When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

[Berean Tim]

All, included Jesus, prophecised it will happen soon, while they are alive. In their era, not in ours.

Got to leave for awhile, I'll be back with a little study on "soon"

 

[Timtofly]

All, included Jesus, prophecised it will happen soon, while they are alive. In their era, not in ours.

Prophecy and fulfillment are not the same.

 

[Navair2]

The Second Coming happens before the Trumpets. Jesus brings the angels and Trumpets to earth when He comes.

" And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:31 ).

" In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ( 1 Corinthians 15:52 ).

 

[ewq1938]

Correct. The second coming comes at the 7th and last trumpet not before the trumpets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

" And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:31 ).

" In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ( 1 Corinthians 15:52 ).

 

[sovereigngrace]

The Second Coming happens before the Trumpets. Jesus brings the angels and Trumpets to earth when He comes.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This proves that we are looking at recaps in Revelation. The last trump is the end of the world.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the Second Coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

 

[jeffweedaman]

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic Coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This proves that we are looking at recaps in Revelation. The last trump is the end of the world.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious second coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

The chronological hypothesis in relation to the complete book of Revelation is defective in the extreme as, by its very nature, it must project chapters 11-22 into ‘the age that is to come’, as from this chapter on, time shall clearly be no more. If the dispensationalist is consistent, it must exclude the prophetic relevance of chapters 11-22 to the Church and mankind today or to any generation preceding the Second Coming of the Lord. In reality, the chronological theory capitulates at this juncture, like other similar readings, enjoying not even the remotest support. In fact, it undermines the very character and import of the book of Revelation which embodies a number of repeated cycles outlining God’s Sovereign dealings with both the righteous and the wicked. Dealings that include the great overall battle between good and evil, between Christ and Satan, the Church and its enemies.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

The respective chronological views dismiss the correct translation “there should be time no longer” and replace it by ‘there should be no more delay’. However, those who do such are still faced with insurmountable mountains, some of which we have already highlighted. Moreover, this is an undoubted forced interpretation, which must be opposed on several fronts.

Firstly, this is undoubtedly the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ – the end – it has absolutely nothing to do with delaying the days.

Secondly, the King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: “chronos ouketi estai”

‘Time - no longer – there shall be’!!!

Thirdly, the above interpretation of the Greek in this passage is in perfect and harmonious agreement with their consistent usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so in an attempt to justify the Pre-mil theory, and the myriads of goats that their paradigm produces during their millennium.

Also, the interpretation of these Greek words in this passage, in the AV, is in clear and absolute agreement with their consistent usage throughout the rest of Scripture. Those therefore who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the Second Coming or to support the inconsistent Pre-mil theory. The word chronos in this reading, which is rendered “time” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of “time” or “times” in Scripture.

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

Amen
I pray that all who begin to read this post will endure to the end of it.

Rock solid as rock solid can be.

God bless.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Amen
I pray that all who begin to read this post will endure to the end of it.

Rock solid as rock solid can be.

God bless.

Thanks bro! I believe in the perseverance of the saints. LOL.

 

[Macchiato]

Im nervous abt all of this.

 

[trophy33]

Prophecy and fulfillment are not the same.

You think they were wrong, mistaken or manipulating their listeners to take their message more seriously?

 

[ViaCrucis]

At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in glory, the dead shall be raised, and we who are alive shall, with them, be transformed and caught up together to meet the returning, glorious Lord Jesus as He returns in judgment of the living and the dead.

I don't consider what I describe above "the Rapture"; it's the "catching up" St. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians ch. 4 in reference to Christ's glorious Parousia and the resurrection of the dead.

As such I can't vote in this poll.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in glory, the dead shall be raised, and we who are alive shall, with them, be transformed and caught up together to meet the returning, glorious Lord Jesus as He returns in judgment of the living and the dead.

I don't consider what I describe above "the Rapture"; it's the "catching up" St. Paul mentions in 1 Thessalonians ch. 4

The rapture and the catching up is the same exact event. caught up = rapture = harpazo

 

[ViaCrucis]

The rapture and the catching up is the same exact event. caught up = rapture = harpazo

And if it were simply a matter of semantics then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not just semantics.

The term "rapture" conjures some pretty explicit ideas: Of Christians being zapped into heaven before, during, or after a specific 3.5 or 7 year period known as the "Tribulation".

The Scriptures never teach this.

The Scriptures teach, and the Church has always confessed, that Jesus Christ will come again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, and at His coming the dead shall be raised, and both the living and reposed saints shall share in the resurrection. That is the point, in fact, of what Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 4, that at the resurrection of the body we who are alive need not worry that we will miss out; because they and we together shall share in the same glorious moment. The moment Jesus comes again as Judge, and all creation is made new.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JLB777]

If they expected it to happen while some of them remained alive, I would call it imminent. They were not in their 20's or 30' and the expected life span in those times was not high.

They knew the Lord would come when the signs He gave are fulfilled.


Paul plainly reiterated this to them.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:4

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

The coming of the Lord, the day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians who are awake and living for Him. They know what signs there will be just before His coming.



I would urge you to compare the verses that refer to the coming of the Lord; Day of the Lord.



These three main things occur at His coming.



The resurrection
The rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist




JLB

 

[JLB777]

It is always imminent for those alive. Tribulation has been nonstop since at least the Cross. Jesus places tribulation in the context of Cain killing Abel. Matthew 23:35 Luke 11:51.

The great tribulation begins by this event.



“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 25:15-21






JLB

 

[BABerean2]

The great tribulation begins by this event.



“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 25:15-21






JLB

The common word elements in the two passages below prove they are parallel Gospels.
Matthew 24:15-16 cannot be "understood" without John 10:22.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that which belonged to the Romans.


All of those who want to fully understand the text above should read “The Wars of the Jews”, Book 6, chapters 1-7, if you want to understand the temple, and Fort Antonia, and the cloisters that connected them, and the horrors of the war of 70 AD.

Before the temple was destroyed, Titus sent Josephus to speak to the leaders of the Jews in an attempt to stop the horror.
However, the Jews refused to listen.

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

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[Timtofly]

You think they were wrong, mistaken or manipulating their listeners to take their message more seriously?

Or present day interpretation is in error. That is also a valid answer.

Every generation since 30AD were supposed to accept it could happen to them. Is that God manipulating His own church?

No where is there a hint, except Daniel who could be interpreted as an "end" being 3500 years from his day. Half a time is 500. Times would be 2000, and time would be 1000. 500 years would be the first coming. 2000 years later the second coming. Then 1000 years until the end. Daniel 12:5-7

"Then I, Dani’el, looked; and I saw in front of me two others, one on this bank of the river and the other on its other bank. One of them asked the man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river, “How long will these wonders last?” The man dressed in linen who was above the water of the river raised his right and left hands toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times and a half, and that it will be when the the power of the holy people is no longer being shattered that all these things will end."

It was given in reverse order from actual history.

There is not one hint in the NT that they knew it would be over 1991 years after the Cross. Nor that it would happen or did happen sooner than that. Paul claims it had not happened yet:

"not to be easily shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.

"For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed"

So according to Paul, even today, any one who claims Jesus has returned is a deceiver. "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way." All will know, because Jesus claims all the tribes on earth will mourn. It cannot be covered up, period.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm Pre-Wrath. Post-Trib but before the wrath of God. Short version is the rapture is during/after the 6th Seal before the 7th Seal opens the Trumpets

If you conclude that the 7 trumpets chronologically follow the 6th seal, does this also mean you think the 42 month reign of the beast follows the 6th seal as well? The 42 month reign of the beast is obviously the great trib. And if the rapture occurs during the 6th seal, but that the 42 month reign of the beast chronologically follows the 6th seal, that obviously adds up to Pretrib. Any rapture that precedes the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast, regardless what label one has for that rapture, that rapture is still Pretrib.

 

[trophy33]

Every generation since 30AD were supposed to accept it could happen to them. Is that God manipulating His own church?

If God would say to every generation that the second coming will happen during their lives and it did not happen, then yes, its a manipulation.

If every generation believed they are the last generation based on their wrong theology, its not a manipulation by God.

The problem is that the apostolic generation (Jesus, apostles) should be inspired and therefore not to have a wrong theology.

 

[trophy33]

They knew the Lord would come when the signs He gave are fulfilled.


Paul plainly reiterated this to them.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:4

• For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

The coming of the Lord, the day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christians who are awake and living for Him. They know what signs there will be just before His coming.



I would urge you to compare the verses that refer to the coming of the Lord; Day of the Lord.



These three main things occur at His coming.



The resurrection
The rapture
The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist




JLB

Not sure what you are saying... that the Corinthian church is still alive today?

 

[Timtofly]

And if it were simply a matter of semantics then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not just semantics.

The term "rapture" conjures some pretty explicit ideas: Of Christians being zapped into heaven before, during, or after a specific 3.5 or 7 year period known as the "Tribulation".

The Scriptures never teach this.

The Scriptures teach, and the Church has always confessed, that Jesus Christ will come again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, and at His coming the dead shall be raised, and both the living and reposed saints shall share in the resurrection. That is the point, in fact, of what Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 4, that at the resurrection of the body we who are alive need not worry that we will miss out; because they and we together shall share in the same glorious moment. The moment Jesus comes again as Judge, and all creation is made new.

-CryptoLutheran

Paradise does not come to earth, or Paul would have emphasized that point. Paul did not say we are all meeting 6 ft below the ground, because "even those in the grave could not be caught up out of the ground". The meeting point was in the air, not even 6 ft. above the dead, on the earth’s surface.

Paul also does not say forever with Jesus. Instead of Jesus, he used Adonai or Lord.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

Jesus is the Son of the Lord of the vineyard. Jesus pointed this out:

"Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.' And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others."

We will forever be with the Lord God in His temple. Revelation 7

"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

"Heaven is my throne, earth is the footstool"

Stephen in Acts 7 echoed Isaiah, and John in Revelation 6 says all humanity will literally see:

"hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne"

How high in the sky we are not told. When the heavens melt, dissolve, are rolled back like a virtual reality screen, the Lord God will be seen on the throne. Paradise is in the same location, but it will not be on the earth. The earth is the footstool and the throne is above. Since the throne will be seen, and Paul says in the air, not 6ft. under ground, not on the surface, but in the air, seems likely Paradise will be next to the throne as John claims. Paradise is the temple.

It is only after the last 1000 years and in the NHNE, Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem and then comes down and is on the surface of the NE. Paul also does not say just in the power of Jesus, but that the Lord, the one on the throne comes in appearance. Titus 2:13

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

This is not the NHNE. This is the Second Coming and it happens at the 6th Seal. The whole earth will see God, the throne, the Trumpet of God, Jesus Christ, the Lamb pierced, and all the angels. Then the Trumpet sounds will be heard from the Trumpet of God. More than likely Paradise itself will be seen, in the air. That detail was left out of the NT.