Sidon

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Have you read the Epistle of James? Faith without works is dead.

I did more then read it. I studied it and discerned it.

So, let me explain your verse you posted, so that the readers can see it..

James said, to the believers ....."faith without works is dead".
Then James says this, teaching them what he means..
"i will show YOU , MY Faith, by my works'. = spiritual "fruit".

See that?

Why did he say that?
Because when faith is real vs, stagnate and cold, then your life reflects it, as "works". "fruit".

So, if your faith is dead then you are backslidden, and you are not focused at all on the things of God.
This is DEMAS...who was born again, and a Part of Paul's ministry, but got caught up in the world, and left it all.

Where is He now?
He is with all the born again who have died since Christ was Crucified.


Finally. ..... Notice that James says "dead faith< but is careful to not say...>dead salvation.

Notice that, and then in the future when a deceiver tries to make you feel that you can lose your salvation, by misquoting James, you will know what they are, instantly.
 
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Sidon

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Firsrly, “self-saving theology” is Pelagianism, but rejecting the doctrine of Pelagius does not require us to embrace Calvinist determinism or Once Saved, Always Saved, which is a moral hazard.

I dont notice Calvin.
I only Teach Paul.

And the "once saved always saved", phrase you used, was created by a legalist who rejects the Cross, and does not understand the Blood Atonement.
And neither do his disciples.
 
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Sidon

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“Blood atonement” by the way is not a commonly used phrase in Christianity;

You mean its not widely known by your denomination.
I agree.

Lets look at the phrase.

"Atonement"...this means at-one-ment.
To be as "ONE". is the correct "christian" NT Pauline Theology understanding.
I can't vouch for Websters or for the "cult of Mary", as i am not interested in their definition.

So, this explains why the world BLOOD is used with it.

As its by the Blood of Jesus, that we are made "ONE with God, in Christ".

This : "For by one offering (blood atonement) CHRIST hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

Notice = "perfected forever", and "ARE sanctified"...

How?
By the "blood Atonement", not by works, not by effort, not by commandments.

Only by Christ's Blood. The Blood Atonement.
 
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Sidon

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Even so, John MacArthur goes a step further, by teaching that, those who presently live by that Gospel Faith, will never fall away or lose their salvation - because their faith and resulting salvation are both guaranteed by God.

Let me show you the error in John's theology, regarding "why they will never fall away"..

Its very simple.
John is equating being saved, with never being bad , ever again.
He is teaching that because you are sanctified by the Blood of Jesus, you can never again be a human and totally mess up.

So, thats not reality or Christianity.

Here is the reality.
Paul said. "use not your LIBERTY, as a occasion to the flesh".
Paul then described the works of the Flesh...and its a list of carnal deeds, including witchcraft...etc.

So, a born again Christian does not have a born again mind.
And that mind, until it is renewed,.... will take you into carnality, if you do not learn how to renew it, so that you are no longer trapped and controlled by the "soul realm", which is the Natural or Carnal Mind.
 
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Sidon

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I don't know how many believe that but many believe that once made just, justified, one is expected to walk in that justice, and not compromise and ultimately lose it. We must remain in Him;

The only way you can be in God and remain, is to be born again.

Your theology of self effort does not cause the new birth, and its only the new birth that marks heaven as your home after you die.
 
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fhansen

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The only way you can be in God and remain, is to be born again.

Your theology of self effort does not cause the new birth, and its only the new birth that marks heaven as your home after you die.
Even as faith is a gift it's also an obligation, a choice that we can shirk. So our wills are involved to one degree or another from beginning to end. Which is the whole point to begin with. Since Eden on until this day God's been patiently working with man to turn him back to right choice, to alignment with His own will, without force. He wont force us to do the right thing, or to remain in that state. But to the extent that we do, our justice or righteousness exists intact and even increases. Absolutely impossible without grace, apart from God, but He still doesn't do it apart from us.

Because from the big picture His whole intent isn't to just save a portion of otherwise worthless wretches but to actually produce something here, something better than He began with, something truly great. And it doesn't happen without our participation. And that's why it's taken so long. It's all a work of His, of cultivating His crop, preparing it to blossom.
 
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pescador

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You mean its not widely known by your denomination.
I agree.

Lets look at the phrase.

"Atonement"...this means at-one-ment.
To be as "ONE". is the correct "christian" NT Pauline Theology understanding.
I can't vouch for Websters or for the "cult of Mary", as i am not interested in their definition.

So, this explains why the world BLOOD is used with it.

As its by the Blood of Jesus, that we are made "ONE with God, in Christ".

This : "For by one offering (blood atonement) CHRIST hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”

Notice = "perfected forever", and "ARE sanctified"...

How?
By the "blood Atonement", not by works, not by effort, not by commandments.

Only by Christ's Blood. The Blood Atonement.

Atonement does most definitely not mean "at-one-ment"; there is no such thing. The word means "the concept of a person taking action to correct previous wrongdoing on their part." Therefore, the rest of your post, being based on a false meaning, means nothing.
 
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Sidon

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Even as faith is a gift it's also an obligation,.

Salvation is God's blood making you righteous.

That is not your obligation, that is God's Gift of Jesus on the Cross.

You obligation, is to "work out your salvation, in awe and wonder".
This is your discipleship.
Its the entire time you are saved, and are breathing whereby you learn how to exist as a Son of God, on this earth, according to the Spiritual Law of the Kingdom of God that is DEFINED as : being "under Grace" and not 'Under Law".
 
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Sidon

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Atonement does most definitely not mean "at-one-ment"; there is no such thing. The word means "the concept of a person taking action to correct previous wrongdoing on their part." Therefore, the rest of your post, being based on a false meaning, means nothing.


As i said, if you use a non Christian Source, you will find the secular definition.

But when you are dealing with Salvation, then the "atonement", is God on the Cross, offering His Blood that Atones for your sin......so there is the secular idea, but in this Atonement, you have the BLOOD that is the CAUSE, and that results in a new birth of a person dead Spirit, that become "ONE With God", "In Christ"< and that is the At -ONE- Ment.

So, that is what the BLOOD Atonement CAUSES., and why.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Are you referring to my post or to the Byzantine model of Soteriology?

I expect it was my post, and I find it amusing in a self-deprecating way that my literary abstractions are themselves becoming Byzantine
St. Gregory Palamas is known to write that way, while St. Athanasius according to CS Lewis was one of the easiest Greek writers to read. In English, his Life of Anthony is well translated and is really a page-turner, but I have yet to find a translation of On The Incarnation that I liked.



John Wesley did not come up with them; Wednesday and Friday fasts are so ancient that their origin is obscure, but the thought is that Wednesday is a commemoration of our Lord’s arrest and Friday the Crucifixion. The only innovation Wesley introduced in his Sunday Service Book for North America recension of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer was to indicate that people should attend church on those days for the express purpose of praying the Anglican Litany, but that didn’t happen. Advent and Lent, which are newer, dating from the 5th-7th centuries I think, are also present, although the Roman Rite and the Protestant churches based on it are the only churches in the world where Advent is only four weeks long instead of the usual six (if you travel to Milan, where the Ambrosian Liturgy is used, Advent starts two weeks earlier), but this is a minor gripe, and also to be fair, if we lengthened Advent we would have to order new wreaths and the system of O Antiphons, and in high church Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Roman Catholicism, the Rorate Caeli masses might also break.*

But, it is frustrating to me how much of Wesley”s doctrine and his Anglican sensibilities, for example, his love of the Book of Common Prayer, were set aside by the Methodist Episcopal Church in favor of what was described in one article of the Oxford Handbook on Methodism as a Reformed church with Arminian soteriology. I have never been to a Methodist church with weekly Communion, heard a Methodist elder preach about salvation through Entire Sanctification (Theosis) or about the incident where Wesley”s heart was “strangely moved,” or seen any trace of the Book of Common Prayer or its Methodist customization, the Sunday Service Book, in use, but I am sure there are Methodist parishes where John Wesley plays a role similar to Martin Luther in Lutheran churches, St. Thomas Aquinas in Roman Catholic churches, St. Severus of Antioch in Oriental Orthodox churches, and St. John of Damascus in Eastern Orthodox churches, as someone whose material is particularly useful and relevant as a manual of the faith, (for example, Luther”s theology remains very visible in Lutheran churches, aside from his nasty anti-Semitism he developed towards the end of his life, but Lutheran ideas about the Mass still prevail, his hymns predominate, and his Catechisms and Law/Gospel dichotomy remain in use).

These thinkers, while not by any means innovative (except in the case of Aquinas and Severus, but its a good innovation, in that Severus advanced Theopaschite doctrine with his hymn “Only Begotten Son” which I regard as something approaching a litmus test for correct Christology, and Aquinas with his philosophical proofs for God. Conversely, the Reformed churches don’t seem to care about John Calvin as much as I would like; it is again exceedingly rare to find a Presbyterian church with weekly communion (although I think some of the Reformed churches in the US that are originally of Dutch origin do this, and I have also heard of it in the Church of Scotland). At present, however, the depressing reality for someone who loves both John and Charles Wesley is that only the latter is highly visible in Methodist worship, and the increasing dominance of “Praise and Worship Music” endanger this in some parishes, although there is some consolation from the fact John Wesley did theologically edit the hymns of his brother Charles, who was a better poet than a theologian.



No, and no; if you will permit me to elaborate: many people struggle with sinful behaviors which are habit-forming, like problem gambling, drugs, alcoholism, smoking, wrathfulness/uncontrolled anger, prostitution, inappropriate contentography, homosexuality, and other depravities. Support groups exist for many of these, but they don’t always work, and “Conversion Therapy” for homosexuals has been a disaster for the churches that tried it.

We have to anolish the Forensic model of sin, and embrace the Orthodoc medicinal model, where sin is viewed as a disease resulting from our condition which takes a long time to cure. But many of these these people are sorry for their sins, as they are suffering from an illness and our Lord says we should, and implies He will, forgive a sin not seven times, but seventy times seven (further implying boundless, infinite capability for forgiveness). Private confession can bring relief to pained consciences. There is also the Anglican approach of a public confiteor, where the congregation confesses at Morning Prayer and Evensong “we have left undone what we ought to have done, and done that which we ought not to have done...we are truly sorry) and the Priest pronounces absolution; a similar confiteor and the Prayer of Humble Access exist at traditional Holy Communion services. These sacramentals can bring great relief to people who feel a sense of Metanoia but cannot act on it.

Regarding penances, I don’t believe in them except for grave sins which involve murder or mayhem or racketeering, such as a doctor who performs abortions, or the leader of a shoplifting ring or a higj level drug dealer, or sins which threaten the integrity of the church, such as a member who spreads damaging gossip about other members. Only the Roman Rite and related rites insist on penancing all people who come to confess. The Orthodox do not; when I was with the OCA, which I loved (I left because I felt called to revitalize Congregationalism by injecting a blend of Orthodox and Wesleyan principles and pursue ecumenical unity among traditional churches), I went to confession many times, I found it very helpful, and no priest ever demanded a penance of me. This is the medicinal model in action, which is so much better than the forensic model that words fail me in trying to describe the extent of its superiority.

* Fun fact: Canon XX of the Council of Nicea prohibits fasting and prostration in church from Easter to Pentecost Sunday, although only the ban on prostration survives past St. Thomas Sunday (also known as Low Sunday, perhaps because it and Christmas Sunday have the lowest attendance), but I think if we want to get Protestants, as I do, to experience Advent and Lent, not just as fasts, because many people can’t fast due to illness, but instead, as times of increased prayer, communion and repentence, Canon XX should be in force. Canon I, in case you were wondering, extends the apostolic canon denying ordination to people who have killed anyone post-Baptism to people who have castrated themselves or been castrated for reasons other than medical neccessity, as the Church regarded this act as self- murder, which I think is a fascinating insight into the collective mindset of the bishops, largely those consecrated at the end of the Diocletian Persecution, who were at Nicea.
I had always wondered about that, Liturgist. Because, honestly, you don’t sound like a Protestant. I kept wondering “why in the heck doesn’t Liturgist become Orthodox already?”, and to hear that you had been with the OCA for a while makes sense.
 
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fhansen

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Salvation is God's blood making you righteous.
Yes! Maybe you're getting it now. Jesus died so that we may be reconciled with God-and receive the authentic righteousness that flows only from that union. Then we must continue to live and walk in it. We aren't force to accept the gift of His shed blood; we aren't forced to believe; that's an option.
You obligation, is to "work out your salvation, in awe and wonder".
This is your discipleship.
Sure, and our salvation, as that verse in Phil 2 says and Rom 6:20-22 affirms:
"When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life."
 
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Ceallaigh

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You quoted JUDE.

Let me explain that verse.

There are ungodly people, led by the devil, who deceive by saying that when Grace is taught correctly, that this is "license" or 'licentiousness'".

It's plainly obvious Paul saw that objection coming when he wrote:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2
 
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Ceallaigh

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Atonement does most definitely not mean "at-one-ment"; there is no such thing. The word means "the concept of a person taking action to correct previous wrongdoing on their part." Therefore, the rest of your post, being based on a false meaning, means nothing.

That's just wordplay used for effect. Like, whenever the Bible says "therefore" you should find out what it's there for.
 
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setst777

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Generally, you dont ask questions, setst777

You just show up on my Threads and post a very long personal theology that no one reads.

So, you are saying that, because I don't ask you many questions, then the couple questions I do ask you, you do not feel you have to answer?

The posts may seem long to you, but they are not. My responses are fairly short, but I quote Scripture as evidence.

I don't just quote a fraction of a sentence or a one line of Scripture as you do; rather, I quote the context with it. The Scriptures make up the bulk of my messages, which you have avoided and actually went out of your way to ignore.

Notice that I actually respond to your points, while you avoid direct dialogue and refuse to acknowledge the Scriptures given.

And then you make unfounded accusations against me, which had nothing to do with my responses.

And regarding your legalism you are teaching, that tries to teach that a person keeps themselves saved by never backsliding....well, that is just not true.

Unfounded accusations. Had you actually responded to what I wrote, and read my responses to you, you would not keep making false accusations.

This is the Grace of God as the "blood atonement".

What do these two Scriptures mean to you?

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:4-6 (WEB)
4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him.
5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word.
This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.
 
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setst777

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You quoted JUDE.

Let me explain that verse.

There are ungodly people, led by the devil, who deceive by saying that when Grace is taught correctly, that this is "license" or 'licentiousness'".

Exactly. Is that not what you are promoting?

For instance, I have shown you many Scriptures now, how a true Christian is a disciple of Lord Jesus, following Him. These only are saved.

In response, you say that is legalism, and that no matter how much we backslide or sin, we are still made perfect and righteous by the blood of Jesus.
 
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Ligurian

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Salvation is what Christ did for the WORLD, .. John 3:16, 2000 yrs ago.
He completed it. He said..>"it is FINISHED" just before He died.
Some bibles say "It is accomplished".
What is Finished?

What is Finished?
Answer: All that was necessary for Jesus to literally become
the Passover Lamb slain before the creation of the world.

The original Greek is in (parentheses)...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be (ginomai) fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be (ginomai) fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

Ginomai is "generated", according to Strong's.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now (teleo) accomplished, that the scripture might be (teleioo) fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth.
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is (teleo) finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost.

That this scripture might be fulfilled:

Exodus 12:21 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, "This passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses."

This text proves that hyssop was needed for the service of the Passover.
Jesus came to fulfill all that was written of Him concerning His first advent.

Matthew 26:12-13 For in that she hath poured this ointment on My body, she did [it] for My burial. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

This ointment is (myrrh). Myrrh and Frankinsense came from the wise men of (anatole) [Greece literally called Anatolia "the east"]... Smyrna, one of two blameless churches in Asia (anatolia), is (Myrrh). Frankinsense is (libanos), translated Lebanon.
 
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Sidon

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It's plainly obvious Paul saw that objection coming when he wrote:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Romans 6:1-2

Yes.

Not many believers recognize that Paul was defending at that time, what has now become known as "OSAS" or "eternal security".

See, Legalsim, which is the rejection of the Truth that Christ alone is the Savior, from beginning to end, is not a new theology.
JUDE talks about these ministers of darkness who went into churches to plant the idea that Grace is license, when its actually taught correctly.
That is the Devil FLIPPING Grace into Law and Commandments and self effort theology, by accusing Grace of being License to sin.
Amazing.
And Paul was dealing with these same types.
They went so far as to accuse Paul of teaching that we should sin so that Grace can come and deal with it.
 
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Sidon

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In response, you say that is legalism, and that no matter how much we backslide or sin, we are still made perfect and righteous by the blood of Jesus.

Following Jesus is not how you go to heaven.
Salvation is how you go to heaven.
Salvation, is God on the Cross saving you, not you on the Cross trying to do it for yourself.
 
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