Womens roles in the church

[All Glory To God]

No.
You said "well God gives us a pretty demanding list to be a Pastor" - your exact words, see post #844.
I replied that this is not a definitive list - important things like faith aren't even mentioned.

I also said that you can't pick and choose things. If someone is going to be prevented from being a Pastor because you believe that list of qualities says they HAVE to be a man; fine. That list also says they HAVE to be married, have children, be able to teach, be able to handle money, not be quarrelsome etc. So I would expect to see argumentative, single/infertile men being refused ordination - according to that Scripture.

It is inconsistent to focus on one small detail, which you may have misunderstood anyway, and ignore everything else.



a) Forbidding women to be ordained is not God's will - if it was, he wouldn't call them to this ministry.
b) calling born again, Spirit filled Christian sisters, "sinners" and "deceived" might well be sinful.
c) Preventing them from being ordained, or planting so many doubts in their minds that they don't follow God's leading, might well be sinful.
d) stating that a Scripture means what YOU believe it to mean and saying that anyone who doesn't agree is a sinner, is also sinful - as is the claim that it is your job to call sinners out on their behaviour. In fact, that IS deluded; that's the Spirit's job. If you are seriously concerned that women are sinning by being ordained, share your concerns - the pray that God will convict them, show them the truth, lead them to repent and so on. You are not the Lord, you did not write Scripture and you do not have the authority of the Apostles.



I am not dreaming up any excuse.
I have asked a number of questions, and made a number of points, about your interpretation of these verses - you can't, or won't, answer.
I am not going to accept this is what God is saying just because you say that it is. I disagree. I know many lovely, devout, sincere women Ministers - the very ones whom you are dismissing as "deceived" without knowing a thing about them.

See you're not paying attention. I'm writing you now and you are telling me what I said yesterday with an informal comment. I'm starting to think based on your posts you like to lecture rather than listen and learn. And if that's the case we can close the conversation because you are not in a position to lecture me. Are you?

 

[Archivist]

She is not a deacon. You are elevating people to offices which cannot be held by them.

Romans 16:1 (NIV): “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchrae.” Paul specifically used the Greek term diakonos.

 

[Archivist]

So as long as a person professed to have faith in Christ, you would not object to them being a pastor? Is that correct?

I never said that, did I?

 

[Archivist]

VERSE 28.There is neither Jew norGreek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for yeare all one in Christ Jesus.

The list might be extended indefinitely:There is neither preacher nor hearer, neither teacher nor scholar, neithermaster nor servant, etc. In the matter of salvation, rank, learning,righteousness, influence count for nothing...

Martin Luther's commentary on Gal 3
Galatians 3 Commentary - Martin Luther's Bible Commentary

- Luther obviously also recognized the context is about salvation.

And you are entitled to your interpretation. Why do you keep making such a big deal about Luther? He was a man of his time.

 

[Archivist]

No. It means that a male deacon must not be unfaithful. Of course, a female deacon shouldn't be unfaithful either. Adultery is a sin regardless of who the perpetrator is.

Agreed.

 

[All Glory To God]

Romans 16:1 (NIV): “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchrae.” Paul specifically used the Greek term diakonos.

I clicked the link and this forum said "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae"

And you are also a Greek speaking expert?

 

[All Glory To God]

I never said that, did I?

It is a question I am asking.

 

[Archivist]

I clicked the link and this forum said "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church that is at Cenchreae"

And you are also a Greek speaking expert?

I never claimed to be a Greek speaking expert. Among other things I am a retired librarian. I have and know how to use a Bible dictionary and a Bible concordance.

Yes, some versions of the Bible use the term servant. CEV uses leader. Douay-Rheims says “she is in the ministry of the church.”

 

[Archivist]

It is a question I am asking.

I would say a child molester shouldn’t be a pastor. I’m not going to sit here and come up with a long list for you. Where are you going with this?

 

[All Glory To God]

I never claimed to be a Greek speaking expert. Among other things I am a retired librarian. I have and know how to use a Bible dictionary and a Bible concordance.

Yes, some versions of the Bible use the term servant. CEV uses leader. Douay-Rheims says “she is a leader in the church.”

You never claimed to be a Greek speaker but translated the Greek. How can you translate a language with confidence if you don't speak that language? (No response required)

 

[Archivist]

You never claimed to be a Greek speaker but translated the Greek. How can you translate a language with confidence if you don't speak that language? (No response required)

Don't you trust a dictionary to give you a definition, word meaning, and word origin?

 

[All Glory To God]

I would say a child molester shouldn’t be a pastor. I’m not going to sit here and come up with a long list for you. Where are you going with this?

I agree about restricting those people but I don't see how that fits with your view. You appeared to be saying people can be called to be a pastor regardless of what scriptures say. That being the case, how can you bind the spirit if a child molester says he has faith and is called by the spirit to be a pastor? If you want to be consistent, under your system, you should allow this person to take this office. Because the spirit cannot be restricted, can he?

I don't have that problem. Scripture tells me that child molesters are excluded from the office of pastor.

 

[All Glory To God]

Don't you trust a dictionary to give you a definition, word meaning, and word origin?

LOL I can use them but what happens if they are wrong. I wouldn't know that because I don't speak that language. So it's sort of pointless me using them. I do know why people "go back to the Greek" even when they can't speak it. It's so they can switch-out words that cause them trouble.

 

[Strong in Him]

See you're not paying attention. I'm writing you now and you are telling me what I said yesterday with an informal comment.

Like everything else, context is important.
You made a comment, this evening, saying that I was being dishonest - because faith isn't included in the list of qualities in 1 Timothy, you judged that I considered that list to be void.

I responded by saying that you had originally pointed to the passage in 1 Tim as being a demanding list for being a Pastor. - it was you who, essentially, said "here is the demanding list of qualities that you need".
I said at the time that that is not an inclusive, definitive list - it doesn't talk of faith or spiritual qualities.
In other words, a Pastor needs many more qualities that are given in that list.

I'm starting to think based on your posts you like to lecture rather than listen and learn.

I'm not lecturing - I'm trying to understand your posts.
If you say, "here is a demanding list of qualities needed to be a Pastor" and I say "faith and spirituality are not on that list", how can you then say that I am trying to dismiss it, claim it is sinful or dishonest?

Simple question: are the only qualities/qualifications that someone needs to be a pastor those that are given in 1 Timothy 3:2-7 - yes or no?
If your answer is "yes", then you are saying that prayer, theology, faith - although Paul does say that they mustn't be a recent convert - don't matter since they are not stated. So someone might not believe in the Trinity; doesn't matter, as long as they are married, able to manage their children, good with money and everything else that is specifically mentioned here.
If your answer is "no, Paul only gives SOME of the qualities of a Pastor in this list", then that's what I was also saying - this is not a definitive list; I would agree with you.

And if that's the case we can close the conversation because you are not in a position to lecture me. Are you?

No - and no I'm not lecturing you.
But I may come across as slightly exasperated - which I am, because you haven't responded to my questions and comments, and then dismiss me as being dishonest, sinful and someone who is lecturing you.

If ending the conversation will prevent the need for you to respond to the points I have made and questions I have asked about your position; go for it.
I disagree with your position. If you are unable to defend it, so be it.

 

[Strong in Him]

LOL I can use them but what happens if they are wrong. I wouldn't know that because I don't speak that language. So it's sort of pointless me using them. I do know why people "go back to the Greek" even when they can't speak it. It's so they can switch-out words that cause them trouble.

And I know why people dismiss statements like "the Greek doesn't say that/that verse is not in the Greek". They don't want to admit that their cherished position might be wrong, and their interpretation not what was written originally - hence the attack on the language.
I've seen it in another thread on the KJV; the KJV is different from the Greek, there is no possibility that the KJV can be wrong, therefore let's attack those who claim to speak/understand the language and demand to see their credentials.

People who do speak/have studied the language can tell us if we are wrong, or correct, about certain words. The trouble is that some don't like having their theories contradicted.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you not think that is what you try to do, when you try to correct others without allowing them to discern and authorise your role? You decide that is your role, you decide that others should listen to and obey you, and you are accusatory of them when they don't... how is that different from an expectation of exercising authority over others?

No I don’t do what you charge me of. When any believer speaks the word of God and lives in Christ led by the Spirit they are in the authority of the Lord

consider something I wrote here

Two kinds of Authority

There are two kinds of authority, official authority and spiritual authority in the word.

An official positional authority is seen in a static office. This kinds of authority will be set up and in place no matter what the actions of the persons who hold that office. This kind of official authority is a set, positional authority. The person who is in this authority holds this place of “authority” as long as they are in that office.
But spiritual authority or the authority in the word from the Lord is rooted in spiritual life and connection to Christ the head, which all the body must be under. This kind of authority is only given or communicated when a person speaks or lives in God’s life in Christ and has Christ working in them effectually, and this is as they live in the word and deed. For without Jesus we can do nothing. If we can do nothing without Him, them what authority does any believer have in them self? And since all believers are to live in Christ and walk in Him, then all believers have this authority.
If all believers have the life of the Spirit, they are capable of communicating this spiritual authority in Christ. And so all believers are to be submitted or subject one to another because Christ works in all parts of the body and we are all members one of another. The mature believers will have more weight or soundness in the word and life as they have been established an settled (Heb. 5:14). But all can have the Word of Christ dwelling richly in them (Colossians 3:16 KJV).
Spiritual authority in Christ and His word finds it’s source in Jesus Christ’s immediate direction and leading by the Spirit. All those who are led by the Spirit are the Sons of God. This is in contrast to the static office of an official or positional authority, where it is not dependent on the leading of the Spirit.
To have a spiritual authority, is not rooted in a person or a position. It flows from Christ Himself in all the body as he makes us perfect and works in us and effectually gives all the measure he wills. Jesus has all authority and is the source of this.
In an official positional authority or a static authority, the authority is vested in an individual and a place he holds. For example Kings and rulers of the gentiles, or also in the Popes of Catholic church who went out of the word of God had their own official authorities among them. They would give them self power to authorize others in their false Gentile authorities and rule over others in such places and static offices. Jesus rebuked the Gentile lordship, and the rulers who have dominion and authority over others as not being the type of authority we are to have in the church (Matthew 10:42,43 KJV). Yet the catholic Church did not have God's spiritual authority and all believers were right to reject this. The cry of false authority against the word of God was one of the reformers cry along with the doctrines of the scriptures.
Only when believers have Jesus Christ in them who directs a person to word or action does that person exercise authority. This is what we are to be persuaded and exhorted and convinced and taught by. This leading of the Spirit in elder/overseers as well if they abide in this walk and this will be very profitable for the saints, for when an elder/overseers holds fast this faithful word he is able to have sound doctrine and exhort and convince the gainsayers and feed others (Titus 1:9 KJV). In this they will HAVE the rule, which is the word of God and God is governing in their heart and as they are in Christ. they (as all believers) live and move in that sphere of influence in them as they walk in the new creation (Galatians 6:15,16 KJV) as many as as walk according to this rule, peace will be on them.
Elder/overseers have a function in the body as those who watch over and feed exhorting and convincing gainsayers etc. This oversight is recognized as they live in the faithful word and their influence is by example as well. But this is not in a simple static position or like the Gentile rulers where those that are great among them are over them in authority.
Jesus Christ is the the Head of the church (Colossians 2:6,9,10 KJV) and we are the body (Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV), if He tells a part of the body to move and act and speak etc, then that part of the body that moves has authority in him. as the Head. The body has NO authority of itself apart from the head. I hope that helps to understand this distinction a bit more? If you all could see this difference many issues could be clarified.
Spiritual authority in Christ is represented and conferred by Him. If a man tries to be in an official positional static authority in the church and rest his authority on that, that can create an abuse of authority, and if he speaks outside of the word then he has no authority in Christ. In the church we are not to be UNDER such rulers over us anyway.
Those in and official positional authority such as Kings and Governors, political men and police etc, must be obeyed as long as they do not go against God's truth and will (Romans 13 etc)
But when a believer speaks Gods word to others in the life and spirit and they walk in the word and reflect the example to others, they do not press others to obey them in their person, but the word of God in their words and life. It is a subtle distinction but an important one. And those who know the true spiritual authority in the body must also themselves be in the spirit. This authority is known only in Christ.
A person can be in an official positional authority and not be righteous or in faith even and still they have that authority. How many Kings have done evil and Governments etc and still retained that official authority?
Spiritual authority is only seen when Christ is working in us. Official authority is seen no matter what the man does and they will still be in that place, unless others take them out of that place.


And consider Luthers words

“Facing church officials and an excited assembly of people, Luther refused. He said in part, “I do not accept the authority of Popes and councils. My conscience is captive to the word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything.”

 

[Archivist]

I agree about restricting those people but I don't see how that fits with your view. You appeared to be saying people can be called to be a pastor. That being the case, how can you bind the spirit if a child molester says he has faith and is called by the spirit to be a pastor? If you want to be consistent, under your system, you should allow this person to take this office. Because the spirit cannot be restricted, can he?

I don't have that problem. Scripture tells me that child molesters are excluded from the office of pastor.

Except we disagree on what Scripture says about women being pastors. I look at Scripture telling us that in Christ there is neither male nor female. I look at the female deacon and female apostle mentioned by Paul. I look at John’s description of Mary being the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ. It is all in Scripture.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Neither did Christ intend for MEN to exercise authority "OVER" other men, when it came to the ministry. Christ Jesus had nothing but disgust for those who valued exercising authority over others, just like the Gentiles did. "It shall not be so among you", He said.

1 Peter 5:3 also repeated that the elders which were among them were to be above all "examples to the flock", NOT "Lords over God's heritage".

The way some write on this subject, it sounds as if the people were supposed to be the pastor's heritage - not God's.

consider something I wrote here

Two kinds of Authority

There are two kinds of authority, official authority and spiritual authority in the word.

An official positional authority is seen in a static office. This kinds of authority will be set up and in place no matter what the actions of the persons who hold that office. This kind of official authority is a set, positional authority. The person who is in this authority holds this place of “authority” as long as they are in that office.
But spiritual authority or the authority in the word from the Lord is rooted in spiritual life and connection to Christ the head, which all the body must be under. This kind of authority is only given or communicated when a person speaks or lives in God’s life in Christ and has Christ working in them effectually, and this is as they live in the word and deed. For without Jesus we can do nothing. If we can do nothing without Him, them what authority does any believer have in them self? And since all believers are to live in Christ and walk in Him, then all believers have this authority.
If all believers have the life of the Spirit, they are capable of communicating this spiritual authority in Christ. And so all believers are to be submitted or subject one to another because Christ works in all parts of the body and we are all members one of another. The mature believers will have more weight or soundness in the word and life as they have been established an settled (Heb. 5:14). But all can have the Word of Christ dwelling richly in them (Colossians 3:16 KJV).
Spiritual authority in Christ and His word finds it’s source in Jesus Christ’s immediate direction and leading by the Spirit. All those who are led by the Spirit are the Sons of God. This is in contrast to the static office of an official or positional authority, where it is not dependent on the leading of the Spirit.
To have a spiritual authority, is not rooted in a person or a position. It flows from Christ Himself in all the body as he makes us perfect and works in us and effectually gives all the measure he wills. Jesus has all authority and is the source of this.
In an official positional authority or a static authority, the authority is vested in an individual and a place he holds. For example Kings and rulers of the gentiles, or also in the Popes of Catholic church who went out of the word of God had their own official authorities among them. They would give them self power to authorize others in their false Gentile authorities and rule over others in such places and static offices. Jesus rebuked the Gentile lordship, and the rulers who have dominion and authority over others as not being the type of authority we are to have in the church (Matthew 10:42,43 KJV). Yet the catholic Church did not have God's spiritual authority and all believers were right to reject this. The cry of false authority against the word of God was one of the reformers cry along with the doctrines of the scriptures.
Only when believers have Jesus Christ in them who directs a person to word or action does that person exercise authority. This is what we are to be persuaded and exhorted and convinced and taught by. This leading of the Spirit in elder/overseers as well if they abide in this walk and this will be very profitable for the saints, for when an elder/overseers holds fast this faithful word he is able to have sound doctrine and exhort and convince the gainsayers and feed others (Titus 1:9 KJV). In this they will HAVE the rule, which is the word of God and God is governing in their heart and as they are in Christ. they (as all believers) live and move in that sphere of influence in them as they walk in the new creation (Galatians 6:15,16 KJV) as many as as walk according to this rule, peace will be on them.
Elder/overseers have a function in the body as those who watch over and feed exhorting and convincing gainsayers etc. This oversight is recognized as they live in the faithful word and their influence is by example as well. But this is not in a simple static position or like the Gentile rulers where those that are great among them are over them in authority.
Jesus Christ is the the Head of the church (Colossians 2:6,9,10 KJV) and we are the body (Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV), if He tells a part of the body to move and act and speak etc, then that part of the body that moves has authority in him. as the Head. The body has NO authority of itself apart from the head. I hope that helps to understand this distinction a bit more? If you all could see this difference many issues could be clarified.
Spiritual authority in Christ is represented and conferred by Him. If a man tries to be in an official positional static authority in the church and rest his authority on that, that can create an abuse of authority, and if he speaks outside of the word then he has no authority in Christ. In the church we are not to be UNDER such rulers over us anyway.
Those in and official positional authority such as Kings and Governors, political men and police etc, must be obeyed as long as they do not go against God's truth and will (Romans 13 etc)
But when a believer speaks Gods word to others in the life and spirit and they walk in the word and reflect the example to others, they do not press others to obey them in their person, but the word of God in their words and life. It is a subtle distinction but an important one. And those who know the true spiritual authority in the body must also themselves be in the spirit. This authority is known only in Christ.
A person can be in an official positional authority and not be righteous or in faith even and still they have that authority. How many Kings have done evil and Governments etc and still retained that official authority?
Spiritual authority is only seen when Christ is working in us. Official authority is seen no matter what the man does and they will still be in that place, unless others take them out of that place.


And consider Luthers words

“Facing church officials and an excited assembly of people, Luther refused. He said in part, “I do not accept the authority of Popes and councils. My conscience is captive to the word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything.”

 

[Archivist]

LOL I can use them but what happens if they are wrong. I wouldn't know that because I don't speak that language. So it's sort of pointless me using them. I do know why people "go back to the Greek" even when they can't speak it. It's so they can switch-out words that cause them trouble.

That is why I use reputable sources. For example, James Strong first published his concordance and his Greek dictionary in 1890. They have been repeatedly cited over the years. Yes, they are reliable. When I’m dealing with legal documents I use Ballentine’s or Black’s Law Dictionaries. For English word origins I use OED. All reliable sources. I wouldn’t just trust something that someone I don’t know of posted on the net. I presume that you have a good reference library at your home.

If you don’t trust dictionaries, how do you find the meaning of words?

 

[3 Resurrections]

It seems that those who speak the loudest and the longest about "authority" are the most prone to be overbearing and exercise a "lordship" mentality in their associations with fellow Christians - of either gender. At least, this has been my past experience. There is ONE head alone over all things to the church, and that is our Great High Priest Christ Jesus. The equal priesthood of all believers under Him (regardless of gender) is an established reality now under the New Covenant. To belabor the point beyond this betrays a wish to artificially establish a so-called "office" of the ministry. Scripture doesn't really use the word "office" regarding the ministry. This word was artificially inserted in the KJV instead of "ministry", but what can one expect from an earthly monarch in love with power?