Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

[Subduction Zone]

It's in that paper you won't read.

No, I am pretty sure that it was not in the paper. But then you cannot even copy and paste your own articles.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

But just in case:

Evolution: Watching Speciation Occur | Observations

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/100201_speciation

Observed Instances of Speciation

Do I need to post more?

You need to post one example which identifies the selection conditions and mutations required for adaptation. Post a single example that shows that DNA microevolutionary adaptation works any different than the math I've presented, not all this garbage about speciation. Of course, changing the subject from microevolution/macroevolution is your specialty.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

Once again you do not understand the concept of scientific evidence.

Did I mention experiments?

Ah! Scientific evidence without experiment, that's called pseudo-science.

 

[Alan Kleinman]

No, I am pretty sure that it was not in the paper. But then you cannot even copy and paste your own articles.

Pretty sure?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Trivial but correct. That's why it accurately predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before the experiment was performed.

And are you ever going to answer Phred's question that he asked you several pages back? His question is in post #1167.

You're so worried about my interactions with another poster. Instead of answering his question, I'll ask it of the person that *should* be responsible for the defense of it -- you.

How *does* your model fit the data? Do you have a specific plot we should examine to show how your model fits the experimental data? (Either for drug resistance or the Lenski-type experiments.)

 

[Phred]

And are you ever going to answer Phred's question that he asked you several pages back? His question is in post #1167.

What was that about being a bore?

 

[Phred]

Ah! Scientific evidence without experiment, that's called pseudo-science.

Wanna bet?

 

[Alan Kleinman]

You're so worried about my interactions with another poster. Instead of answering his question, I'll ask it of the person that *should* be responsible for the defense of it -- you.

He didn't ask me, he asked you.

How *does* your model fit the data? Do you have a specific plot we should examine to show how your model fits the experimental data? (Either for drug resistance or the Lenski-type experiments.)

I plotted the curves for both. For the Kishony experiment, the probability curve for an adaptive beneficial mutation occurring can be found here:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Figure 1 gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring at any evolutionary step for a single selection pressure evolutionary process. A beneficial mutation rate of 1e-9 (the powder blue curve) and a number of replications of 1e9 give a probability of the adaptive (beneficial) mutation P(X)=0.6. When the population size is around 4e9, that probability goes to about 1.

And for the Lenski experiment, you will find the probability of adaptation and fixation curves in this paper.
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
Figure 1 from that paper has 3 curves that cover 1 cycle of fixation and adaptation from the Lenski experiment. The top curve gives the total population, the population of the most fit variant, and the population of the less fit variants as a function of generation. The second curve gives the total number of replications of the most fit variant (the variant which is the candidate for the next adaptive mutation) as a function of generation, and the third (bottom) curve gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring on a member of the most fit variant again as a function of generation.

 

[Phred]

.

So if macroevolution doesn't exist then please explain to your adoring audience how the diversity of life on earth came to be.

 

[Hans Blaster]

He didn't ask me, he asked you.

Good grief.

I plotted the curves for both. For the Kishony experiment, the probability curve for an adaptive beneficial mutation occurring can be found here:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Figure 1 gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring at any evolutionary step for a single selection pressure evolutionary process. A beneficial mutation rate of 1e-9 (the powder blue curve) and a number of replications of 1e9 give a probability of the adaptive (beneficial) mutation P(X)=0.6. When the population size is around 4e9, that probability goes to about 1.

There is no data in that figure, only plots of the model for various values of the parameters of the model. In fact, there is no data in the entire paper. It is just a presentation of the model and some justification. What was it you said about not having experiments? (And you were wrong about that too.)

And for the Lenski experiment, you will find the probability of adaptation and fixation curves in this paper.
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
Figure 1 from that paper has 3 curves that cover 1 cycle of fixation and adaptation from the Lenski experiment. The top curve gives the total population, the population of the most fit variant, and the population of the less fit variants as a function of generation. The second curve gives the total number of replications of the most fit variant (the variant which is the candidate for the next adaptive mutation) as a function of generation, and the third (bottom) curve gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring on a member of the most fit variant again as a function of generation.

Again your paper is pure model. You construct a model with properties similar to those of Lenski-type experiments and then show how fixation occurs in you mode, but I see no actual reference to the time-to-fixation data from any of those experiments made in comparison *to* your model.

I see models that *could* be used to explain data, but are not actually applied.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

He didn't ask me, he asked you.



I plotted the curves for both. For the Kishony experiment, the probability curve for an adaptive beneficial mutation occurring can be found here:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
Figure 1 gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring at any evolutionary step for a single selection pressure evolutionary process. A beneficial mutation rate of 1e-9 (the powder blue curve) and a number of replications of 1e9 give a probability of the adaptive (beneficial) mutation P(X)=0.6. When the population size is around 4e9, that probability goes to about 1.

And for the Lenski experiment, you will find the probability of adaptation and fixation curves in this paper.
Fixation and Adaptation in the Lenski E. coli Long Term Evolution Experiment
Figure 1 from that paper has 3 curves that cover 1 cycle of fixation and adaptation from the Lenski experiment. The top curve gives the total population, the population of the most fit variant, and the population of the less fit variants as a function of generation. The second curve gives the total number of replications of the most fit variant (the variant which is the candidate for the next adaptive mutation) as a function of generation, and the third (bottom) curve gives the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring on a member of the most fit variant again as a function of generation.

These are not experiments, all of the plots are just plots of your derived equations without any evidence of their connection to reality.

ETA, Hans, you beat me to it while I was looking for a link to some data which obviously doesn't exist.

 

[tas8831]

Asking you not to write a prescription for antibiotics to someone with a cold will endanger someone with septicemia how exactly? Or are you saying you're unable to tell the difference?

You know giving birth is the third most expensive hospitalization in the US. Perhaps you've been prescribing antibiotics when they just needed to go give birth.

9 whole months at this prestigious university...
September 1988 - June 1989

The American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine
Field of study

• Medicine

 

[tas8831]

Definition of MACRO

You are not going to get reptiles evolving into birds and fish evolving into mammals by microevolution. The multiplication rule of probabilities requires far too large populations for this kind of genetic transformation.

Useful because it shows the shallowness with which you approach the issue. Bare assertions are not impressive.

 

[tas8831]

" My math has been examined by experts in probability theory. "

Hmmm.... Maybe it was Dembski?

I would like to check the general reputation of the journal that he used more than once. It appears to be just another example of the vanity press.

And it looks like most of his citations are by himself.
According to his ResearchGate bio, he has 12 pubs with 17 citations (first pub in 2014 - weird as he got his engineering degree in 1981 - I'm assuming PhD as he was there for like 6 years - and no engineering pubs...). I haven't published in a long time, but my first paper as a grad student has more than 100 citations.

In other words it is merely a pay to publish site.

Yeah... this one seems more like a David Abel than a legitimate researcher.

 

[tas8831]

Horton is already confused.​

Give it a rest. Nobody cares.​

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

9 whole months at this prestigious university...
September 1988 - June 1989

The American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine
Field of study

• Medicine

Dr. Alan Kleinman, MD, Family Medicine Specialist - Merced, CA | Sharecare

Went to an urgent care facility once, Dr. diagnosed gout, nurse said it looked like arthritis. Went home and looked up both, definitely not gout. got carbon fibre insole from Physical Therapist and symptoms only return if I don't use it. Not impressed with urgent care docs.

 

[tas8831]

Dr. Alan Kleinman, MD, Family Medicine Specialist - Merced, CA | Sharecare

Went to an urgent care facility once, Dr. diagnosed gout, nurse said it looked like arthritis. Went home and looked up both, definitely not gout. got carbon fibre insole from Physical Therapist and symptoms only return if I don't use it. Not impressed with urgent care docs.

So I guess the engineering thing didn't pan out for him. You'd think a super genius like Al would have been gobbled up by the Discovery Institute or the ICR by now. What with his math skills and all. Wonder how many of his patients he regales with his exposition on the failures of evolution. They're creepy like that.
Totally off topic, but as I like piling on these creeps - once encountered an Asian woman (can't remember where she was from exactly) on, of all things, a Mormon usenet group. She claimed to have had Walter ReMine as a landlord (which is how I found the group, searched for ReMine). She mentioned that she used to come home from work and he would have come into her apartment while she was gone and left a bible or a copy of his YEC book on her table open to specific pages with highlighted passages (knowing how a lot of these types operate, I'm betting he did some... other things.. while he was in her apartment, too), tried to convert her or some weird stuff. ReMine showed up in the group - using a fake name, of course, as he is known to have done repeatedly - and started heaping praise upon himself in the 3rd person as he used to do on other usenet groups, even after he got caught. Creeps...

 

[tas8831]

So if macroevolution doesn't exist then please explain to your adoring audience how the diversity of life on earth came to be.

AND provide the physics and math that explains it.

 

[tas8831]

Ah! Scientific evidence without experiment, that's called pseudo-science.

I thought it was called creationism?

Oh, wait - creationism is sciencey-sounding assertions with neither experiment NOR evidence, based solely on a desire for the bible to be 100% true. Never mind...

 

[Phred]

9 whole months at this prestigious university...
September 1988 - June 1989

The American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine
Field of study

• Medicine

And back then this was owned and operated by DeVry.