Are these points held by proponents of critical race theory (CRT)?

[The Barbarian]

So according to CRT theorists, we should be focused on race ?

No, that's pretty much what opponents of CRT are saying. The idea that we can do better by superficially ignoring the issue of race, has pretty much been debunked by reality.

Better to be aware of it and of the ways that society, often unconsciously, perpetuates racism.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ok, that’s what you think. In that case you should be able to argue why you think that. Why do you think that the legal and social systems of the US have dealt with all people equally.

In many cases in the past, they didn't.

But CRT today does nothing to rectify that, but cause to divide us further.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, that's pretty much what opponents of CRT are saying. The idea that we can do better by superficially ignoring the issue of race, has pretty much been debunked by reality.

Better to be aware of it and of the ways that society, often unconsciously, perpetuates racism.

But the statement on CRT says as I posted from the article...."The theory rests on the premise that racial bias - intentional or not - is baked into U.S. laws and institutions."

Again, it's "theory," not necessarily fact.

 

[The Barbarian]

In many cases in the past, they didn't.

But CRT today does nothing to rectify that, but cause to divide us further.

I don't see how being aware of the ways that racism (such as the demonstrated bias of police toward stopping black motorists, even though white motorists are more often found with contraband) is built into our society "divides us further."

Seems to me that being aware of these issues is a first step to changing them. Which may be why a minority of politicians is so loudly outraged by the theory.

 

[The Barbarian]

Again, it's "theory," not necessarily fact.

A theory is an idea or group of ideas that has been tested and found to be supported by evidence. Structural racism is a fact. CRT is a theory that explains it.

 

[Tom 1]

But CRT today does nothing to rectify that, but cause to divide us further.

Ok, once again - why do you think that? What do you mean exactly? CRT isn’t a homogenous ‘thing’ that is either right or wrong. What aspect or aspects of it do you agree with, exactly , and why.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ok, once again - why do you think that?

Look at the division in this forum on CRT.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

A theory is an idea or group of ideas that has been tested and found to be supported by evidence. Structural racism is a fact. CRT is a theory that explains it.

The evidence can be misunderstood or blatantly false and being CRT is being used
for political purposes, it's often false.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Here's an interesting read on the subject. The author gives a good explanation
on why CRT is misunderstood.

What Is Critical Race Theory, and Why Is It Under Attack?

 

[Tom 1]

Ok, once again - why do you think that?

Look at the division in this forum on CRT.

The division is between people who have actually attempted to understand what it is, by reading CRT theorists, and those who make assertions about what it means, but when pressed can’t explain why and can’t be bothered to find out.

 

[Tom 1]

Here's an interesting read on the subject. The author gives a good explanation
on why CRT is misunderstood.

What Is Critical Race Theory, and Why Is It Under Attack?

Interesting article. I don't think it's mainly about why people don't understand CRT tho.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I just heard of the following: Critical race theory debate heating up in Ohio General Assembly.

Do proponents of critical race theory (CRT) support the following statements, statements the bill would ban schools from promoting?

• One race or sex is inherently superior to another race or sex
• An individual, by virtue of the individual's race or sex, is inherently racist, sexist or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously
• An individual should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly because of the individual's race
• An individual's moral standing or worth is necessarily determined by the individual's race or sex
• An individual, by virtue of the individual's race or sex, bears responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex
• The advent of slavery in the territory that is now the United States constituted the true founding of the United States
• With respect to their relationship to American values, slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of or failures to live up to the authentic founding principles of the United States, which include liberty and equality.

I'm trying to learn more about what critical race theory is. I welcome answers from anyone but would prefer answers from proponents of CRT. Thank you!

From my understanding, 2,5,6 and possibly 7 but I wouldn't quite word it that way. From what I've seen, they more so believe that racism was a founding principle of the U.S.A.

 

[Tom 1]

From my understanding, 2,5,6 and possibly 7 but I wouldn't quite word it that way. From what I've seen, they more so believe that racism was a founding principle of the U.S.A.

Racism is inherent to US history, of course it is. The whole business of colonising Africa and the Americas was a racist undertaking. The natives were treated as less human than Europeans. Without the racist ideas used to justify slavery and mass killing colonisation would not have happened, hence no America. Are you saying that there are people who claim that isn’t the case?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Racism is inherent to US history, of course it is. The whole business of colonising Africa and the Americas was a racist undertaking. The natives were treated as less human than Europeans. Without the racist ideas used to justify slavery and mass killing colonisation would not have happened, hence no America. Are you saying that there are people who claim that isn’t the case?

Did they go there with the thought of, "Ok, if these people are anything but white, we're enslaving them, taking their land and resources!" No...back then, it was all about the land and resources. That's what they were after. Unfortunately, slave labor was a thing that existed from the dawn of time and it was completely normal for them. It even still exists today in countries like North Korea and various countries in Africa enslaving their own people sadly. Race had nothing to do with them taking over and colonizing lands. It was all about who had the most land and the most resources.

 

[Tom 1]

Did they go there with the thought of, "Ok, if these people are anything but white, we're enslaving them, taking their land and resources!" No...back then, it was all about the land and resources. That's what they were after. Unfortunately, slave labor was a thing that existed from the dawn of time and it was completely normal for them. It even still exists today in countries like North Korea and various countries in Africa enslaving their own people sadly. Race had nothing to do with them taking over and colonizing lands. It was all about who had the most land and the most resources.

Actually there was a whole process of justifying the enslavement and maltreatment of native peoples in the political and religious spheres. People didn't just pitch up and say 'oh lets use these people as farm animals, and kill those other ones so we can have their land', these were activities that were sanctioned and justified through the legal and religious bodies of the time, backed up with scripture and popular psuedo science.

Isn't any of this taught in history classes over there? Is this the kind of basic thing states are trying to ban from classrooms?

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Actually there was a whole process of justifying the enslavement and maltreatment of native peoples in the political and religious spheres. People didn't just pitch up and say 'oh lets use these people as farm animals, and kill those other ones so we can have their land', these were activities that were sanctioned and justified through the legal and religious bodies of the time, backed up with scripture and popular psuedo science.

Isn't any of this taught in history classes over there? Is this the kind of basic thing states are trying to ban from classrooms?

I guess we just have different definitions of what racism is. You seem to think that because the inhabitants were a different color that automatically makes it racist whereas I believe that racism is an intent to do something based solely on the color of one's skin. Again, the object of invading, colonizing, conquering wasn't to just enslave everyone because they weren't the right skin color. The object was to gain lands and resources.

 

[The Barbarian]

Actually it's being brought into the elementary school systems which parents are
attending School Board Meetings and rejecting it.

Can you show us a public school system that actually teaches CRT? I've looked and other than a few high schools that offer college credit for seniors, it's not there. What have you found?

Are they wrong to reject teaching children that our system is built on racism ?

From the start, it was that way. Remember, the founders O.K.'ed slavery and decided that slaves were a fraction of a white person.

Racism as late as WWII was the law for federal offices and the military. It was locked into the structure of our laws and government. Into the 70s, racism was the law in many states. So there is that.

Yes, conservatives don't want to talk about it, now, but it's a fact of our history.

Hiding it will do no good. Lying to children is always a bad idea.

 

[The Barbarian]

I guess we just have different definitions of what racism is. You seem to think that because the inhabitants were a different color that automatically makes it racist whereas I believe that racism is an intent to do something based solely on the color of one's skin.

Deciding that only black people could be slaves, and that native Americans had no right to property they owned, does amount to racism, yes. Lying to kids about these things is a bad idea.

 

[Tom 1]

I guess we just have different definitions of what racism is. You seem to think that because the inhabitants were a different color that automatically makes it racist whereas I believe that racism is an intent to do something based solely on the color of one's skin. Again, the object of invading, colonizing, conquering wasn't to just enslave everyone because they weren't the right skin color. The object was to gain lands and resources.

The whole history of colonisation and slavery is nothing like as simple as you appear to think. This kind of simplisitic notion, if this is how the period of colonisation of the Americas is taught in schools there, might help to explain why people are so resistant to basic factual teaching about US history.

I can't square your version with adult thinking - no offence but it comes across as the thinking of a small child. Slavery and genocide didn't just happen - even the more aggressive conquistadors had to go through a lengthy process of obtaining sanctions for the enslavement and mass slaughter of the natives in Aztec nations from the Spanish court, which in turn had to wait for the church to come up with a 'holy' justification for it before they could give sanction. The process of classifying native peoples in Africa as sub-human and those in what is now Latin America as ignorant brutes who needed to be conquered for their own good took place before mass slavery and direct warfare were initiated.

As is true today also, countries don't act without first creating an air of propriety and justification. This notion that the colonisation of the US was all about plucky white folks staking out land and unfortunately some bad stuff just like happened too is completely false. It was an industrial, political enterprise based on the dismissal and use of 'lower races' whose humanity was either denied or treated as secondary to the land and profits to be gained.

 

[The Barbarian]

The evidence can be misunderstood or blatantly false and being CRT is being used for political purposes

Yes, it's blatantly misrepresented by the right, who often claim it means things it does not, and who pretend it's being taught in elementary and high schools.

it's often false.

That's how they made it into a boogeyman.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Actually there was a whole process of justifying the enslavement and maltreatment of native peoples in the political and religious spheres. People didn't just pitch up and say 'oh lets use these people as farm animals, and kill those other ones so we can have their land', these were activities that were sanctioned and justified through the legal and religious bodies of the time, backed up with scripture and popular psuedo science.

Isn't any of this taught in history classes over there? Is this the kind of basic thing states are trying to ban from classrooms?

Slavery existed in every culture in history and more whites were enslaved in the Middle East than blacks were in the US. Slavery still exists in some areas of the Middle East.

The US was not built on slavery as the poorest states were those where slavery was legal, which were in the south.

The Northern States were slavery was illegal was industrialized which contributed far more than the poor south.

If not for the Union which lost 300,000 fighting against the Confederates, slavery would continued far longer.