...and yet all the scriptures I gave to show clearly what I am saying and my correction and instruction in this matter seem to be totally ignored.
I'm not disputing the Scriptures. I'm disputing your application of them.
No, it is not always a long term process, even though it is also profitable to come along side and word years as I have with others in these things.
While not denying that there are occasions recorded in Scripture when one charismatic leader spoke and there was a strong response, I am going to stand by my statement that that is not the norm in our situation.
You totally misjudge me. I usually , when sent to a church by the Lord (with other brothers as well) will work with them for a long time, get to know as many as I can, sit among them in their gatherings and bible studies and often the brothers and sisters there show love and kindness to me and are encouraged and glad to share together.
I can only go by what you're posting here. And what you're posting is filled with contempt for people.
This is not ac curate what you share here. It is a phycology and philosophy of the modern word, not scripture.
It would be unwise to have no regard for what our best understanding of human psychology can teach us about how to minister well.
...consider these verses and tell me how they fit into your modern phycology of ministry.
I think most of what you're talking about is not "ministry" as we understand it today. Jesus in the temple was not seeking to lead a community. The prophets were voices outside the usual leadership, whether spiritual or temporal. Paul is a better example, but Paul's letters demonstrate a much more complex approach; none of them are unrelievedly negative about the people to whom he writes.
Jesus said similar bold words and rebuked many for sin and even called them certain names. Would you correct Jesus for such words and actions according to your own understanding of ministry? and the modern phycology and philosophy of today?
Of course we don't "correct" Jesus. But in the reading and reflecting together on Scripture, we are able to discern together how those words might be received by us today. And sometimes people need to hear that correction as directed to them, but the way that message is brought will make a huge difference to how it is heard.
I have sat with many one on one. But where do we see in scripture that you have to sit one one one with a church body???? We see whole churches addressed and God's people of all time have often been corrected together as a gathering. Jesus does this to the churches in Revelation and he even says that the Laodicean church will be spewed out of His mouth if they don't repent. Yes we will speak to believers one on one. But also and often to the entire church. For the issues God sends me for are often affecting the entire church.
Do you not remember many conversations which Christ had with one person at a time? I say this because the privacy and care of a one on one conversation allow people to be more honest with themselves and with each other, than if they feel pressure from a group to be a particular way. Often small groups build similar levels of trust over time, but it is the time and the trust that is key.
And what if you find through discussion and the history of a assembly that their views have been shaped by false man made traditions of a long time ago or a false leader that makes the word of God of no effect and that is a corruption form a long time ago? Are we to ignore such things and do nothing to "make men like us more?"
Of course we don't ignore it. But it's much more effective to question it gently, to help people recognise why the views they have held have been unhealthy, and to help them explore options in their thinking, than to yell at them and tell them they should think just like you.
And in what new ways are you speaking of?
Paul himself wrote to the Romans that they must "be transformed by the renewing of their minds." I believe we are speaking of much the same thing; you are speaking of abandoning false traditions etc. and I am saying that part of that is learning to think in new ways, and both of these relate to what Paul said about renewing our minds. Otherwise we simply persist in our old patterns of thought and habits of behaviour.
And show me the "leadership Teams" you speak of in scripture. Yes, I know there are biblical male elders in every church. But show me the word leader ship , or leadership teams, (in the KJV preferably)
Paul wrote of "forms of leadership" (1 Corinthians 12:28), and I used that term because whether a church has a group of elders or a board or a parish council or whatever, every church has some sort of group which deals with practical matters and leads the mission of that church.
This thread would suggest otherwise. It's a pretty blunt attack from you.
There is no such thing as "formal church service" in scripture.
Not in quite the same way you might encounter it today, but there were gatherings with a structure around Scripture, teaching, and a primitive form of communion, with recognised roles taken by authorised people. Much of that was carried over from synagogue services. It would be a mistake to read the NT and conclude that folks were basically having a potluck and a nice time of fellowship without any liturgical structure at all.
The body ministry and the gifts can function every time they gather, and yes even in women in certain aspects as I said in my first post.
The only way I would disagree with you here is that I see Scripture placing no limits on the gifting and ministry of women.
But in scripture the body can minister every time they come together under the command of the Lord. Yes they can use gifts outside the gatherings. But I speak of "when you come together..." and the commandments of the Lord.
I don't disagree. The only point I was making was that to consider only the formal worship gatherings was a mistake, because in all the rest of the week - the small groups, the administration, the teaching, the visiting of the sick, whatever good works that local church does - in all of those things people exercise their gifts, and that is necessary for the whole picture. The gathering or service is not the sum total of ministry or giftedness in a church.
And so I wont have any negative encounters with churches if I don't make waves, don't teach truth that God sends me to speak, if I listen to you over what scripture says???
I'm not saying don't teach what God sends you t speak. I'm talking about how you treat people.
Well, when every part of the body cannot walk in the gifts God gives them (yes men and women within their own measure and order), then the church is hindered and Christ cannot work in everyone to manifest His grace through the mutual edification of one another.
And this is the accusation I reject. Nobody is prevented from walking in the gifts God gives them, except in those places where women are hindered because of sexism and misogyny.
Also I have been to many assemblies of many man made denominations and rarely do I see the whole church free to walk and minister to eachother when they gather together on a Sunday or Saturday or whenever. I am sure in your assembly I would never hear on a Sunday main gathering the words from you or any other person "Let us all wait on the Lord for ministry and exercise our spiritual gift edifying one another."
Then you are wrong. In fact I have done such a thing (not perhaps in those exact words, but in similar terms). And this is a good example of people needing to learn to think in new ways, because the response from the congregation was overwhelmingly negative, including some people refusing to return unless I were to revert to a "traditional" sermon. They were not ready.
But still you attack true prophets and apostles who have often exposed sin in the gatherings even when the gatherings did not recognize them as apostles
Again, I am not attacking anyone. But here's a question I have, after reading all your posts so far. Why have you never sought a recognised leadership role in any of these churches? You claim a God-given mandate to act in that way, why have you never sought to have the church discern and authorise that ministry? Why always act from the outside or the margins?