Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

TedT

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If all born again believers in Jesus are HIS SLAVE! We are not free in that sense.
IF our being trained in righteousness by harsh discipline Heb 12:5-11, brings us to understand that evil decisions must be rejected and only righteous options are to be chosen, then we will be doing the will of Christ BY OUR FREE WILL! What need is there for slavery to HIM if we know by our earthly experience just how important choosing righteousness is and how destructive choosing evil is to everything???

There are no married robots in the heavenly marriage, no Stepford wives. To insist there are and we are enslaved in heaven as we were enslaved to sin desecrates the whole meaning of HIS marriage to us based upon love...as no real marriage nor real love can be forced upon anyone as the meaning of enslaved implies.
 
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TedT

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The only real issue in salvation is... "Do you respect/love the Lord's character?"

...

Those who repent only after they have rejected having respect and love for Him and see the judgment, would become merely opportunists, having yet no respect and love for Him.
And, if I may add, cannot be brought to love and acceptance of HIM by their free will once they have seen the proof of HIS Deity and power since proof coerces choice and a free will decision cannot be coerced.

Scripture tells us that we have all seen this proof by what was made, and, if that proof sealed their fate into their free will decision to reject HIM, then nothing about hell can ever bring them to a true repentance.

Also, Satan and the demons are condemned already as never believing, never accepting, never putting their faith in His name, John 3:18, which means experiencing the judgement can have no effect upon their inability to make a free will decision to now accept HIS proposal.

Sinning the unforgivable sin by their free will, that is, rejecting HIS claim that salvation is only found in the Son and thus rejecting His salvatory work in their lives forever as lies of a false god, separated them from GOD's loving mercy and grace for eternity, sealing their fate as eternally evil because their free will decision must be sacrosanct and their enslavement to the addictive properties of evil made them unable to properly repent nor save themselves.

1. A free will decision cannot be coerced by any means.
2. A proposal of marriage and an offer of true love cannot be forced upon a person and make a real marriage but must be accepted by the free will decision of what the person wants to do.
3. Being forced by the proof of HIS deity and thus hell is not the same as making a free will decision to accept HIS marriage proposal and offer of a true love. That is, proof cannot fulfill that which is only available by faith, an unproven hope, Heb 11:1 etc, made by a free will decision.
 
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Clare73

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And, if I may add, cannot be brought to love and acceptance of HIM by their free will once they have seen the proof of HIS Deity and power since proof coerces choice and a free will decision cannot be coerced.
Actually, that is not how it works in the fallen nature of man.
Fallen unregenerate man prefers his will over God's will, his rule over God's rule, his way over God's way, his autonomy over submission to God.
Proof of God's deity does not change his preference, it does not coerce a choice to acknowledge and submit to God, it only strengthens his resistance to God and the losing of his personal autonomy.

Unregenerate man is brought to love and acceptance of God only by the work of God in his disposition (preferences/likes) giving him to prefer submission to God over self -autonomy.
There is no impingement of free will by the work of God, there is only changing of the disposition, which governs the will, whereby the will then freely and voluntarily chooses submission to God without external force or constraint.

Scripture tells us that we have all seen this proof by what was made, and, if that proof sealed their fate into their free will decision to reject HIM, then nothing about hell can ever bring them to a true repentance.
What sealed their fate is what seals the fate of all the damned--spirits as well as humans--preference of self over God, and rejection of God for that reason.
Also, Satan and the demons are condemned already as never believing, never accepting, never putting their faith in His name, John 3:18, which means experiencing the judgement can have no effect upon their inability to make a free will decision to now accept HIS proposal.
The judgment has the same effect on them as did the proof of God's deity; i.e., to strengthen them in their resistance for the sake of their self-autonomy.
Which is why UR is so preposterous, that punishment will change an unregenerate heart to prefer, on its own, submission to God over self autonomy.
It's preposterous on the face of it.
Sinning the unforgivable sin by their free will, that is, rejecting HIS claim that salvation is only found in the Son.
Actually, the unforgivable sin is attributing the works of God the Holy Spirit to the devil,
because then you have made it impossible to be convinced by those works and be saved.

and thus rejecting His salvatory work in their lives forever as lies of a false god, separated them from GOD's loving mercy and grace for eternity, sealing their fate as eternally evil because their free will decision must be sacrosanct and their enslavement to the addictive properties of evil made them unable to properly repent nor save themselves.
1. A free will decision cannot be coerced by any means.
And God doesn't coerce us, he changes our dispositions (which govern the will) to prefer his will, which our will then freely and voluntarily chooses. . .no violation of "freely and willingly choosing what we prefer or like without external force or constraint;" i.e., free will.
2. A proposal of marriage and an offer of true love cannot be forced upon a person and make
a real marriage but must be accepted
The born-again are not on equal footing with God the Father in a marriage.
The church is the bride of Christ, in submission to him as the wife is to be to the husband.
by the free will decision of what the person wants to do.
Which is precisely what happens when God changes our disposition to prefer his will.
3. Being forced by the proof of HIS deity and thus hell is not the same as making a free will decision to accept HIS marriage proposal and offer of a true love.
No problem, no such force takes place in those in whom God works both to will and to do Philippians 2:13).
That is, proof cannot fulfill that which is only available by faith, an unproven hope, Heb 11:1 etc, made by a free will decision.
Actually, "things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are not an "unproven hope."
As far as I'm concerned, they are absolutely and positively proven in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14).
And I'm resting my eternity on it.
 
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renniks

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Who made that rule?
Love is not perfect if it denies justice to anyone, if it denies anyone what he is owed, what he has earned.
Perfect love requires justice.
How can he earn it if he's made for it, and could not do anything else?
How is that justice?
 
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GenemZ

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IF our being trained in righteousness by harsh discipline Heb 12:5-11, brings us to understand that evil decisions must be rejected and only righteous options are to be chosen, then we will be doing the will of Christ BY OUR FREE WILL! What need is there for slavery to HIM if we know by our earthly experience just how important choosing righteousness is and how destructive choosing evil is to everything???

There are no married robots in the heavenly marriage, no Stepford wives. To insist there are and we are enslaved in heaven as we were enslaved to sin desecrates the whole meaning of HIS marriage to us based upon love...as no real marriage nor real love can be forced upon anyone as the meaning of enslaved implies.

We are not robots...

Nor, are all believers going to be willing to learn the lesson by harsh discipline.

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not
lead to death, you should pray and God will give them
life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that

you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and
there is sin that does not lead to death."
1 Jn 5:16-17
 
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GenemZ

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And, if I may add, cannot be brought to love and acceptance of HIM by their free will once they have seen the proof of HIS Deity and power since proof coerces choice and a free will decision cannot be coerced.

I had no clue that Jesus was also God until long after I got saved. Its not required to understand at the point of salvation.

I grew up a Jew and had near zero knowledge of Christian teachings. I simply saw and deeply appreciated the person of Jesus. I saw him a beautiful man who deeply loved God so much that He died for our sins, so we too could love God like He does....

That was the limit of how much I could grasp at the moment I accepted my belief in Jesus Christ. Ten years later someone pointed out John 1:1 and I instantly accepted it... Thanks to the Holy Spirit, I did.

grace and peace ........
 
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Mark Quayle

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I don't remember saying I was God, so I don't know what that has to do with the subject?
renniks said:
Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.


YOU, knowing something, is not the same as you causing something, I agree. But you are not God. If something is, God caused it, (and no, I am not saying he is the only cause of it, but he IS First Cause). And if God caused it, he, of course, knows it.
 
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GenemZ

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renniks said:
Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.


YOU, knowing something, is not the same as you causing something, I agree. But you are not God. If something is, God caused it, (and no, I am not saying he is the only cause of it, but he IS First Cause). And if God caused it, he, of course, knows it.


Thought is action in rehearsal.
 
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Clare73

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How can he earn it if he's made for it, and could not do anything else?
How is that justice?
It's not about earning it, it's about who/what he is--fallen, sinful, corrupt nature that prefers self to God--which is the cause of what he does, that makes him an enemy of God (Romans 5:10).
He was born with it as a son of Adam,
just as baby rattlesnakes are born poisonous because they are sons of rattlesnakes.

Their poison makes them a serious threat to animal and human life, so they get extinguished.
How can a baby rattlesnake earn extinction if he is made to be poisonous, and cannot do anything else?

It's not the baby rattlesnake's fault that he was born a rattlesnake.
Where's the justice?
 
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bbbbbbb

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I had no clue that Jesus was also God until long after I got saved. Its not required to understand at the point of salvation.

I grew up a Jew and had near zero knowledge of Christian teachings. I simply saw and deeply appreciated the person of Jesus. I saw him a beautiful man who deeply loved God so much that He died for our sins, so we too could love God like He does....

That was the limit of how much I could grasp at the moment I accepted my belief in Jesus Christ. Ten years later someone pointed out John 1:1 and I instantly accepted it... Thanks to the Holy Spirit, I did.

grace and peace ........

I think this is true of many such as yourself, and myself, who hardly grasped the totality of Christian doctrine when we committed ourselves to Jesus Christ. There is a fine line between what one must understand with the mind and what is not needed to comprehend in order to be saved. I am certain the thief on the cross only grasped one essential aspect - "Remember me when you come into your kingdom."
 
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GenemZ

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I think this is true of many such as yourself, and myself, who hardly grasped the totality of Christian doctrine when we committed ourselves to Jesus Christ. There is a fine line between what one must understand with the mind and what is not needed to comprehend in order to be saved. I am certain the thief on the cross only grasped one essential aspect - "Remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Many in the early days of the church who got saved did not yet understand that Jesus is God.
 
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renniks

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renniks said:
Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.


YOU, knowing something, is not the same as you causing something, I agree. But you are not God. If something is, God caused it, (and no, I am not saying he is the only cause of it, but he IS First Cause). And if God caused it, he, of course, knows it.
He would still know it if he doesn't cause it. So I'm still not seeing the point. I can know something I'm going to cause. That's not foreknowledge.
 
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renniks

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It's not about earning it, it's about who/what he is--fallen, sinful, corrupt nature that prefers self to God, an enemy of God (Romans 5:10).
He was born with it as a son of Adam,
just as baby rattlesnakes are born poisonous because they are born of a rattlesnake.

Their poison makes them a serious threat to animal and human life, so they extinguish them.
How can a baby rattlesnake earn being extinguished if he is made to be poisonous, and cannot do anything else?

It's not the baby rattlesnake's fault that he was born a rattlesnake.
Where's the justice?
It's not justice to kill a rattlesnake for no reason. They are killed because of what they will do. We can choose what we do. A snake can only be a snake. So, it's a ridiculous comparison. A rattlesnake can not become a sheep if he chooses to respond to God's grace. We can. And this offer is extended to every human.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thought is action in rehearsal.
God is not like us. We are only a little like God.

Thought, (perhaps for us), is action in rehearsal. But God, thinking it, saying it, and doing it —because he is first cause they are one. God doesn't have to figure out, consider and reject, 'come up with' a plan; he is not one of us, to do things like we do. His nature is such that there is, from his POV, no difference for us to say we are real because he thought of us, than it is to say he made us. God is not time dependent —we are.

Google "Divine Simplicity"
 
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Mark Quayle

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He would still know it if he doesn't cause it. So I'm still not seeing the point. I can know something I'm going to cause. That's not foreknowledge.
He even makes promises (threats) as to what he would do, let's say, to Ninevah, if they do not repent. He knows what he will do, if they do not repent. But they do repent, and he relents. To you, I expect, that means "he knew [what would happen] but did not cause it to happen". (Yes, I know you were thinking more in terms of things he does not cause, as though there is anything he does not cause), but just like in Jonah, he speaks all fact into being, including contingencies. He caused not only the threat to Ninevah to be real, but their repentance, too, by means of the threat and other things.

We've (you, others like you, and I) have spoken before of these things, where you suppose that God, in his Sovereignty, can set things up where undirected contingencies happen all the time. You don't want to say, 'chance', since, as I tell you, the notion of chance causing anything is self-contradictory, and you don't want to say it is not by chance, since that implies that some people are simply better than others, but regardless of how it comes to pass that some people choose what they do and others choose differently, (particularly noticeable concerning salvation), even your faulty scenario demonstrates God's causation of all things.
 
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It's not justice to kill a rattlesnake for no reason. They are killed because of what they will do. We can choose what we do. A snake can only be a snake. So, it's a ridiculous comparison. A rattlesnake can not become a sheep if he chooses to respond to God's grace. We can. And this offer is extended to every human.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Was it not you who, a few posts back, made a ridiculous comparison, as though, since you can know something without causing it, God can too? (#392)

But, regardless: A snake can only be a snake. And the lost can only be the lost. The viper can be changed to a garter snake, if God makes a few important adjustments to his DNA, (i.e., changes his nature). And the lost can be saved if God changes his heart and mind, i.e. changes his nature. Yes, the difference is that stark.
 
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Clare73

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He would still know it if he doesn't cause it. So I'm still not seeing the point.
I can know something I'm going to cause. That's not foreknowledge.
That is precisely what foreknowledge is in the Bible--God knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Foreknowledge is God knowing in advance of his works, not man's works.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known; then suddenly I acted and they came to pass."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

Acts 4:28 - "They did what your power and will decided beforehand should happen."

See Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17.
 
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It's not justice to kill a rattlesnake for no reason. They are killed because of what they will do.
Don't be dense.
Rattlesnakes are born the enemy of man, and we are born the enemy of God (Romans 5:10), both species because of who/what they are--sinful/poisonous, which is the cause of what they do--sin/poison.
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
 
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