Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

[renniks]

He even makes promises (threats) as to what he would do, let's say, to Ninevah, if they do not repent. He knows what he will do, if they do not repent. But they do repent, and he relents. To you, I expect, that means "he knew [what would happen] but did not cause it to happen". (Yes, I know you were thinking more in terms of things he does not cause, as though there is anything he does not cause), but just like in Jonah, he speaks all fact into being, including contingencies. He caused not only the threat to Ninevah to be real, but their repentance, too, by means of the threat and other things.

We've (you, others like you, and I) have spoken before of these things, where you suppose that God, in his Sovereignty, can set things up where undirected contingencies happen all the time. You don't want to say, 'chance', since, as I tell you, the notion of chance causing anything is self-contradictory, and you don't want to say it is not by chance, since that implies that some people are simply better than others, but regardless of how it comes to pass that some people choose what they do and others choose differently, (particularly noticeable concerning salvation), even your faulty scenario demonstrates God's causation of all things.

No it doesn't at all. You have never proven that God has to cause everything, you just claim it's true. You have God playing games with himself and people are just pawns he moves around for kicks. That's not the biblical picture of God. It's more like the Roman gods.

 

[renniks]

But, regardless: A snake can only be a snake. And the lost can only be the lost.

Not according to scripture .

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Not just some already chosen individuals that obviously could never be called lost.

 

[renniks]

Foreknowledge is God knowing in advance of his works, not man's works.

You limit God to only knowing what he causes? Wow, that's not even sovereignty. Calvinism has a weak little tiny god that can only know what he caused already. Anyone can do that.

 

[renniks]

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Enable doesn't equal cause. I'm enabled to do all kinds of things I don't do.

 

[renniks]

Don't be dense.
Rattlesnakes are born the enemy of man, and we are born the enemy of God (Romans 5:10), both species because of who/what they are--sinful/poisonous, which is the cause of what they do--sin/poison.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

We aren't created to be God's enemy.
We are made in his image.
And sin is something we chose to do not who we are.
You need to read the rest of what Paul says.

We don't have to remain in that place of enmity to God.

 

[TedT]

The viper can be changed to a garter snake, if God makes a few important adjustments to his DNA, (i.e., changes his nature). And the lost can be saved if God changes his heart and mind, i.e. changes his nature.

I must disagree. My Christian opinion is that ...
IF GOD gave us a free will as necessary to creating a proper marriage with us by our free will consent or rejection of HIS marriage proposal, then our decision by our free will to accept or reject HIS proposal MUST be sacrosanct or it has no absolute value as free.
sacrosanct:
(especially of a principle, place, or routine) regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with.
Similar: sacred, hallowed, respected, inviolable

If GOD can willy nilly change the results of our choice without our consent, then our choice may have been made by our free will but that free will was not honoured in the result.

Therefore, while HE can change the snake dna to remove his poison, the evil nature of the demons that resulted from a free will decision to repudiate YHWH as a liar and a fase god CANNOT be changed, but must remain inviolate.

Yes, this does imply that the sinful elect who can and do have their sinful natures changed by the Holy Spirit and Christ's redemptive work had to have first accepted Christ as their saviour (if they should ever need saving), asking Him to intervene in their sins, BEFORE their choice to become a evil in HIS eyes, giving John 3:18 a new pov.

Those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour but who later rebelled against HIS commands so as to become sinful could be saved by HIS grace but those who repudiated HIM as a liar and a false god and never put their faith in him had to be left in their sins because they irrevocably chose to be outside of HIS salvation and HIS heavenly marriage forever, considering these things to be all lies.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's not justice to kill a rattlesnake for no reason. They are killed because of what they will do. We can choose what we do. A snake can only be a snake. So, it's a ridiculous comparison. A rattlesnake can not become a sheep if he chooses to respond to God's grace. We can. And this offer is extended to every human.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Your sheep analogy is interesting. There are several schools of thought concerning the imagery of sheep and the shepherd(s) in the Bible.

The first is that God, the shepherd, created all of humanity as His sheep and, therefore, He will shepherd and save all of His sheep (humanity).

The second is that God, the shepherd, created all of humanity as His sheep, but they went astray so that only some are actually in His flock and those who are in His flock chose to join the flock (the church).

The third is that God, the shepherd, created all of humanity as His sheep, but they went astray so that only some are actually in His flock and those who are in His flock are there because he chose them to be in His flock (Israel as well as the church).

Using the final judgement described in Matthew 25 we have sheep and goats described, opening up several other possibilities, as follow:

1. All of humanity are born sheep, but some decide to become goats and, therefore, are condemned.

2. All of humanity are born goats, but some decide to become sheep and, therefore, are saved.

3. Some of humanity are born goats and some are born sheep and it is just as reasonable for one species to become another as it is for a rattlesnake to become a sheep.

a. Among those who are born sheep, some are in Jesus' flock and some are not (see above).

b. All who are born sheep remain Christ's sheep and cannot change their identity.

4. All of humanity are born sheep, but God decides to transform some into goats along the way.

5. All of humanity are born goats, but God decides to transform some into sheep along the way.

 

[Clare73]

You limit God to only knowing what he causes?

Take it up with Paul, Peter, John and Isaiah, they are the ones who do so.
Your issue is with the Scriptures, not me.
You either believe them or you don't. . .I do.

a weak little tiny god that can only know what he caused already. Anyone can do that.

Tell it to Peter, Paul, John and Isaiah.

They show that in Biblical usage, "God's foreknowledge "is of his actions, not men's actions.
That was Biblically demonstrated with 10 Scriptures. . .don't be dense.

 

[Clare73]

Enable doesn't equal cause. I'm enabled to do all kinds of things I don't do.

Agreed. . .enable does not mean cause, come also does not mean go, nor does up mean down.
Irrelevant. . .

 

[Clare73]

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
We are made in his image.

And "the rest of the story"?
A half truth is an untruth.

And sin is something we chose to do not who we are.
You need to read the rest of what Paul says.

Evidently reading it and understanding it are two different things.

We don't have to remain in that place of enmity to God.

So we are his enemies after all. . .

 

[GenemZ]

renniks said: ↑
Knowledge and causing is two different things. I can know what someone will do without causing it in any way.

YOU, knowing something, is not the same as you causing something, I agree. But you are not God. If something is, God caused it, (and no, I am not saying he is the only cause of it, but he IS First Cause). And if God caused it, he, of course, knows it.

The Greek differentiates what type of knowledge the "knowledge" is.

Gnosis = knowledge that is acknowledged on a learned academic level. Its the type of knowledge was are warned against - "Knowledge puffs up."

Then there is a knowledge that Paul coined the term "Epignosis."

This knowledge is knowledge that the Holy Spirit gives us life and power in our understanding. Its like food eaten that become assimilated into our body giving us sustenance. Gnosis is like food on the shelf.

 

[GenemZ]

God is not like us. We are only a little like God.

Thought, (perhaps for us), is action in rehearsal. But God, thinking it, saying it, and doing it —because he is first cause they are one. God doesn't have to figure out, consider and reject, 'come up with' a plan; he is not one of us, to do things like we do. His nature is such that there is, from his POV, no difference for us to say we are real because he thought of us, than it is to say he made us. God is not time dependent —we are.

Google "Divine Simplicity"

When walking in the Spirit and Truth we "adapt" to God....

 

[GenemZ]

But, regardless: A snake can only be a snake. And the lost can only be the lost.

The lost can only be lost?
Were you not lost before you were found and saved?

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Lk 19:10​

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not only does it make debate a lot less frustrating, but if terms can be defined before the argument begins, I've noticed, the debate doesn't usually continue as long.

Free Will, as usually addressed in old Reformed circles, had to do with the bondage of the will of the unregenerate --not what usually gets fought over nowadays: the ability of persons to make undirected spontaneous decisions.

What your defining here is regeneration not free will.

 

[renniks]

And "the rest of the story"?
A half truth is an untruth.

Evidently reading it and understanding it are two different things.

So we are his enemies after all. . .

Only if we choose to be.

 

[renniks]

And "the rest of the story"

The rest of the story is man's rebellion and God's response. In Calvinism it's just God playing games, but in scripture God is genuinely grieved by people's actions...a God who arranged everything before hand could certainly not be grieved by what he caused to happen. And within that story are many stories of people who were declared righteous because they chose to obey.

 

[Clare73]

Only if we choose to be.

Reading and understanding Romans 5:10; Colossians 1:21 are two different things.

 

[Clare73]

The rest of the story is man's rebellion and God's response. In Calvinism it's just God playing games, but in scripture God is genuinely grieved by people's actions...a God who arranged everything before hand could certainly not be grieved by what he caused to happen. And within that story are many stories of people who were declared righteous because they chose to obey.

There's a lot of mixture here of things that aren't the same.

 

[renniks]

Take it up with Paul, Peter, John and Isaiah, they are the ones who do so.
Your issue is with the Scriptures, not me.

I can find nothing in scripture saying God only knows the future that he causes.

"Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite."

"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

The only way to interpret these that way is to assume God does everything which isn't biblical.

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Calvinism is a weird interpretation that has to be taught. People don't naturally get it from scripture.

 

[renniks]

There's a lot of mixture here of things that aren't the same.

Because reality is complicated. It's not just " God done it "