Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[Clare73]

I can find nothing in scripture saying God only knows the future that he causes.

Previously addressed. . .see posts #439, #448.

"Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite."

"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

The only way to interpret these that way is to assume God does everything which isn't biblical.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Calvinism is a weird interpretation that has to be taught. People don't naturally get it from scripture.

 

[GenemZ]

The rest of the story is man's rebellion and God's response. In Calvinism it's just God playing games, but in scripture God is genuinely grieved by people's actions...a God who arranged everything before hand could certainly not be grieved by what he caused to happen. And within that story are many stories of people who were declared righteous because they chose to obey.

Do you know what an Anthropopathism is?

Its attributing to God human attributes that God does not possess, so that the one God is communication with will understand what God's policy is concerning a matter.

God is never grieved. Yet, He will tell us He is grieved about a matter so we can relate to what God wants to be done, or understood by humans.

If God wanted us to see Calvinism's premise as true? He would not have used the Anthropopathism of being 'grieved.' Leaving it to the theologians to figure out why God would not be grieved when some horrible injustice takes place.

It works both ways.....

 

[Clare73]

Because reality is complicated. It's not just " God done it "

It's over your head?

 

[renniks]

Previously addressed. . .see posts #439, #448.

Only those verses do not say any such thing.

 

[renniks]

God is never grieved. Yet, He will tell us He is grieved about a matter so we can relate to what God wants to be done, or understood by humans.

I don't believe that. I believe God means what he says. I know that is a common claim by calvinists, who seem to prefer a distant, unfeeling deity.

 

[renniks]

It's over your head?

It's over everyone's head in reality.
We don't understand fully how God interacts with his creation. Reducing everything to "God done it." Is simplistic and niave.

 

[Clare73]

It's over everyone's head in reality.
We don't understand fully how God interacts with his creation. Reducing everything to "God done it." Is simplistic and niave.

That pretty much describes your understanding of the sovereignty of God.

 

[renniks]

That pretty much describes your understanding of the sovereignty of God.

I see you have no real argument.

 

[Clare73]

I see you have no real argument.

At least, not that you seem to be able to grasp.

 

[renniks]

That pretty much describes your understanding of the sovereignty of God.

BTW ," sovereign" doesn't mean ", all controlling".

 

[GenemZ]

I don't believe that. I believe God means what he says. I know that is a common claim by calvinists, who seem to prefer a distant, unfeeling deity.

Not distant and unfeeling... Always feeling unspeakable glory beyond our comprehension. And, wanting us to get closer to someday knowing and sharing it with Him.

How can God be grieved when He sees us fail? But, also sees us as living in eternal glory as if it were right now? We are more than conquerors!

Its for our sake He expresses emotions THROUGH Jesus Christ. And, by means of the Holy Spirit.

The Father already sees everything as finished... Not as the situation as sad, etc. Do you feel grief when you read of a tragedy that took place 200 years ago? You simply acknowledge that it was bad, but have no need to have feelings of sympathy for what no longer is.

We get emotional because we are not omniscient. After all.. God created human emotion. Its a good thing. He tests both our mind and our emotions.

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man
according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." Jer 17:10​

Reins - idiom -

Literally 'the kidneys': the emotions are the appreciator
of the soul emotions reflect the mentality of the soul. If not having
doctrine, then emotion rules and is destructive. If doctrine
rules your emotions, heart is in control.

Few get shown that to know it.... It gets too often garbled in modern translations and we never know the truth. That is why finding a pastor who can exegete is essential if we are ever going to get delivered from the dulling haze we face in this world of hidden truth.

 

[renniks]

The Father already sees everything as finished... Not as the situation as sad, etc. Do you feel grief when you read of a tragedy that took place 200 years ago?

Of course I do. I believe God feels more deeply than any human ever could.

 

[GenemZ]

Of course I do. I believe God feels more deeply than any human ever could.

God does not love. It says, "God is love." 1 John 4:8

When it says... God so loved the world? Its language of accomodation so we humans can relate to the concept.

Likewise.. God does not have a feeling as we know it.

God does not glory.

He IS Glorying.

........ all the time.

To see God, is to see absolute Glory.

 

[renniks]

God does not love. It says, "God is love." 1 John 4:8

When it says... God so loved the world? Its language of accomodation so we humans can relate to the concept.

Likewise.. God does not have a feeling as we know it.

God does not glory.

He IS Glorying.

........ all the time.

To see God, is to see absolute Glory.

Says scripture nowhere.
If God doesn't love, Jesus could not have done what he did.

 

[GenemZ]

Says scripture nowhere.
If God doesn't love, Jesus could not have done what he did.

Jesus has two natures. He came to earth to live as one of us, but without sin. His humanity loves like we love. As God he is beyond human love..

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as
we are—yet he did not sin." Heb 4:15

On the other hand? As God? God can not be tempted!

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone." Jmes 1:13

Jesus represents God to man as a man in His expression so man can have something he can relate to to better understand the policy and attitude of God. The humanity of Christ actually interprets and translates God to us in "human speak." (John 1:18)

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]."


Emotions for God? Can you surprise God? How?

Can you make God laugh, when He already knows the punch line before the joke was started?

Can you make God cry for you when you die, when He already sees you overjoyed to find yourself in heaven with a joy that goes beyond our present ability comprehend?

God is Joy. God is Happiness. God is Love.

(yet, terms will be used so that we as humans can relate to a policy or attitude God wishes to convey)... He wants us to think in terms of being humanly loved for our comfort, though God's attitude towards us far exceeds our human concept of love.

grace and peace .......

 

[Mark Quayle]

No it doesn't at all. You have never proven that God has to cause everything, you just claim it's true. You have God playing games with himself and people are just pawns he moves around for kicks. That's not the biblical picture of God. It's more like the Roman gods.

So you deny the logical necessity of causation. Good luck with that. (Yeah that's a play on words, haha)

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not according to scripture .

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Not just some already chosen individuals that obviously could never be called lost.

When he has found the lost are they still lost? Or are they born again?

 

[GenemZ]

When he has found the lost are they still lost? Or are they born again?

How does He get you to become born again?

 

[GenemZ]

No it doesn't at all. You have never proven that God has to cause everything, you just claim it's true. You have God playing games with himself and people are just pawns he moves around for kicks. That's not the biblical picture of God. It's more like the Roman gods.

The Lord had Adam name all the animals.... He "caused Adam to cause things."

After all... we were created in His image. God causes. So does man cause things within a domain granted to man by God. God gave Adam dominion over the earth.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I must disagree. My Christian opinion is that ...
IF GOD gave us a free will as necessary to creating a proper marriage with us by our free will consent or rejection of HIS marriage proposal, then our decision by our free will to accept or reject HIS proposal MUST be sacrosanct or it has no absolute value as free.
sacrosanct:
(especially of a principle, place, or routine) regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with.
Similar: sacred, hallowed, respected, inviolable

If GOD can willy nilly change the results of our choice without our consent, then our choice may have been made by our free will but that free will was not honoured in the result.

Therefore, while HE can change the snake dna to remove his poison, the evil nature of the demons that resulted from a free will decision to repudiate YHWH as a liar and a fase god CANNOT be changed, but must remain inviolate.

Yes, this does imply that the sinful elect who can and do have their sinful natures changed by the Holy Spirit and Christ's redemptive work had to have first accepted Christ as their saviour (if they should ever need saving), asking Him to intervene in their sins, BEFORE their choice to become a evil in HIS eyes, giving John 3:18 a new pov.

Those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour but who later rebelled against HIS commands so as to become sinful could be saved by HIS grace but those who repudiated HIM as a liar and a false god and never put their faith in him had to be left in their sins because they irrevocably chose to be outside of HIS salvation and HIS heavenly marriage forever, considering these things to be all lies.

Besides that your human reasoning, (and that, based on the false notion of self-determination of moral agents), is what pushes this half-logic of freewill, the very notion that lost creatures, in and of themselves, are capable of such things as submission to God, when they are still dead in their sin, HOW, I ask you, can such creatures become worthy of what God has in store for us, by mere freewill???

Has not your own experience taught you how unreliable, weak, silly, lacking in integrity, ignorant and foolish and self-important humans are? It is God who is worthy, and only by his work IN us, can we even begin to approach what only God can call worthiness. "Apart from me you can do nothing."

If GOD can willy nilly change the results of our choice without our consent, then our choice may have been made by our free will but that free will was not honoured in the result.

Strawman. What makes you think I claim God changes the results of our choice at all? He causes our CHOICE. He also causes the results of our choices. Change? The only change is changing US. Regeneration.