A forever hell

[Light of the East]

Revelation 21:6-8 (WEB)
6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

*Sigh* You have no idea what this verse means. You haven't studied your Bible thoroughly and you have listened to deceived preachers teaching deception.

The Lake of Fire is God's love. It is a METAPHOR, not a reality. In order to discover what the metaphor is, you have to know what fire does in the Scriptures and you have to know more than one verse. Fire is spoken of as refining. Do you know what refining is? It is taking the base metal, which is precious, such as gold, and refining out all the impurities. Such refining is spoken of in many places in the Scriptures.

Unfortunately, the Medieval Church developed these strange theories that the fire is a real and actual fire like the one we are familiar with here on earth. Then they came up with other strange ideas like it burns but never destroys, so that the soul is tormented forever. These men were demented and in darkness, not knowing the Scriptures, but rather approaching them with presuppositions and then bending the meaning of Scripture to fit their sadistic ideas of a God more like Molech than Jesus.

Protestantism didn't cast this off either. In their own spiritual darkness, they went right along with it.

This verse is teaching what happens when the soul is judged. Those who have followed Christ and conformed themselves to Him will enter into the New Jerusalem and enjoy fellowship with Him. But those who need to be purified will find that the presence of Christ is a lake of fire to them. It will burn all that is not like Christ until nothing remains of the evil within but ashes.

The image of God is the precious gold that is in every human being, no matter how they cover it over with the filth of sin. Under all that filth is the image of God, waiting to receive its inheritance. The removal of that filth will be terribly painful, the degree of pain corresponding to the degree of sin in the soul.

If you found a Monet painting, worth millions, covered in grime and mold, would you just toss it away? Or would you bring it to be restored to its full glory? How much more precious than a Monet painting is the soul of each and every man. You don't believe this. You believe what Augustine taught, that we are depraved and only worthy of hell. That is not what God sees. He sees His image in every sinner, and as a master restorationist, He will cleanse each and every soul so that it comes forth shining.

 

[Light of the East]

Heterodox nonsense. Taught by people who know nothing about the Biblical languages to people who also know nothing about Biblical languages so they will uncritically accept anything their "teachers"/"leaders" tell them.
See my 2 back to back posts #222-223 immediately above.
Here are 2 vss. from the above posts where Jesus defines "aionios," twice.

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal, everlasting non-perishing life.

As I said, Ace, when you take on Dr. Illaria Ramelli and Dr. David Bentley Hart, then I will give some creedence to what you are spouting off. Both of them would mop the floor with you in a debate. And I would pay good money to see it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No, because the parable of the lost sheep are about those who did find it. They are his sheep. Some sheep stray, and Lord Jesus will try to find them. But not all are willing to return - some will disown Christ in times of testing, others will be deceived, others will deliberately live in sin, and so will be lost.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. 2 Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned. 3 In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn’t linger, and their destruction will not slumber.

2 Timothy 2:11-14 (WEB)
11 This saying is trustworthy:
“For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
If we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we deny him, he also will deny us.
If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”
14 Remind them of these things

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (WEB) 4 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron

1 Timothy 4:14-16 (WEB) 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the elders. 15 Be diligent in these things. Give yourself wholly to them, that your progress may be revealed to all. 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

1 Timothy 6:18-21 (WEB)
18 that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to share; 19 laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.
20 Timothy, guard that which is committed to you, turning away from the empty chatter and oppositions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some profess, and thus have wandered from the faith.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB)12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,
“Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

2 Peter 3:17-18 (WEB)
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

1 John 2:15-17 (WEB)
17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.

Revelation 3:1-5 (WEB)
1 “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:11-12 (WEB)
11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more.

Revelation 12:11 (WEB)
11 They overcame him because of the Lamb’s blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn’t love their life, even to death.

Revelation 14:12-13 (WEB)
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

Revelation 16:15 (WEB)
15 “Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame.”

Revelation 21:6-8 (WEB)
6 He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son. 8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

I think you put the Believers on too high a pedestal...

 

[Light of the East]

Right. The three views of the final judgment all boil down to what they say about the character of God. Indeed. "... what kind of God...?" as you appropriately ask.

The problem is that human beings think they are spiritual and have spiritual understanding. Meanwhile, they show the darkness they (and me too!) labor under by recasting God in the mold of pagan deities. Only a spiritually darkened mind could create a "god' like Molech or Baal and then believe they had to toss their babies into the fire to please this "god."

The same darkness of mind has created the Christian "god' who somehow is love and yet without mercy allows mankind to be created only to be burned forever in torments. To me, this is Paganism 101 with a nice, shiny veneer of Jesus painted over it.

 

[CleanSoul]

Were those folks dead?

Yes. Jesus descended into Sheol, or Hades, which means, abode of the dead. He delivered the righteous spirits who had been there since the beginning of creation, but not the damned.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes. Jesus descended into Sheol, or Hades, which means, abode of the dead. He delivered the righteous spirits who had been there since the beginning of creation, but not the damned.

Not the damned? Like those who were disobedient in the days of Noah? (see bold)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Saint Steven]

We should love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, but - in context - Lord Jesus taught us that we forgive others that sin against us when they repent first.

Oh my. Did you really write that? (seems so)

 

[CleanSoul]

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah

I see what you are saying in this post, but, if you are damned, you are damned. Once in hell, people have no desire for heaven. They fully hate God, and are not able to repent because they do not want to.

Also, who knows who the disobedient were, or the depth of their disobedience. What I'm saying is, not everyone was set free. And, yes, they had died.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="CleanSoul, I see what you are saying in this post, but, if you are damned, you are damned. Once in hell, people have no desire for heaven. They fully hate God, and are not able to repent because they do not want to.

Also, who knows who the disobedient were, or the depth of their disobedience. What I'm saying is, not everyone was set free. And, yes, they had died.

Nonsense. The very suffering of hell is because they have a desire for the good and cannot have it.

They are not able to repent? And how do you infallibly know this? Have you been on the other side of death and observed the dead? What is your proof of this, other than your own imagination on the subject?

 

[Saint Steven]

I see what you are saying in this post, but, if you are damned, you are damned. Once in hell, people have no desire for heaven. They fully hate God, and are not able to repent because they do not want to.

Also, who knows who the disobedient were, or the depth of their disobedience. What I'm saying is, not everyone was set free. And, yes, they had died.

The Catholic Encyclopedia could probably clarify some of this for you. (or maybe I am the one who is off?) Research: The Harrowing of Hell

As I recall, there were no "damned", per se. Jesus preached the gospel to them and then led the parade out of the realm of the dead. Taking captivity captive.

I don't think that even in Damnationism (the forever burning hell), there are the damned in hell until after the judgment. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[CleanSoul]

I don't think that even in Damnationism (the forever burning hell), there are the damned in hell until after the judgment. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

This is probably a source you have never deemed as relevant, but consider the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1033:

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor, or against ourselves... To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called, "hell."

Or, paragraph 1035:

Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[Saint Steven]

Or, paragraph 1035:

Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

But did this apply at the time of the Harrowing of Hell? Probably not.

 

[Clare73]

It's not another word with a different meaning. The word used is "aion" and it is one of the derivitives of "aionios."
The word "aion" and its derivitives all have the same meaning - age or something pertaining to age.

With the differences being in the length of time, ending or unending.
Aion is ending, aionios is unending (eternal).

The NT usage of aiosnios to mean eternal, without end, is confirmed in the following parallels:

1) Christ's kingdom is without end (Luke 1:33), Christ's kingdom is eternal (2 Peter 1:11)
2) eternal sin = never forgiven (Mark 3:29)
3) resurrection body is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53), resurrection body is eternal (2 Corinthians 5:1)
4) eternal life of John 3:16 is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53)
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season), what is unseen is eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18)
6) eternal judgment = unchanging sentence (Hebrews 6:2)

You cannot, for instance, take the word "aion" and translate it as "world," as some of the wretched Latin translators did with the Greek. There is a specific word for world - kosmos.

There is nothing wretched about aion being translated "world" when it refers to this age.
"Not in this world (temporal) but in the next world (eternity)" means "not in this age (time) but in the next age (timeless)."
It is common parlance.

So, for instance, the KJV wrongly gives Matthew 24:3 as saying "...and the end of the world..." people have looked at that verse and thought that it means that Matthew 24 is speaking about all the things that will happen when the world comes to an end,

That is precisely what it is speaking about. . .the end of this age is the end of the world, for the next age is eternity, in the new heavens and new earth after both have been destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10-13).

and have developed the laughable and stupid "Rapture of the Church" theory with all its associated nonsense.
That is what bad translations have done.

So Paul is laughable and stupid in

1 Thessalonians 4:17- "We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with the loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God (summons to judgment), and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever (time is over)."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him. . .do not become alarmed that the day of the Lord has already come. . .for that day will not come until the rebellion (apostasy) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

It is definitely not Paul who is laughable and stupid. . .and ignorant.
That is what wretched ignorance of Scripture has done.

 

[CleanSoul]

But did this apply at the time of the Harrowing of Hell? Probably not.

You mean the spirits who were there? Those who had died before Jesus' work on the cross? I would imagine it would be the same as the plains Indians, or anyone else who never heard the Gospel. From what I understand, we have a moral code or understanding of right and wrong written on our conscience. God knows our hearts.

 

[Light of the East]

With the differences being in the length of time, ending or unending.
Aion is ending, aionios is unending (eternal).

The NT usage of aiosnios to mean eternal, without end, is confirmed in the following parallels:

1) Christ's kingdom is without end (Luke 1:33), Christ's kingdom is eternal (2 Peter 1:11)
2) eternal sin = never forgiven (Mark 3:29)
3) resurrection body is immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53), resurrection body is eternal (2 Corinthians 5:1)
4) eternal life of John 3:16 is the life of the immortal resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:53)
5) what is seen is temporal (for a season), what is unseen is eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18)
6) eternal judgment = unchanging sentence (Hebrews 6:2)
There is nothing wretched about aion being translated "world" when it refers to this age.
"Not in this world (temporal) but in the next world (eternity)" means "not in this age (time) but in the next age (timeless)."
It is common parlance.
That is precisely what it is speaking about. . .the end of this age is the end of the world, for the next age is eternity, in the new heavens and new earth after both have been destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10-13).
So Paul is laughable and stupid in

1 Thessalonians 4:17- "We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with the loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God (summons to judgment), and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever (time is over)."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him. . .do not become alarmed that the day of the Lord has already come. . .for that day will not come until the rebellion (apostasy) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

It is definitely not Paul who is laughable and stupid. . .and ignorant.
That is what wretched ignorance of Scripture has done.

Try running that nonsense past Dr. Illaria Ramelli, who is a world-renouned Greek scholar.

 

[Light of the East]

1 Thessalonians 4:17- "We believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with the loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God (summons to judgment), and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever (time is over)."

This is the same description as in 1 Corinthians 15. If you knew how to study your Bible and compare Scripture with Scripture, you would see that 1 Corinthians 15, the entire chapter, is about the Resurrection. Has nothing to do with some faux "Rapture of the Church" invented in the 19th century by a wee Scottish lassie who had one too many pickle and ice cream sandwiches before retiring for the night (In case you don't know the story, she claimed God gave this "Rapture" theory to her in a dream. More like a nightmare to me.)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Notice that the unforgiving servant was only to receive WRATH UNTIL he paid all that was due to him. Sin is debt, we learn that from the Old Testament. Anytime someone sinned that had certain sacrifices they had to them procure and bring to the altar to make atonement for those sins.

Just like Matt 5:25-26:

Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

But get out thou willst. Because Jesus has the keys. Thank God for that.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Oh my. Did you really write that? (seems so)

Say sorry and I'll forgive you. That's the spirit.

That's the infernalists' reading of 'every knee shall bow'. Reminds me of a guy who used to say 'You can lead a horse to water and you can make it drink...by forcing its head under.'

 

[Saint Steven]

You mean the spirits who were there? Those who had died before Jesus' work on the cross? I would imagine it would be the same as the plains Indians, or anyone else who never heard the Gospel. From what I understand, we have a moral code or understanding of right and wrong written on our conscience. God knows our hearts.

The Harrowing of Hell happened between Jesus death on the cross and his resurrection. It is what he was doing for those three days.

You are bringing in aspects from the final judgement. That doesn't apply here.