpent may have demonstrating that
touching the fruit was not lethal. Thus making Adam a liar.
Oops, was that the original sin?
All sorts of complications here.

Saint Steven said:
The serpent initiated the whole transaction.

Saint Steven said:
He and Eve were deceived by the serpent. They had made no willful plans to disobey God that I am aware of.
The serpent is a simple metaphor which most cannot figure out, much less anything remotely complicated. Ditto for the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
How about the riches that really count?

One of the very encouraging things about Christian universalism is that you know that your riches are in heaven and that you are going to enjoy them one day, and not lose them because you get consigned to an eternal hell for not believing in exactly the right way.

Take the workers in the vineyard parable.
To me, this parable has is a story of universal reconciliation. It doesn't make sense in any other context. The workers who worked from the beginning of the day are given the same reward,.or riches, as the workers from the last hour.

Now, if you look Team Hell's conception of Christianity, you'll see that they accept that eternal life is a static concept and it doesn't matter if you believe at an early age or on your death bed. So being resentful of a similar reward doesn't seem to fit. However, as we see in the universalist threads like this one and suggest that all people will eventually (possibly through great hardship and suffering) come to believe and that all eventually receive the same salvation they get pretty upset about it. Do you think that is rational behaviour? And we need to be rational because we are called to have a mature faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
One of the very encouraging things about Christian universalism is that you know that your riches are in heaven and that you are going to enjoy them one day, and not lose them because you get consigned to an eternal hell for not believing in exactly the right way.
You do realize that is a denial of the gospel, right? . . .which is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin and you will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) on it.

Blindness to the gospel. . .worrisome indeed. . .the inevitable result of heresy.

A word to the wise is sufficient.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Being adamant about who is or isn't saved is not in our job description. Now I wonder who's job it is? Who gives the increase? Who wants to pretend to be God? I am doing well if I am secure in my own salvation, let alone someone else.
 
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You do realize that is a denial of the gospel, right?

Great argument. There's a lot to think about there so let me process it all and get back to you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Being adamant about who is or isn't saved is not in our job description. Now I wonder who's job it is? Who gives the increase? Who wants to pretend to be God? I am doing well if I am secure in my own salvation, let alone someone else.
Strawman. . .

Being adamant about the purity of gospel doctrine is our job description.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,503
10,870
New Jersey
✟1,357,660.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
You do realize that is a denial of the gospel, right? . . .which is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin and you will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) on it.

Blindness to the gospel. . .worrisome indeed. . .the inevitable result of heresy.

A word to the wise is sufficient.
Not so fast. If we read Paul literally, Christ died for everyone. It's perfectly possible that God's wrath is finite, and in the end God will be all in all.

My skepticism is because of Jesus' teaching, not Paul.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Great argument. There's a lot to think about there so let me process it all and get back to you.

To get back to you then, I've been through your argument that I'm "denying the gospel" with a fine toothcomb and found one minor, but I think fatal, flaw with it and that's that it's complete nonsense.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not so fast. If we read Paul literally, Christ died for everyone. It's perfectly possible that God's wrath is finite, and in the end God will be all in all.

My skepticism is because of Jesus' teaching, not Paul.
Okay, I understand that as disagreement regarding my statement.

But did Jesus not say, "Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already" (John 3:18)?

My response was to what it is necessary to believe for salvation.
And that is: (faith) in Jesus Christ, right?
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,503
10,870
New Jersey
✟1,357,660.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Okay, I understand that as disagreement regarding my statement.

But did Jesus not say, "Whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already" (John 3:18)?

My response was to what it is necessary to believe for salvation.
And that is: (faith) in Jesus Christ, right?
That’s from Jesus, not Paul. I find universalism implausible for Jesus, but I think it possible that Paul teaches it.

I can make a case for Jesus as well, but not one that I find convincing. If that makes sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That’s from Jesus, not Paul. I find universalism implausible for Jesus, but I think it possible that Paul teaches it.

I can make a case for Jesus as well, but not one that I find convincing. If that makes sense.
Okay, I thought I might be misunderstanding your post.

Got it now.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,503
10,870
New Jersey
✟1,357,660.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
In my opinion, to get universalism from Jesus, you have to say that all of his statements about punishment refer to something finite. That’s almost possible in Luke, but difficult in Matthew.

John has a different scheme. The Synoptics talk about punishment. John really doesn’t. Indeed he denies that Christ came to condemn anyone. It’s not that enemies are punished, but that the only way to eternal life is Christ. So without faith in him, you don’t have eternal life, and bring on your own disaster.

I’ve pointed out in other postings that you can see differences in how Matthew and Luke handle the same teaching, with Matthew being more judgmental. If you think the Gospel writers each have their own perspective, one could choose Luke and Paul as guides, and possibly end up with universalism. I can see it, but I’m not quite willing to go there. I think some probably are lost.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,026
384
86
Pacific, Mo.
✟173,825.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Strawman. . .

Being adamant about the purity of the doctrine of the gospel is our job description.
This is not about the gospel, it is about Gods wrath and judgement. I have not seen anyone on here that I thought was denying the gospel. I respect your opinion but it is no better or worse than anyone else who believes in God except in your own mind.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
This is not about the gospel, it is about Gods wrath and judgement.

I think it's easy to get confusion over the dual concepts of God's wrath and judgment.
Many Christians have been taught to understand God's wrath and judgment as separate from, or opposed to His mercy and love. They seem to be two distinct things. How can God be merciful and loving if He is also wrathful and just? We naturally imagine that if God is just, He will be wrathful on sin, but if He is merciful then He will forgive us and withhold a wrathful justice from us.

But the trouble with this concept of God is that it's saying that God is double-minded but He isn't, He has one mind and one will, and does not change his mind like we do. If God is both just and merciful, then these can't be opposing traits. They are part of God's single nature and eternal and so they must be the same thing. IOW, God's justice is merciful, and His mercy is just. These two qualities aren't opposed to each other.

A lot of the reasons for the belief in ECT have to do with simply mistranslations and this leads to a false understanding of God as Torturer rather than Father. The word for "wrath" in Greek is orgé, and this doesn't mean a sudden outburst of anger but a fixed disposition of the will against something. God doesn't want to torture us if we are sinful - His orgé as his fixed antipathy towards sin, not a passionate rage.agaunst us

Seeing it this way, God’s wrath can be understood as His implacable opposition to what is wrong with us. He will never tolerate or permit sin to remain unopposed but He doesn't not do this out of an uncontrolled anger but rather.as.an outpouring of His love for us and an abiding concern for our wellbeing.

He like how we need a doctor to be. For a doctor to be merciful he has to do all he can to heal disease. He must be implacable opposed to our disease but kind towards us.

How can God be less than this. If His justice and hatred towards sin is not merciful towards us then it's merely harming us which would be unfair. And If His mercy towards us ignores what is just, and is not truly opposed to our sin then it would make God ineffective and unable to save us.

So we should not accept the theology that Team Hell is caught up in and attempts to push in the rest of us where God is divided up into opposing wills, or competing attributes. Their theology says that God will have to ignore His sense of what is just and right if He is going to be merciful,but this simply shows an inability to understand God as being one in His nature.

It seems odd to have to say it, but God is neither an executioner who.will annihilate some of us without appeal, and neither is He a torturer who will keep us alive forever in a state of pain and regret for what we did or didn't do or believe in this life.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,393
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,356.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Seeing it this way, God’s wrath can be understood as His implacable opposition to what is wrong with us. He will never tolerate or permit sin to remain unopposed but He doesn't not do this out of an uncontrolled anger but rather.as.an outpouring of His love for us and an abiding concern for our wellbeing.
Wow!
That's solid gold right there. Well said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,027
35
Shropshire
✟193,879.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Wow!
That's solid gold right there. Well said.

It's a pity there's no dedicated sub-forum here where you can have a positive discussion about Christian universalism without having to keep saying the obvious like this simply to counteract Team Hell's obsession with God as Torturer. It gets pretty boring after a while and no doubt even more boring to read!
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is not about the gospel,
Review the conversation where belief to salvation, which is the gospel, is stated.
it is about Gods wrath and judgement. I have not seen anyone on here that I thought was denying the gospel. I respect your opinion but it is no better or worse than anyone else who believes in God except in your own mind.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,839
7,670
North Carolina
✟361,553.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think it's easy to get confusion over the dual concepts of God's wrath and judgment.
Many Christians have been taught to understand God's wrath and judgment as separate from, or opposed to His mercy and love. They seem to be two distinct things. How can God be merciful and loving if He is also wrathful and just? We naturally imagine that if God is just, He will be wrathful on sin, but if He is merciful then He will forgive us and withhold a wrathful justice from us.
But the trouble with this concept of God is that it's saying that God is double-minded but He isn't, He has one mind and one will, and does not change his mind like we do. If God is both just and merciful, then these can't be opposing traits. They are part of God's single nature and eternal and so they must be the same thing. IOW, God's justice is merciful, and
His mercy is just. These two qualities aren't opposed to each other.
And a just mercy has conditions, the justice of that mercy in this case requires that one's deeds/works demonstrate faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for that mercy. There are no deeds/works after death to demonstrate such saving faith.
A lot of the reasons for the belief in ECT have to do with simply mistranslations
How convenient. . .

Those "mistranslations" are Biblically demonstrated to be precisely what they purport.
and this leads to a false understanding of God as Torturer rather than Father. The word for "wrath" in Greek is orgé, and this doesn't mean a sudden outburst of anger but a fixed disposition of the will against something. God doesn't want to torture us if we are sinful - His orgé as his fixed antipathy towards sin, not a passionate rage.agaunst us
You are shooting down a strawman.
"Torturer" is your personal characterization of the natural consequences/experience of finding yourself totally separated from God by choice.
Seeing it this way, God’s wrath can be understood as His implacable opposition to what is wrong with us. He will never tolerate or permit sin to remain unopposed but
He doesn't not do this out of an uncontrolled anger
Where in orthodox Christian theology do you find this concept of God's opposition being a matter of "uncontrolled" anger?
Strawman. . .

You have set up a half-baked theology as a strawman of God's justice to shoot down with human sentiments.

To the showers!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0