Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Servus]

Why is that funny to you @Hmm ? If you go and read the Revelation 22 you will see there people that went into the kingdom and their was those who were outside of the kingdom. That is why I believe the way which is presented. (God is not a Despotic God) He is a just, fair, merciful God in the best estimation of what the bible presents to all people.

Adam chose freely.
Eve chose freely.
God justly and fairly ruled out the choice.
They were sent out of the Garden of Eden.

The question is, in Rev 22 why are the gates never shut? Is it so those outside can come in? Or so that we can go out to them?

 

[GallagherM]

That is not here on this earth. That is different, @MMXX

 

[Saint Steven]

When I say literal I am speaking to the idea that every inkstroke was guided by the hand of God.

That seems like a complete misunderstanding of how our Bible came to be. Sorry to burst your bubble. Maybe you can explain. ???

The authorship of the Bible is a very complicated and involved process. An oral tradition handed down for thousands of years. Then a written document that passed through many hands. Additions and changes made as it went. Sifted and edited down. Adjusted centuries after the initial writing.

And of all the ancient writings available, choices were made as to which ones should be canonized. There are even different canons. The books in each were voted in.

Don't get me wrong. I think they did a good job. I'm very happen with our canon as is.

And that just gets us to the "original" texts, which no longer exist. We have been working from copies of copies ever since. Do you read the footnotes at the bottom of the pages?

Translators had to pick and choose between all the conflicting copies to decide which one to use. Typically the oldest copies with the most agreement were used.

How is it "that every inkstroke was guided by the hand of God"?

Here's a helpful YouTube channel run by a Jewish man the does history charts. Check out the Who wrote the Bible? episodes.

https://www.youtube.com/user/usefulchartsdotcom

 

[GallagherM]

I am afraid was universalist mindset of earth have done for themselves is just assumed that all people are Children of God, which is a biblical lie.

We are all creations of God but we are not all of his Children.

The only way a person becomes a child of God in this life is by receiving the Spirit of Adoption by and through faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepting the good news about his , life, burial, death, resurrection by God - by being taught what has been said so they can become spiritually mature in their faith and walk.

 

[Cormack]

That is not here on this earth. That is different, @MMXX

It seems to me that the general string of thought from card carrying universalists is that all will be saved, not that all are saved right now.

 

[Servus]

It's hard to argue with what God has presented friend @MMXX

I've heard some very good summations of what God has presented that don't agree with your statements. Many of us in this thread have explored the three Christian doctrines of hell quite extensively. It seems like with your blanket statements you must think we just fell off the turnip truck.

 

[GallagherM]

There is a difference between earth, and heaven.

To go around saying "ALL ARE GOING TO BE SAVED LETS JUST LIVE AND DO WHATEVER WE WANT WHO CARES" - is not going to help the case of understanding the truth of what the bible presents and am afraid that the message gets distorted in the long run if they continue to believe like this; @Cormack

but people have their own choice of whatever they are going to do and believe.

 

[GallagherM]

Believe how you desire @MMXX.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's hard to argue with what God has presented friend @MMXX

Right. Play the God-card to win the debate. Good work.

(parody)

Debater 1: "My opinion is god-breathed."
Debater 2: "Does that explain your bad breath?"

 

[GallagherM]

Believe how you desire sir; @Saint Steven

Not here to fight anyone just present my understanding of what has been made known to be true according to the bible.

But if people do not desire to go and look at the bible for truth; that is between them and God on how they choose to live and conduct their life.

No judgement here. I love you guys regardless of that point.

 

[Cormack]

My understanding of Gods involvement with the scriptures comes by way of reading Josh McDowell, @Saint Steven. The evidence that demands a verdict.

My understanding is that the Bible is Gods word in two ways, first the Bible is His word because it contains the very words of God. Second and more importantly, the Bible is Gods word as He is the superintendent of its content.

The Spirit was guiding but not commanding the Bible writers, it’s not as if God were possessing the writers and causing them to pen the words they settled on.

Still like you I wasn’t sure how much sense God “guiding every ink stroke” made. It could be as radical as finger possession or as vanilla as my above perspective.

At first blush guiding every ink stroke sounds like the kind of theology Bart Ehrman had before discovering that there were Bible variants, and then junking in his whole religion.

But then again we all know Bart.

 

[Servus]

There is a difference between earth, and heaven.

To go around saying "ALL ARE GOING TO BE SAVED LETS JUST LIVE AND DO WHATEVER WE WANT WHO CARES" - is not going to help the case of understanding the truth of what the bible presents and am afraid that the message gets distorted in the long run if they continue to believe like this; @Cormack

but people have their own choice of whatever they are going to do and believe.

That's not the doctrine of Christan UR. If you don't have much knowledge regarding UR you really shouldn't be commenting on it that way.

 

[Cormack]

To go around saying "ALL ARE GOING TO BE SAVED LETS JUST LIVE AND DO WHATEVER WE WANT WHO CARES"

Can you tell me how many universalists have made this claim in the topic?

I can name 3 traditionalists who have said that about universalists in this thread, but the universalists don’t argue that themselves.

It’s most commonly said by people who want to throw mud on the reputation or the beliefs of others.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not here to fight anyone just present my understanding of what has been made known to be true according to the bible.

Others have differing opinions about that as well. How could you best accommodate that?

 

[GallagherM]

Instead of focusing on the doctrine; Focus on God and what He has presented.

Do not worry or listen to what man says; trust God instead.

As human beings we make mistakes and tend to be wrong. I know that I make mistakes and can be wrong myself. So consider me to be a liar friends.

Romans 3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY WORDS, AND MIGHTEST PREVAIL WHEN THOU ART JUDGED.”

 

[Servus]

Believe how you desire @MMXX.

I'm not a UR proponent. But I have learned a lot about it from Othodox PhD theologians and such.

 

[Cormack]

I think some smears are considered acceptable hereabouts. Saying that the proponents of universalism are rabid sinners is just one of them.

 

[Saint Steven]

My understanding of Gods involvement with the scriptures comes by way of reading Josh McDowell, @Saint Steven. The evidence that demands a verdict.

My understanding is that the Bible is Gods word in two ways, first the Bible is His word because it contains the very words of God. Second and more importantly, the Bible is Gods word as He is the superintendent of its content.

The Spirit was guiding but not commanding the Bible writers, it’s not as if God were possessing the writers and causing them to pen the words they settled on.

Still like you I wasn’t sure how much sense God “guiding every ink stroke” made. It could be as radical as finger possession or as vanilla as my above perspective.

At first blush guiding every ink stroke sounds like the kind of theology Bart Ehrman had before discovering that there were Bible variants, and then junking in his whole religion.

But then again we all know Bart.

I'm familiar with Josh McDowell and was a big fan at one time. Even heard him speak in person to a small group of perhaps 150 to 200 listeners.

Over that years I have learned that many things he presented are questionable. He was fortunate to come on the scene when the secular voices were ripping us to shreds. He provided the apologetics that our itching ears wanted to hear. It was faith-building at the time.

 

[Hmm]

I think some smears are considered acceptable hereabouts. Saying that the proponents of universalism are rabid sinners is just one of them.

That seems to be the case.

 

[Cormack]

Even heard him speak in person to a small group of perhaps 150 to 200 listeners.

Maaaaaan that’s cool. Sucks about some of the dodgy info, but still cool. He seems like a genuine guy.