The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[bèlla]

Incel reminds me of ISIS because the attitude toward woman as property and entitlement-denied rings similar.

They're not looking for relationships. They want power and ownership.

And we don't want to understand them because of their association with violence, which engenders an understandable cutting off of empathy on our part. I do think deep down these people are lost souls. Not that that gets them off the hook.

Hearing the things they conceive is mind boggling. It reminds me of John Norman's Gor series. What they crave is a dystopian nightmare. It's so beyond the norm you're repulsed. You couldn't fathom it in your wildest dreams.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The common thread I think a reaction to dishonorable women. Hefner's reaction was to his wife's dishonor, but incels have reactions to women they haven't even met, take it beyond normal indignation, and eventually arrive in their proverbial basement of incel beliefs.

I don't think their beliefs about women actually have to do with their experiences with women.

There's far too many who admit they don't actually have any experiences with women. Not a kiss, not a hug, no relationship....nothing.

They develop the body dysmorphia, go online, start looking at who is saying similar things....then become part of these groups that commiserate their bitterness and turn the blame outwards.

It would seem silly to you and me to think that you're going to be rejected if you ask out a woman in person....if you've never actually asked out a woman in person.

These guys have grown up in an age where they talk to girls online, or try to talk to girls online, before they ever do it in person....because it's safer and the risk of rejection isn't face to face. The problem is that the girls they talk to have a very different experience in the online world....men compete with each for one female's attention. Women have the attention of many men at once and pick and choose who they want to give their attention to.

It's created some pretty messed up dynamics on at least 2 ends. Young men and older women. Young men that experience the online rejection frequently and consistently end up more damaged by the experience than we may realize. On the other end, you have these women who have gotten a significant amount of attention from 16-30....and they don't realize that a shift change tends to happen over the next 5 years. They may still get a lot of attention, but it's no longer men interested in long term relationships or marriage. They end up in a "where have all the good men gone" phase.

Obviously, it's not as dangerous as the young men but its probably not a picnic for those women. Since it's significantly later in their lives, and social media hasn't been around too long, it's a problem that's only starting to manifest recently. I got a feeling it's gonna be much bigger though.

 

[Yeshua John 3:16]

Bella

"How do you explain successful mating for unattractive men or those lacking wealth? Many find companions. That suggests there's other factors at work being overlooked for external reasons"

These are exceptions, because men are rich and famous or they are still school loves. Hypergamy is a fact, I can see it on the streets in my country, but there are exceptions. You will find exceptions in every aspect.

Being born an unattractive man is a real suffering, you will never even feel like this.

 

[Sketcher]

Incel reminds me of ISIS because the attitude toward woman as property and entitlement-denied rings similar.

And we don't want to understand them because of their association with violence, which engenders an understandable cutting off of empathy on our part. I do think deep down these people are lost souls. Not that that gets them off the hook.

Put an incel on the other side of the world, animate him with a particular brand of Islamism and put a rifle in his hand, and you essentially get low-level ISIS. They were able to speak to that part of those guys over there it seems.

 

[dzheremi]

Everyone needs to own their stuff. People dated before feminism and after it. Before #metoo and afterward. A woman's decision not to select a man as a companion or spouse can't be blamed on feminism. You can argue it influenced her. But the bottom line is choice.

If she doesn't want you she doesn't want you.

So many pages of replies looking for some ultimate philosophy or coherent worldview behind the 'incel' thing, and here it really is, in the above post. Women have choices, and if they don't choose you, that's just how it goes. Improve yourself and try again with someone else. Or don't and wallow in your being a big loser because some awful woman somewhere had the temerity to say no to you because you are a creepy weirdo, not the supreme gentleman that your twisted ego has convinced you that you are.

And I don't buy this whole "Oooo, life is soooo hard for ugly men!" thing. Lyle Lovett was married to Julia Roberts, remember? And Lyle Lovett looks like the love child of David Lynch and Ryan Stiles. This is hardly very unusual, since women will marry below them in the looks department for all kinds of mystifying reasons, like money, security, social status, or (shockingly, if you believe this incel garbage) the fact that they might just actually love the guy.

As an ex once put it to me during one of our more conciliatory moments (I had been lamenting stress and age-induced hair thinning), "I don't think that's really a problem in itself, for most women; I not only dated but married a short guy with a large and growing bald spot, and we were together for years!" (It's true; except for her infrequent outbreaks of dating me , they had been together for about 15 years total before they finally called it quits for good.)

I think it's the same thing for all of this stuff that makes these incel dorks so mad: you get the idea that because you're X, Y, and Z, and women have consistently expressed preferences for A, B, and C instead, that you're forever alone and women are all heartless ice queens unwilling or biologically unable to look past all that and see the 'real' you (and of course then choose you, because you're just so undeniably awesome). That narrative is incredibly stupid and self-defeating because it basically enslaves you to considering first and foremost your least desirable qualities, rather than amplifying your good qualities and working on what can be worked on (and I'm aware the number of things in this category is not likely to be as many as you'd hope, but it's also not going to be zero). So it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy in the sense that you get rejected because 'women only want Chads' or whatever, when in reality you were probably projecting a very off-putting sullenness that 99.999% of women (and men, and children, and puppies, etc.) wouldn't want in their orbit for anything, because it's so caustic and awful.

And so you too have a choice: feel ugly and as a result be ugly, or feel like you can at least try and maybe something good may come of it, if not romantically at least in your own conception of yourself. And that's much better, because romantic partners may come and go, but you'll always have you, so not being filled with self-hatred (that is a fertile breeding ground for hating others, and hence remaining alone) is pretty important.

 

[Yeshua John 3:16]

On a website in my country, I know the inceli group and there are many good guys who would like true mutual love, but they don't stand a chance because of their appearance. There are also some people who are crazy and constantly feel misogynist from them, this hatred of women, in them it is already a mental illness and a strong one at that. It is foolish to throw all incels into one bag.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They're not looking for relationships. They want power and ownership.



Hearing the things they conceive is mind boggling. It reminds of John Norman's Gor series. What they crave is a dystopian nightmare. It's so beyond the norm you're repulsed. You couldn't fathom it in your wildest dreams.

The articles about this stuff that spring up post-shootings tend to be written to generate outrage. I don't think you have a good idea of what the mainstream of the group is like. Most are just painfully shy, or autistic, or dealing with anxiety or depression disorders.

The sort of extremely psychotic narcissistic people who end up doing the shootings are rare.

 

[Sketcher]

Everyone needs to own their stuff.

Definitely agreed here. Much of what drives the manosphere is the observation and perception of women not owning their stuff. There are many men in the manosphere who don't on their stuff either, but there are also men that do. The manosphere is a big tent.

Incels digest supremacist and PUA rhetoric. They can't act it out. But they parrot it nonetheless.

PUA is the polar opposite of the incels. PUAs don't want guys to have given up on getting sexual attention because that's bad for business. They really don't want men to choose celibacy either, because that's really bad for business.

I'm not blaming the manosphere for their behavior. They're responsible for their actions.

That's good. A believable gripe is that those in the media are sympathetic to feminism, and anything critical of feminism is bad, and incel violence is all the proof they need to go after the manosphere as a whole. Kind of like "because an abortion clinic got bombed, the whole pro-life movement is bad" but more intense even than that. It makes sense. You might make the distinction, but I'm not convinced the author of the article you posted does. Maybe he does, maybe not.

 

[bèlla]

These are exceptions, because men are rich and famous or they are still school loves. Hypergamy is a fact, I can see it on the streets in my country, but there are exceptions. You will find exceptions in every aspect.

Being born an unattractive man is a real suffering, you will never even feel like this.

Hypergamy exists. But the majority aren't moneyed. They're middle class. And most aren't 8 to 10s.

How are people outside those demographics finding partners? The numbers aren't adding up.

 

[bèlla]

I don't think you have a good idea of what the mainstream of the group is like. Most are just painfully shy, or autistic, or dealing with anxiety or depression disorders.

I've interacted with one in the past. He isn't a killer—I don't think—He fancies rape and imprisonment. He feels men are supreme and women are property. Unfortunately, he has a lot of confused souls listening to him. He's intelligent and writes well. A pied piper. He's not the one you're describing. But he's crazy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hey Ana, I don't see your comments.

I think I hit the post reply button too soon lol. It's an old phone. Sorry.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've interacted with one in the past. He isn't a killer—I don't think—He fancies rape and imprisonment. He feels men are supreme and women are property. Unfortunately, he has a lot of confused souls listening to him. He's intelligent and writes well. A pied piper. He's not the one you're describing. But he's crazy.

Well fair enough, I'm certainly not going to discount your personal experience.

 

[bèlla]

Much of what drives the manosphere is the observation and perception of women not owning their stuff. There are many men in the manosphere who don't on their stuff either, but there are also men that do. The manosphere is a big tent.

I spent a lot of years around men of that stripe along the scale. Back in the mailing group and iRC days. This is what I know. Exemplary men don't have time for that. They're making their mark on the world. Not listening to disgruntled people on the Internet. I met one a few years ago and asked him about all of that. I've posed the question to others too.

If you look hard enough you'll find an excuse or a bandwagon to climb on. Everybody's got something working against them. But every one doesn't spend time dwelling on it. Men who can't make their mark in the world place a greater primacy on relationships than those who can. He's trying to prove his manhood to her because the world isn't validating it.

But when that isn't the case you get a healthy man who's balanced and knows his place. He isn't trying to get a woman to give him what he should obtain in society. He's got nothing to prove. He's already done it.

There's too much blame and whining. We need to do some housekeeping and soul searching and get ourselves together. The problem exists within.

 

[bèlla]

Well fair enough, I'm certainly not going to discount your personal experience.

Ana, I think there are people like you've described in that group. He's a Svengali and they gravitate to him. He's got the personality to draw them in. Listening to someone who espouses the things he does is dangerous. He validates their dysfunction. You know where that leads.

 

[bèlla]

I think I hit the post reply button too soon lol. It's an old phone. Sorry.

No worries. I'm happy to see you here. I hope all is well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Bella

"How do you explain successful mating for unattractive men or those lacking wealth? Many find companions. That suggests there's other factors at work being overlooked for external reasons"

These are exceptions, because men are rich and famous or they are still school loves. Hypergamy is a fact, I can see it on the streets in my country, but there are exceptions. You will find exceptions in every aspect.

Being born an unattractive man is a real suffering, you will never even feel like this.

I think the sad part is that you really have to deal with that alone in society. Our society empathizes with women, children, men with families or important work....and that's about it. Young men and single men aren't considered worthy of our consideration.

Unless your claim is that you are being discriminated against unfairly (and it isn't even necessary to prove this to get a lot of empathy) no one will accept that your problem is indeed a problem. Relationship discrimination is looked at as completely valid, for any reason, and I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be.

From me to you though, I get it, and you have my sympathy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No worries. I'm happy to see you here. I hope all is well.

Well thank you bella.

 

[bèlla]

So many pages of replies looking for some ultimate philosophy or coherent worldview behind the 'incel' thing, and here it really is, in the above post.

No self-respecting woman will choose a man who hates her. You can't hide that. If you don't value and respect me there's nothing to discuss. On the flip side, I don't want a man who hates himself either.

Women have choices, and if they don't choose you, that's just how it goes. Improve yourself and try again with someone else.

You're not entitled to anyone. That applies to Christians too.

Or don't and wallow in your being a big loser because some awful woman somewhere had the temerity to say no to you because you are a creepy weirdo, not the supreme gentleman that your twisted ego has convinced you that you are.

I love your posts!

Some people overestimate their appeal. They're drinking the koolaid and skirting facts to promote a false narrative.

when in reality you were probably projecting a very off-putting sullenness that 99.999% of women (and men, and children, and puppies, etc.) wouldn't want in their orbit for anything, because it's so caustic and awful.

Preach!

And so you too have a choice: feel ugly and as a result be ugly, or feel like you can at least try and maybe something good may come of it, if not romantically at least in your own conception of yourself. And that's much better, because romantic partners may come and go, but you'll always have you, so not being filled with self-hatred (that is a fertile breeding ground for hating others, and hence remaining alone) is pretty important.

It all comes back to wholeness. You have to want to heal and move beyond the hurt and negativity to be in a place to attract someone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hypergamy exists. But the majority aren't moneyed. They're middle class. And most aren't 8 to 10s.

How are people outside those demographics finding partners? The numbers aren't adding up.

Well increasingly, they aren't finding partners. What is the divorce rate these days?

From the article I last linked....

A recent study of Tinder found that “the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men”.

Think about that...it's a situation that stinks for men now, but 80% of women can't end up with 20% of men. I think within 10 years or so there's going to be a significant number of women who will die alone.

Sure, some are going to "settle" and some men are going to be lonely enough to accept that....but I don't see those marriages lasting and divorce is increasingly unaffordable for the modern man. A lot of guys will just take advantage of that situation.

 

[bèlla]

I think the sad part is that you really have to deal with that alone in society. Our society empathizes with women, children, men with families or important work....and that's about it. Young men and single men aren't considered worthy of our consideration.

I agree. I posted the thread for reasons I haven't acknowledged. There's a lot of single men struggling and falling through the cracks. No one's asking questions or checking in.

Unless your claim is that you are being discriminated against unfairly (and it isn't even necessary to prove this to get a lot of empathy) no one will accept that your problem is indeed a problem. Relationship discrimination is looked at as completely valid, for any reason, and I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be.

True. A lot flies beneath the radar that should be addressed. Hopefully, this is a starting point.

From me to you though, I get it, and you have my sympathy.

Thank you.