David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Saint Steven]

The Lord did not teach it, St. Paul did not...

I don't buy that. But question the point of a potential argument about it.

 

[ozso]

You would trust a translation by a single, biased individual, rather than teams of experienced translators from different backgrounds striving to avoid bias?

The thing is the teams probably usually have to stay within certain acceptable margins. They are probably constrained by having to toe the line.

 

[ozso]

You prefer the pink unicorn?

You mean like the unicorns that exists in the Bible by way of the KJV team of translators?

 

[prodromos]

You mean like the unicorns that exists in the Bible by way of the KJV team of translators?

In the Greek Septuagint it is "μονοκέρωτος", "one horned", which incidentally is not the Greek word for "rhinoceros", or "wild ox" for that matter. Why do people have a problem with the Scriptures referring to mythical creatures?

 

[ozso]

In the Greek Septuagint it is "μονοκέρωτος", "one horned", which incidentally is not the Greek word for "rhinoceros", or "wild ox" for that matter. Why do people have a problem with the Scriptures referring to mythical creatures?

I was mostly trying to make a joke. I suppose people have a problem with the Bible referring to mythical creatures because the Bible isn't supposed to be mythology. It's "רְאֵמִים֙" "a wild ox" in Hebrew.

 

[Eftsoon]

I think for those of us who are Orthodox is that Hart is misrepresenting Orthodoxy with universalism ( some opinions might say an ultimate redemption). We will side with Protestants & Catholics who also reject universalism but a major concern for us is Hart attaching universalism to Orthodox Christianity.

Hart is not a theologian in the classical sense. I don't think that you have anything to fear. He has himself said that his field is religious studies, broadly speaking. He doesn't (As far as I know) claim to be speaking on behalf of Orthodoxy. Some of his work explores Hindu philosophy and gnosticism. He's a scholar of religions.

I see him as an academic scholar with ecunmenical proclivities.

 

[ozso]

I never thought of David Bentley Hart or Brad Jersak as completely representing Eastern Orthodox theology when writing/talking about UR. I just like them being EO. The same as I like Richard Rohr being Roman Catholic. I like it because I think it gives UR more depth than if all its proponents were progressive Protestants.

What astounded me the most from Greek Orthodoxy regarding salvation, was this presentation of the Orthodox view of salvation vs the Protestant view:

 

[ozso]

Ah yes, the ubiquitous quote from "Schaff-Herzog" presented as if it settles the matter once and for all. Unfortunately that is all there is to it, no, zero, none historical evidence supporting the claim.
Just because a scholar makes a claim that does not make it true. What is necessary is credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence. I have read the Schaff-Herzog article there is no evidence only the unsupported claim of a scholar.
Here is a link to the encyclopedia, try to prove me wrong.
Work info: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

That article calls it "the most comprehensive, detailed, and significant encyclopedia for the Christian religion in the English language." and a "powerful reference tool" so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.

Do you have any proof of your claim that there's "no, zero, none historical evidence supporting the claim" regarding the entry in the encyclopedia that you object to? I'm going to conclude you don't, since you only came up with an article that actually extolls the encyclopedia.

 

[Der Alte]

That article calls it a "powerful reference tool" so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.

It can be but IMHO not on this particular point because the author did not provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Just because a scholar says something historical did/did not happen that does not make it credible evidence.
We can usually trust scholars with credentials in a certain field but they can and often do have assumptions, presuppositions, biases.

 

[ozso]

It can be but IMHO not on this particular point because the author did not provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Just because a scholar says something historical did/did not happen that does not make it credible evidence.
We can usually trust scholars with credentials in a certain field but they can and often do have assumptions, presuppositions, biases.

Well so far regarding what you've said about this, I just have your claim regarding it. And you're a million miles away from appearing objective.

 

[ozso]

He wears his bias on his sleeve.

So do some of the detractors of universalism I see in threads like this.

 

[Der Alte]

And you're a million miles away from appearing objective.Well so far regarding what you've said about this, I just have your claim regarding it.

As if you are objective. The only reason you accept Herzog-Schaff without question, although they provided no, zero, none evidence, is solely because they support your assumptions/presuppositions but in post #588 you demand proof from me. You can't have it both ways amigo.

 

[Lukaris]

Hart is not a theologian in the classical sense. I don't think that you have anything to fear. He has himself said that his field is religious studies, broadly speaking. He doesn't (As far as I know) claim to be speaking on behalf of Orthodoxy. Some of his work explores Hindu philosophy and gnosticism. He's a scholar of religions.

I see him as an academic scholar with ecunmenical proclivities.

He deliberately puts his opinion in opposition to the fathers of our church. His approach is confrontational; he misrepresents Orthodox Christian faith.

David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall Be Saved: a Review and Rejoinder – No Other Foundation

 

[ozso]

As if you are objective. The only reason you accept Herzog-Schaff without question, although they provided no, zero, none evidence, is solely because they support your assumptions/presuppositions but in post #588 you demand proof from me. You can't have it both ways amigo.

You're wrong about that. As I've stated a few times before, I'm interested in UR because I've seen enough evidence to consider it a possiblity. But I still have plenty of questions. Now how about that proof?

 

[ozso]

He deliberately puts his opinion in opposition to the fathers of our church. His approach is confrontational; he misrepresents Orthodox Christian faith.

David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall Be Saved: a Review and Rejoinder – No Other Foundation

According to that reviewer's opinion, right?

 

[prodromos]

It's "רְאֵמִים֙" "a wild ox" in Hebrew.

Why didn't the Greek speaking Jews who translated the Torah use the Greek term for "wild ox" then? Greek has a huge vocabulary, four times the vocabulary of Latin, so it's not as if they didn't have a word or expression to accurated convey the meaning of the Hebrew. When did modern scholarship determine that it means "wild ox"?

 

[prodromos]

According to that reviewer's opinion, right?

Universalism is condemned by the Councils of the Church, so not just in that reviewer's opinion.

 

[ozso]

Why didn't the Greek speaking Jews who translated the Torah use the Greek term for "wild ox" then? Greek has a huge vocabulary, four times the vocabulary of Latin, so it's not as if they didn't have a word or expression to accurate convey the meaning of the Hebrew. When did modern scholarship determine that it means "wild ox"?

I have no idea. I just went straight to the Hebrew. "Strong as an ox" is certainly a familiar term.

 

[ozso]

Universalism is condemned by the Councils of the Church, so not just in that reviewer's opinion.

That sounds like there's no way to expect any kind of impartiality.

 

[prodromos]

That sounds like there's no way to expect any kind of impartiality.

We are exhorted to hold fast to the traditions handed down by the Apostles, not to believe whatever happens to be the flavor of the month