The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[Sketcher]

I spent a lot of years around men of that stripe along the scale. Back in the mailing group and iRC days. This is what I know. Exemplary men don't have time for that. They're making their mark on the world. Not listening to disgruntled people on the Internet. I met one a few years ago and asked him about all of that. I've posed the question to others too.

I would add to that, they're probably not the ones monetizing the discontent; the PUAs really aren't great people to learn from, for instance.

However, the incels probably know they're not exemplary. If they're 1/10, and work hard, they might get to 5/10, but they won't be 10/10, and the message they get from women is that 5/10 isn't good enough to get true devotion. The American dream in terms of relationships, is perceived to be unattainable to them. They should put in the aforementioned work of course, but if that work is not a means to the end they want, then they would logically say that it doesn't work. They don't have something they can believe in.

 

[dzheremi]

The American dream in terms of relationships, is perceived to be unattainable to them.

Now this is an interesting idea. What do you mean by "the American dream in terms of relationships"? Is it the white picket fence, 2.5 children, and family dog ideal of white middle class suburbia, or something else?

I guess I've never thought of relationships as being geographically-specific in that way. I wonder if there's are corresponding African dreams, Indian dreams, Eurasian dreams, etc.? For sure these people must also have their own stereotypes of what to look for and how to behave and so on.

 

[Sketcher]

Now this is an interesting idea. What do you mean by "the American dream in terms of relationships"? Is it the white picket fence, 2.5 children, and family dog ideal of white middle class suburbia, or something else?

And a good wife who stays by your side. And the 2.5 kids are yours instead of some other guy's.

I guess I've never thought of relationships as being geographically-specific in that way. I wonder if there's are corresponding African dreams, Indian dreams, Eurasian dreams, etc.? For sure these people must also have their own stereotypes of what to look for and how to behave and so on.

I do not claim geographic exclusivity with what I said.

 

[dzheremi]

I do not claim geographic exclusivity with what I said.

That was awkwardly phrased on my part. Sorry. I meant not that they're geographically exclusive, but that Americans would have their dream relationships, Persians theirs, Mongolians theirs, etc. Obviously every people would also have relationships that don't fit whatever the mold is for their society, but I still find it interesting that there would be such a mold in the first place. I don't know...maybe the Mongolians pride themselves on having wives who are really good horse-riders, and uh...yurt-keepers, I guess.

 

[bèlla]

A recent study of Tinder found that “the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men”.

I believe that. I don't know how to balance the scales.

Think about that...it's a situation that stinks for men now, but 80% of women can't end up with 20% of men. I think within 10 years or so there's going to be a significant number of women who will die alone.

True. I know that demographic. Sometimes I've struggled with the realities of choice. And the fairness of it all. Being able to disregard a lot because you command certain suitors. I've questioned if I should have everything I want. I felt a lot of guilt for a time.

Sure, some are going to "settle" and some men are going to be lonely enough to accept that....but I don't see those marriages lasting and divorce is increasingly unaffordable for the modern man. A lot of guys will just take advantage of that situation.

I suspect marriage will be the realm of the few not the many.

 

[bèlla]

I would add to that, they're probably not the ones monetizing the discontent; the PUAs really aren't great people to learn from, for instance.

No they're not. Most people desire love and acceptance. They don't want to have to play a role or wear a mask. They want you to embrace them as-is.

However, the incels probably know they're not exemplary. If they're 1/10, and work hard, they might get to 5/10, but they won't be 10/10, and the message they get from women is that 5/10 isn't good enough to get true devotion.

Every woman can't make that statement. She's not coming to the table with qualities that will attract better suitors. She has to adjust her expectations as does he. But he doesn't want her. He wants someone above his pay grade. The likelihood of her saying yes is next to none.

The American dream in terms of relationships, is perceived to be unattainable to them. They should put in the aforementioned work of course, but if that work is not a means to the end they want, then they would logically say that it doesn't work. They don't have something they can believe in.

I've had men approach me who were utterly deluded. There's no way they imagined I'd say yes. Christian and secular. All they saw is what I could do for them. They were fantasizing.

 

[Sparagmos]

I don't really care about the specifics of incel attitudes. I'm talking about numbers. We obviously haven't had a major war since the boomers' generation and even that was relatively minor.

I was asking what the social problem you referred to was.

 

[angelsaroundme]

On one hand, they create fear in men that the women will cheat, use them for money, etc. On the other hand, they create fear in women that men will cheat, become violent, etc. I say fear, not because it never happens, but because it's not a guarantee. But the worry that it could can be enough to deter people. It's all working toward the same goal. Create distrust between men and women.

In depictions of the Garden of Eden we often see the snake between Adam and Eve. As if it was keeping them from each other. That adds an artistic layer or another interpretation to the story for me. That The Powers That Be want to separate men and women, as well as play them against each other.

 

[TheWhat?]

I was asking what the social problem you referred to was.

Firstly, it's helpful to digest the original argument and respond to points raised. I don't want to have to repeat myself.

Secondly, you might want to look into Renee Girard's scapegoat mechanism. If our culture dictates that the most optimal arrangement requires a shortage of males, then it follows we may experience symptoms of "dysfunction" in the absence of significant loss of male lives to incur that shortage. It follows that problems would be inclusive of the high incarceration rate I mentioned (real), an excess of single males at or below 30 (real), social mechanisms that are encouraging the likes of the incel movement, which in turn contribute toward the mass killings.

 

[Sparagmos]

We were born ugly and most women reject us because of what we look like, it's not our fault,

. There are just as many "unattractive" women. People who aren’t as attractive come to see that that’s not the important thing on a relationship, and generally pair up. I see couples every day who are not conventionally "attractive." I’m curious if you see that also? And what you think of women who are in your "league" as far as looks go?

any man who has difficulty interacting with women will be viewed by you as a criminal

. I’ve never seen or heard anyone react that way. Most people use the word awkward or shy, never criminal. Can you say more about why you think people see you as a criminal?

women nowadays have huge demands, and they have "themselves" to offer, funny.

. What kinds of demands? I agree that some women are shallow and expect too much. But they don’t get guys that way.

You will write "you can live alone, physical closeness and sex are not so important"

. I think they are important! Don’t give up on having those things in your life. Talk to women to understand them, and how to attract them.

This life is so unfair, why some are born so beautiful and others are so ugly, unfair it should not be so

. Yes, life is horribly unfair. But there are so many worse things than not being beautiful. Being a slave, being a victim of domestic abuse, suffering the loss of a child. Do you feel compassion for those people, or only sorry for yourself?

My brother is severely disabled and, frankly, not physically attractive at all. But he is kind and caring, and is married to a wonderful woman. He is not rich, in fact she makes more money than him. Why do you think he was able to attract her if looks is so important?

 

[Sparagmos]

Firstly, it's helpful to digest the original argument and respon

I had read all of the comments on the thread when I asked you to define the social problem you referred to. It wasn’t clear to me. If you don’t want to be bothered clarifying, then we can leave it at that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Looks like that's exactly what you said...

The great thing is that we live in space-time and I'm always allowed to qualify my statements within reason. So, I will do so.

But yeah. A pornified culture, along with its various products and 'services,' does lend itself to all kinds of relational (and psychological) dysfunctions. It's just that in our glorified sense of "Modern Liberty," we think we're doing well when we condone any personal relation that essentially subscribes to not much more than the notion of consent---as if that is ever enough all by itself.

They haven't been looking at "porn" but a "sexually lax" (whatever that means) "world culture" (whatever that means) and it's breeding resentment?

Yeah. I know. It's difficult to understand what the term "sexually lax" could possibly 'mean' in any substantive way when stated on a Christian Forum, isn't it?

We've talked about this stuff in the past, even if not in relation to the Incel Problem. So, come on, Ana. Don't act like this is the first time you've heard me say anything of this nature.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Years of research lol? Into what?

Ana, you always present this same kind of response when these related subjects come up. Why is that?

 

[Pommer]

What?
Some people aren’t happy that they didn’t get born into certifiable “10” bodies and lives?

Well, whopp-dee-do!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't think this stuff happens in a vaccum though.

If you're genuinely interested in solutions we'd have to consider a pretty wide range of causes...because I don't think it's realistically pinned down to one thing.

The reaction to this is pretty interesting though. I see articles that are basically the same thing every time. Look at these awful guys, they're a problem, what can we do about it?

Then it's forgotten about until the next killing.

I've seen people suggest labeling them terrorists....but I think that would be difficult. Their crimes are more accurately described as hate crimes. While I certainly don't have any problem with that...I don't see what it would fix. The nature of these crimes is overwhelmingly a murder-suicide. When they commit these crimes, they seem to be planning on not surviving them. There's no real punishment that's going to be a viable deterrent to someone at that point.

I think that realistically, this is a mental illness issue that is fairly new and because it's manifested in young men, nobody really cares to do anything about it or even really examine it.

Let's pretend that we were trying to figure it out. Let's set aside the myriad and bizarre beliefs that seem to change each time these articles are rewritten and focus on the common factors these incels have.

Factors like...

1. Body dysmorphia. They seem to have a very high rate of body dysmorphia that manifests much like any other body dysmorphia...a general hatred of their own appearance, an exaggerated sense of real and imagined flaws, an over importance placed on how these flaws affect their lives. I find it odd that when a girl has body dysmorphia like anorexia....we examine all aspects of society and try to figure out why this keeps happening in young women. When we have tens of thousands of young men with body dysmorphia....our response is basically "deal with it".

2. Suicide. This is rather obvious since those who end up killing others generally kill themselves, but also nearly every time I read one of these articles they mention the rather steep suicide rate of incels. There seems to be a far larger number who simply end their own lives than those who kill others first. I can only guess, but depression, anxiety, lack of any real personal relationships (even as friends with other men their age) and the body dysmorphia are probably all related factors here.

3. Self isolation. These guys don't get out much, don't have many real personal relationships, and this seems to be the gateway to these incel communities.

4. Delusional thinking. Articles seem to focus heavily on this as if it's all to blame for points 1, 2, and 3. I'm not so certain though...I think it could easily be a result of things like a lack of real relationships, self isolation, emotional and mental issues. I'm not going to go over the wide range of beliefs but I do think the commonality is a transfer of "blame" for their lives from themselves to others and an acceptance of a "victimhood" status. I don't think this should be a surprise to anyone...literally any group of people who are bitter, resentful, or otherwise feel rejected by society seem to don the mantle of victim these days.

If I had to pin the group down to a set a common characteristics (other than the one they identify themselves by) I think these 4 characteristics are probably the most commonly shared.

Now, if I were inclined to figure out what is causing this cluster of traits....there's going to be a lot I have to consider like...

Bad parenting- are too many parents letting their children spend too much time online either because they are a single parent or they are overly concerned about their child's safety, or both? Early childhood socialization is basically a necessity for the skills needed to deal with peers later. If children are being isolated earlier, it can lead to bullying later, earlier onset anxiety, depression, etc.

We're actually already aware of the detrimental effects of social media to young girls (it causes a significant increase in depression and anxiety) but I don't think we're fully aware of the impact on young boys. Is it possible that the lack of personal relationships is a result of maintaining the superficial online friendships that allow these isolated young men to avoid rejection in person?

How much do online social movements (which have a big presence on social media) influence these things? I can see how in the MeToo / Toxic Masculinity era a young man may believe that women want emotionally sensitive considerate men who never hit on them or flirt with them in a sexual manner. It won't take long for them to realize that those men, despite being described as idealistic by these two movements....are actually shunned by women in real life. Exactly what message are these boys getting?

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea, I don't think it's one thing....I think it's many. If we can figure out the causes I think it's fixable....but people would have to actually care about figuring these things out.

It may surprise you to know that I find this post of yours to be an acceptable summarization of some of the confluences that likely influence the development of an 'Incel' state of mind. But like a lot of social and psychological problems, there's more to this problem in each individual personal situation than just these factors alone. And from a Christian point of view, there's a few more at least.

 

[Sparagmos]

PUA is the polar opposite of the incels. PUAs don't want guys to have given up on getting sexual attention because that's bad for business.

But as Bella said, they share some of the same rhetoric, particularly about the nature of women.

 

[TheWhat?]

The great thing is that we live in space-time and I'm always allowed to qualify my statements within reason. So, I will do so.

But yeah. A pornified culture, along with its various products and 'services,' does lend itself to all kinds of relational (and psychological) dysfunctions. It's just that in our glorified sense of "Modern Liberty," we think we're doing well when we condone any personal relation that essentially subscribes to not much more than the notion of consent---as if that is ever enough all by itself.

Yeah. I know. It's difficult to understand what the term "sexually lax" could possibly 'mean' in any substantive way when stated on a Christian Forum, isn't it?

We've talked about this stuff in the past, even if not in relation to the Incel Problem. So, come on, Ana. Don't act like this is the first time you've heard me say anything of this nature.

I tried to read this but I walked away with "Hugh Hefner. Playboy bunnies. Incels. Porn. Bad, BAD men. "

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I tried to read this but I walked away with "Hugh Hefner. Playboy bunnies. Incels. Porn. Bad, BAD men. "

I'm glad you 'got' something out of it. Wonderful!!

 

[TheWhat?]

I'm glad you 'got' something out of it. Wonderful!!

It's called scapegoating. Rene Girard has an interesting way of spelling it out in a way that fits right into the Christus Victor theory of atonement.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's called scapegoating. Rene Girard has an interesting way of spelling it out in a way that fits right into the Christus Victor theory of atonement.

Scapegoating? Upon whom? I haven't scapegoated anyone just yet.

And you throw in the bonus of "The Christus Victor" theory of atonement? That's a nice, partialist theory, but I think that it's only that, partial in its value. And it has about zero relevance for this thread (other than the goat you're apparently dragging along by a leash and into this thread ... )