Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[Mark Quayle]

What your defining here is regeneration not free will.

So, to you, the bondage of the will has no bearing on the free will debate?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The lost can only be lost?
Were you not lost before you were found and saved?

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Lk 19:10​

When he has found the lost are they still lost? Or are they born again?

 

[Mark Quayle]

When walking in the Spirit and Truth we "adapt" to God....

No. When walking in the Spirit and Truth, we are DEPENDENT on God, and so, begin to become like him. We are of ourselves nothing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Greek differentiates what type of knowledge the "knowledge" is.

Gnosis = knowledge that is acknowledged on a learned academic level. Its the type of knowledge was are warned against - "Knowledge puffs up."

Then there is a knowledge that Paul coined the term "Epignosis."

This knowledge is knowledge that the Holy Spirit gives us life and power in our understanding. Its like food eaten that become assimilated into our body giving us sustenance. Gnosis is like food on the shelf.

...and your point is...?

 

[Mark Quayle]

How does He get you to become born again?

The Spirit of God took up residence within me, changing my will, (my mind and heart). Regenerated me. He didn't ask for my permission. I was dead and never would have asked, never even would have wanted it, and certainly didn't have the comprehension nor knowledge to understand what I was endeavoring to do, nor the power and will to accomplish it, nor the steadfastness and dedication to persevere in it, nor the self-less ambition to deny my willful self-importance.

 

[renniks]

When he has found the lost are they still lost? Or are they born again?

That depends on whether they respond. We were all lost at one time.

 

[renniks]

The Lord had Adam name all the animals.... He "caused Adam to cause things."

After all... we were created in His image. God causes. So does man cause things within a domain granted to man by God. God gave Adam dominion over the earth.

Why is this so hard to understand for the reformed? It's all through scripture.

 

[GenemZ]

Besides that your human reasoning, (and that, based on the false notion of self-determination of moral agents), is what pushes this half-logic of freewill, the very notion that lost creatures, in and of themselves, are capable of such things as submission to God, when they are still dead in their sin, HOW, I ask you, can such creatures become worthy of what God has in store for us, by mere freewill???

Has not your own experience taught you how unreliable, weak, silly, lacking in integrity, ignorant and foolish and self-important humans are? It is God who is worthy, and only by his work IN us, can we even begin to approach what only God can call worthiness. "Apart from me you can do nothing."

Strawman. What makes you think I claim God changes the results of our choice at all? He causes our CHOICE. He also causes the results of our choices. Change? The only change is changing US. Regeneration.

Why do you take it to the extreme of the outer fringes to make your point?

Not everyone is incapable of having free will concerning issues that God arranged so a choice can be made. God controls the circumstances, but our souls (under His grace) is made free to make a choice on a matter.

For example....

If God's grace were not present at gospel hearing? No one would be free to believe, nor free to reject.

The sin nature is manifested in our body. Not in the soul. Yet, the soul is enslaved to the body in which it finds itself.

So, what does grace accomplish? The Holy Spirit suppresses the flesh during a time for decision. When that happens? Our soul is momentarily freed from the tyranny of the flesh. Its at moments like that when the Gospel is presented that the person's soul has been made free to choose for, or against Christ.

That is why God will hold those who reject Christ accountable. Actually, they will be accountable for rejecting the drawing of God that precedes the hearing of the Gospel. (Jn 6:44)

That is why it says that those who do not believe in Jesus, they are ALREADY standing condemned. "Already," because these ones rejected the drawing of God that precedes hearing the Gospel. The very drawing by God that would have landed them in the arms of Jesus if they accepted the drawing of God.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because
they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only
Son." Jn 3:18

​

No one can come to Jesus (believe the Gospel) unless the Father first draws him.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is
written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." Jn 6:44​

The reason Jesus needed to say those words was because the Pharisees had been brainwashing the Jews into thinking they were saved by works.

So? A little later Jesus hits them with a work ... One they could not do, because they took Him literally. "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood." At that point, Jesus succeeded in getting all the dead weight to depart from Him. For they were seeking salvation by works!

grace and peace .....

​

 

[GenemZ]

Why is this so hard to understand for the reformed? It's all through scripture.

Why is it so hard to get many Catholics not to pray to Mary?

 

[Mark Quayle]

That depends on whether they respond. We were all lost at one time.

So you DO have whereof to boast. Ok.

 

[GenemZ]

So you DO have whereof to boast. Ok.

No boasting about salvation.....


Hey...I was broke and near starving... and some billionaire walked up to me and offered me a million dollars with no strings attached.

Aren't I wonderful, and better than you, for taking it?

 

[TedT]

Has not your own experience taught you how unreliable, weak, silly, lacking in integrity, ignorant and foolish and self-important humans are?

Flawed because
1. I am not referring to sinners because sinners have no free will unless they are reborn,
2. human sinners have no free will.

 

[TedT]

The Lord had Adam name all the animals.... He "caused Adam to cause things."

Ever wonder why Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam no suitable helper was found. equates the naming of the animals to Adam's failing search for a suitable helper, that is, a spiritual mentor or a wife?

Ever notice that in Gen 1:31 And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. Good is tov and everything as very good contains the badness of Adam's being alone that was fixed by the creation of Eve? Gen 2:18 The LORD God also said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.” not good - lo (not) tov. I wonder if there was any other not good things that were not mentioned within the everything was good?

Or perhaps good in this bit doesn't refer to a moral goodness any more that it does in calling the sinful good seeds in the parable of the weeds, good, when they are obviously sinners? Could good then be a reference to the physical universe and its people as good for HIS purpose rather than any perfection of creation, ie, it contained the fall of some who witnessed the creation of the physical universe, Job 38:7 ...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? which had already occured?

 

[GenemZ]

Flawed because
1. I am not referring to sinners because sinners have no free will unless they are reborn,
2. human sinners have no free will.

Human sinners have no free will. Under normal conditions. Grace is the power from God to overcome our helpless state of not being able to change.

We all had to be granted "an induced" free will in order to become reborn. That is what the "drawing of God" provides while being drawn. Grace made their sin nature null and void as their soul made its choices. After all, grace is what makes Christians (who still have a sin nature) able to walk righteously!

The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is capacity for life and prosperity of soul." Romans 8:6​

Having free will does not mean someone will not reject God. After all, Satan and his angels all fell from a state of free will. We do not need a depraved nature to reject God.

Not sin. But, evil... is what rejects God when made free by grace to do so. Keep in mind. Satan did not reject God from having a fallen nature. He freely chose to resent, and then reject, God's absolute authority over him...

Grace power makes all fallen men's souls free to choose. Those who reject, were not like men controlled by the sin nature. They freely chose to reject God because grace made their souls free from the sin nature while God granted time to decide.. Therefore, it was not sin... But, the meaning of "evil" took place.

Jesus died for our sins. He could not die for evil.

Evil is what sends someone to the Lake of Fire. Not sin.

 

[GenemZ]

Ever wonder why Gen 2:20 The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam no suitable helper was found. equates the naming of the animals to Adam's failing search for a suitable helper, that is, a spiritual mentor or a wife?

What are you trying to say? That Adam named the animals for what reason????? Searching for his woman? You think Adam knew exactly what it was he was missing? How could he? God knew. Not Adam.

Adam did not know he was to get a helpmate. He instantly named the woman when she was presented to him. He had to FIRST learn the functions of male and female before he could name the woman. He did not know before.

 

[TedT]

What are you trying to say? That Adam named the animals for what reason?????

Adam did not know he was to get a helpmate. He instantly named the woman when she was presented to him. He had to FIRST learn the functions of male and female before he could name the woman. He did not know before.

...then why put those two thoughts together in the verse? Is the verse wrong just because you can't put these two thoughts together in your head?

 

[GenemZ]

...then why put those two thoughts together in the verse? Is the verse wrong just because you can't put these two thoughts together in your head?

I used to put the thought together of that passage until I saw your commentary which makes no sense as it now stands.

So? I do not know if you are seeing it straight. So? Be straight with me an give a real answer instead of playing evasive. Come on!

What are you trying to say? That Adam named the animals for what reason?????

Jesus would have us to answer honestly and without bias distortion.

It was a simple question. Look how its getting drawn out as I try to figure which rabbit hole you ducked into.

One more time... Adam named the animals for what reason?

Because he was really looking for his woman? That is why he did it? (That is what it sounded like you were saying)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[TedT]

So? I do not know if you are seeing it straight. So? Be straight with me an give a real answer instead of playing evasive. Come on!

I am only being evasive because I've been asked not to explain or explore my theology in the public forums.

No restrictions exist for Private Message though...

 

[TedT]

One more time... Adam named the animals for what reason?

Because he was really looking for his woman? That is why he did it?

I can say that no, he was not looking for his helpmeet or spouse but he was trying to deke around accepting Eve whom he rejected. Finding his spouse and naming the animals are bound together by this verse though ignored by general orthodoxy. I will answer pms.

 

[renniks]

So you DO have whereof to boast. Ok.

I can boast about what? I didn't do anything. That's like boasting because someone else fixed my food and I didn't turn it down.