The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[bèlla]

Probably not completely. The incel propaganda could be targeted by regulating social media, which in all likelihood is the source of a lot of problems right now. But the people who snap and cross the line can be isolated persons. That would require changes on a level I don't think we're capable of.

Social media promotes ideals many long for. They're chasing rainbows for likes and faves.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't say that porn causes incel-ism.

Looks like that's exactly what you said...

I'm thinking the Incels exist because they've all been looking at porn

Please don't reduce my statements to a strawman of what I actually said. Not porn, but a more or less pornographically (and sexually lax) inclined "world culture" helps to breed various levels of resentment among men.

They haven't been looking at "porn" but a "sexually lax" (whatever that means) "world culture" (whatever that means) and it's breeding resentment?

 

[NBB]

Like all groups under the umbrella of online misogyny known as the “manosphere"

Was not the so called 'manosphere' a reaction to 'modern feminism/metoo' etc?

You didn't talk at all about how 'toxic' the 'feminist' side can get.

Also media adopted this trend of favouring 'feminist side' stories if you look closely.

None of this would happen in a less crazy society with christian values.

 

[Sketcher]

"Incel" is short for "involuntary celibate." Hefner built the playboy mansion.

Connect the dots for me because I'm not seeing the connection.

I don't think Hugh Hefner factors into this phenomenon very much. He wasn't what I or really anyone would call "celibate".

The common thread I think a reaction to dishonorable women. Hefner's reaction was to his wife's dishonor, but incels have reactions to women they haven't even met, take it beyond normal indignation, and eventually arrive in their proverbial basement of incel beliefs.

 

[bèlla]

Was not the so called 'manosphere' a reaction to 'modern feminism/metoo' etc?

The manosphere existed before #metoo.

You didn't talk at all about how 'toxic' the 'feminist' side can get.

The OP is not about feminists. It concerns incels as does the article. If you want to discuss female incels you can.

Also media adopted this trend of favouring 'feminist side' stories if you look closely.

I've had the displeasure of encountering one and I'm not a feminist.

None of this would happen in a less crazy society with christian values.

I agree.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The manosphere existed before #metoo.



The OP is not about feminists. It concerns incels as does the article. If you want to discuss female incels you can.



I've had the displeasure of encountering one and I'm not a feminist.



I agree.

I don't think this stuff happens in a vaccum though.

If you're genuinely interested in solutions we'd have to consider a pretty wide range of causes...because I don't think it's realistically pinned down to one thing.

The reaction to this is pretty interesting though. I see articles that are basically the same thing every time. Look at these awful guys, they're a problem, what can we do about it?

Then it's forgotten about until the next killing.

I've seen people suggest labeling them terrorists....but I think that would be difficult. Their crimes are more accurately described as hate crimes. While I certainly don't have any problem with that...I don't see what it would fix. The nature of these crimes is overwhelmingly a murder-suicide. When they commit these crimes, they seem to be planning on not surviving them. There's no real punishment that's going to be a viable deterrent to someone at that point.

I think that realistically, this is a mental illness issue that is fairly new and because it's manifested in young men, nobody really cares to do anything about it or even really examine it.

Let's pretend that we were trying to figure it out. Let's set aside the myriad and bizarre beliefs that seem to change each time these articles are rewritten and focus on the common factors these incels have.

Factors like...

1. Body dysmorphia. They seem to have a very high rate of body dysmorphia that manifests much like any other body dysmorphia...a general hatred of their own appearance, an exaggerated sense of real and imagined flaws, an over importance placed on how these flaws affect their lives. I find it odd that when a girl has body dysmorphia like anorexia....we examine all aspects of society and try to figure out why this keeps happening in young women. When we have tens of thousands of young men with body dysmorphia....our response is basically "deal with it".

2. Suicide. This is rather obvious since those who end up killing others generally kill themselves, but also nearly every time I read one of these articles they mention the rather steep suicide rate of incels. There seems to be a far larger number who simply end their own lives than those who kill others first. I can only guess, but depression, anxiety, lack of any real personal relationships (even as friends with other men their age) and the body dysmorphia are probably all related factors here.

3. Self isolation. These guys don't get out much, don't have many real personal relationships, and this seems to be the gateway to these incel communities.

4. Delusional thinking. Articles seem to focus heavily on this as if it's all to blame for points 1, 2, and 3. I'm not so certain though...I think it could easily be a result of things like a lack of real relationships, self isolation, emotional and mental issues. I'm not going to go over the wide range of beliefs but I do think the commonality is a transfer of "blame" for their lives from themselves to others and an acceptance of a "victimhood" status. I don't think this should be a surprise to anyone...literally any group of people who are bitter, resentful, or otherwise feel rejected by society seem to don the mantle of victim these days.

If I had to pin the group down to a set a common characteristics (other than the one they identify themselves by) I think these 4 characteristics are probably the most commonly shared.

Now, if I were inclined to figure out what is causing this cluster of traits....there's going to be a lot I have to consider like...

Bad parenting- are too many parents letting their children spend too much time online either because they are a single parent or they are overly concerned about their child's safety, or both? Early childhood socialization is basically a necessity for the skills needed to deal with peers later. If children are being isolated earlier, it can lead to bullying later, earlier onset anxiety, depression, etc.

We're actually already aware of the detrimental effects of social media to young girls (it causes a significant increase in depression and anxiety) but I don't think we're fully aware of the impact on young boys. Is it possible that the lack of personal relationships is a result of maintaining the superficial online friendships that allow these isolated young men to avoid rejection in person?

How much do online social movements (which have a big presence on social media) influence these things? I can see how in the MeToo / Toxic Masculinity era a young man may believe that women want emotionally sensitive considerate men who never hit on them or flirt with them in a sexual manner. It won't take long for them to realize that those men, despite being described as idealistic by these two movements....are actually shunned by women in real life. Exactly what message are these boys getting?

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea, I don't think it's one thing....I think it's many. If we can figure out the causes I think it's fixable....but people would have to actually care about figuring these things out.

 

[bekkilyn]

They don't seem to comprehend that if they just put in even a little bit of work to be a decent human being, they wouldn't have all of these issues, but that would be effort so it's obviously a no-go.

 

[Sketcher]

The manosphere existed before #metoo.

But not feminism. The manosphere seemed to have gotten a boost from #metoo since many in #metoo showed double standards, and it probably scared some guys away from dating, but most of the damage that motivated the manosphere is a result of broken families, which feminism greatly exacerbated.

The manosphere however, is not synonymous with incels. Incels within it are the least functional people in it. There's a term femcel, which describes female incels. If any exist, they would seem to be candidates for feminist spaces rather than the manosphere.

There's a range. If not all feminists are going to praise or imitate Lorena Bobbit, then it's not fair to blame what she did on feminism. Likewise, it would not be fair to blame violence against women on the manosphere.

 

[bèlla]

.

Hey Ana, I don't see your comments.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We're playing musical chairs on a higher plane. We know how the game goes. Not everyone gets a seat. The last man standing is the winner.

Here's some lingo:

Incels see women as either “Stacys,” who are hyperfeminine, attractive, and unattainable and who only date “Chads” (muscular, popular men who are presumed to sleep with lots of women), or “Beckys,” the “average” woman.

They've predetermined Chad is kingpin. Prior to the Internet, he wasn't an option for most—and still isn't honestly. The Internet offered access that was previously lacking. Chad gets more attention than ever. From his norm and the rest. He's the ideal.

Stacy only dates Chad and Becky wants him too. That creates a huge imbalance. Which people who use dating sites readily admit. The attention is slanted.

Nobody wants his chair. They'd rather lose than choose him. He's left out in the cold. His lone option are others like himself. He doesn't want her.

This is all about the haves and have nots. It rewards beauty and wealth. That's a smaller demographic. It always was. The people who would have been less selective years ago are pseudo Chad's and Stacy's. That's how you 'prove' yourself. Acquiring the unattainable.



I expect things to worsen before they improve. It's beyond us.

It's kind of like the story of that old goddess figure who would grant a person a wish, but it resulted in any desires or wishes that contradicted that wish to not be granted, resulting in a ruined world.

The concept of "only one person's wish can be granted" comes from this resonance ingrained within human nature.

There are solutions in the works, but they're so unorthodox in application - I doubt the church will be participating.

 

[bekkilyn]

No visible femcels in the feminist spaces I'm in. Real men don't need to be afraid of feminists.

 

[bèlla]

But not feminism. The manosphere seemed to have gotten a boost from #metoo since many in #metoo showed double standards, and it probably scared some guys away from dating, but most of the damage that motivated the manosphere is a result of broken families, which feminism greatly exacerbated.

Everyone needs to own their stuff. People dated before feminism and after it. Before #metoo and afterward. A woman's decision not to select a man as a companion or spouse can't be blamed on feminism. You can argue it influenced her. But the bottom line is choice.

If she doesn't want you she doesn't want you. The reverse holds true. You have the same options. You can stick anything in the blame slot. But the decision is personal. It relates to you. Something about you that ticks her boxes or turns her off. Pointing fingers doesn't diminish that.

The absence of reliance on the opposite sex for sustenance is a truth serum. There's a lot of people who married in the past who'd probably struggle now. Choices changed everything.

The manosphere however, is not synonymous with incels. Incels within it are the least functional people in it. There's a term femcel, which describes female incels. If any exist, they would seem to be candidates for feminist spaces rather than the manosphere.

Incels digest supremacist and PUA rhetoric. They can't act it out. But they parrot it nonetheless.

There's a range. If not all feminists are going to praise or imitate Lorena Bobbit, then it's not fair to blame what she did on feminism. Likewise, it would not be fair to blame violence against women on the manosphere.

I'm not blaming the manosphere for their behavior. They're responsible for their actions.

 

[NBB]

No visible femcels in the feminist spaces I'm in. Real men don't need to be afraid of feminists.

I think they are not afraid, they just try to totally avoid them for marriage if possible...

 

[bèlla]

There are solutions in the works, but they're so unorthodox in application - I doubt the church will be participating.

What solutions have you encountered?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What solutions have you encountered?

In my situation, I've encountered the source of the negative thoughts directly.

God has used my initial gift of tongues, and my obedience to pray to translate, to be able to communicate the gospel back to these thought masses.

Over time He has taught me to treat these thoughts as weeds in a garden, and also how to apply what is akin to natural pesticides.

Alas, the present pace of work is a little slow.

 

[Yeshua John 3:16]

We were born ugly and most women reject us because of what we look like, it's not our fault, that's how God the Father made us. Of course, due to a few exceptions to terrorists, any man who has difficulty interacting with women will be viewed by you as a criminal. I can describe myself as "incel" but not completely and it hurts, women nowadays have huge demands, and they have "themselves" to offer, funny. There are many inceli men in the world who "die alone", who have never known a woman physically, no one cares about them, and are close to killing themselves. You will write "you can live alone, physical closeness and sex are not so important" - If you are full, you will never understand the hungry. Men have a much harder life than women, and if a man is unattractive, it's over for him. This life is so unfair, why some are born so beautiful and others are so ugly, unfair it should not be so.

THIS IS IMPORTANT: incel = / = misogynist. Don't mix it up

I hope that Jesus will help me to survive somehow and He will end my life fairly soon, I don't want to see this world any longer, let God's wrath come to this world.

 

[durangodawood]

Why do you think that's the case?

Incel reminds me of ISIS because the attitude toward woman as property and entitlement-denied rings similar.

And we don't want to understand them because of their association with violence, which engenders an understandable cutting off of empathy on our part. I do think deep down these people are lost souls. Not that that gets them off the hook.

 

[bèlla]

We were born ugly and most women reject us because of what we look like, it's not our fault, that's how God the Father made us.

How do you explain successful mating for unattractive men or those lacking wealth? Many find companions. That suggests there's other factors at work being overlooked for external reasons.

Of course, due to a few exceptions to terrorists, any man who has difficulty interacting with women will be viewed by you as a criminal.

That doesn't make you a criminal. Breaking the law does.

I can describe myself as "incel" but not completely and it hurts, women nowadays have huge demands, and they have "themselves" to offer, funny.

What about the ones who don't? Are you considering them? Or setting your sites on unrealistic prospects.

Men have a much harder life than women, and if a man is unattractive, it's over for him. This life is so unfair, why some are born so beautiful and others are so ugly, unfair it should not be so.

Most women aren't into looks. They prefer money instead.

THIS IS IMPORTANT: incel = / = misogynist. Don't mix it up

The people described in the OP are misogynist. The ideologies they espouse are misogynist. They hate women.

I hope that Jesus will help me to survive somehow and He will end my life fairly soon, I don't want to see this world any longer, let God's wrath come to this world.

He won't answer that prayer and you know it. He expects you to look to Him for strength and healing. Not seek your demise.

 

[bèlla]

Over time He has taught me to treat these thoughts as weeds in a garden, and also how to apply what is akin to natural pesticides.

Alas, the present pace of work is a little slow.

Gosh, that's unpleasant. I'd never want to be in their heads or anyone else's. May the Lord give you strength for your assignment.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Gosh, that's unpleasant. I'd never want to be in their heads or anyone else's. May the Lord give you strength for your assignment.

Thank you, I need it.