When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

[Berean Tim]

QUOTE="Berean Tim

"When Christ returned in 70AD" ? The entire church missed it.

Apparently they did, as they did not think as Jews in the First Century understanding Jewish Apocalyptic Language which is woven throughout the text of Matthew 24. I would say that part of the problem was that Greeks and Latins couldn't think like Jews, therefore, when the read the text, they put a futuristic viewpont on it. In addition, the Latin Church has absolutely MANGLED the translation of the Greek in many places in the Scriptures. A good example is found in Matthew 24: 3 where the disciples ask when the end of the age (aion) is going to take place. Latin translators made that word into "world" and thus put a futuristic thrust upon it.

Matthew 24: 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did this happen in 70AD ? Nobody recorded this !!

This is Jewish language. Go back to the Old Testament to understand it. A Jew in the first century would have understood what a "cloud coming" meant -- Judgment for wickedness.

Isa 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

So God came riding upon a cloud, eh? What was He using - an English saddle or an American Cowboy saddle? Look, you have to compare Scripture with Scripture to understand properly. OT Scriptures speak of God coming upon clouds in judgment. The Jews of Christ's day would have immediately recognized this language and been appalled that judgment was heading their way again.

I'm very aware of the Preterist view point and I reject it. You should try to confuse others, I'm not buying

I understand. It took me a while to drop my Anabaptist Rapturist leanings and actually accept what Scripture is saying. It's hard. Open your mind and give yourself time to think it through.

You have no explanation as to why no-one recorded it. No ECF's wrote "when Jesus came back". They all wrote of a future coming with an actually AC. The writer of the Didache, the earliest writing after the gospels wrote of a literal return. The Didache relies on Matthew alone. You should look this up.
Yes, the scripture often describes "coming on the clouds" in judgement, this passage (Matthew 24:31) has Him coming to gather his Elect (chosen)
Please drop the sarcasm (what kind of saddle).

Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2 writes of the "man of sin" sitting in the temple proclaiming himself god. The Romans burnt the temple in 70AD, there was no time for this event.

 

[JLB777]

Do you believe Paul wrote both letters? How do you reconcile the fact he believed in imminency

Please show us the scripture where Paul believed the Lord’s return was “imminent”?


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:3


The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for me, and others who are watching for the signs Jesus gave.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib

1 Thessalonians 4:15 proves post trib.

 

[JLB777]

There is no 7-year tribulation

No such thing as a 7 year tribulation.


It’s 3 1/2 years.

 

[trophy33]

Please show us the scripture where Paul believed the Lord’s return was “imminent”?

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
1Th 4:17

 

[JLB777]

1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib. All it proves is that there is a catching away of the saints when Jesus comes. We both agree that there is a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4. That is not the issue. But you force a 7-years trib into it and a 3rd coming that does not exist in the text.

So:

There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

What we do have in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15



The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


The second coming of Christ, when He destroys the wicked.






JLB

 

[JLB777]

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
1Th 4:17

No mention of imminent.


Try again.

 

[JLB777]

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
1Th 4:17

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



The resurrection comes before the rapture.
The resurrection and rapture takes place at His coming.




The destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


His coming takes place at the end of the age, on the last day.



And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

• The resurrection takes place before the rapture, at His coming.
• The resurrection takes place on the last day.
• The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist takes place at His coming.

JLB

 

[trophy33]

No mention of imminent.


Try again.

If they expected it to happen while some of them remained alive, I would call it imminent. They were not in their 20's or 30' and the expected life span in those times was not high.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

The rapture is technically mid-second coming. He leaves heaven and arrives at the clouds of the Earth, then the rapture gathers all the living saints to Christ, then he descends to complete the actual coming/arrival where he is seen by the unsaved.

I could imagine that everyone can see Jesus already when He's on the clouds, and see the saints being gathered up, but yeah, you're right. Jesus' second coming is certainly after the tribulation though (which is probably the most-discussed question here).

 

[Rachel20]

Please show us the scripture where Paul believed the Lord’s return was “imminent”?

The first letter shows he believed the Lord's appearing was imminent. You even quoted it. The reason believers aren't caught off guard (taken as by a thief in the night), is because they're always watching as they were commanded to do.

 

[Rachel20]

There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

You're begging the question in expecting earthquakes & tribulation in scriptures that deal with the rapture.

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

Rev 4:1-2
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[Timtofly]

Except everyone who actually reads the Bible:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

And:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 7 are not the same scene.

Revelation 7 contains martyrs starting with Abel to Stephen. The great tribulation was from Stephen until the 6th Seal. The AC did not kill Abel. Cain killed Abel. The AC did not stone Stephen. The Jewish Sanhedrin did. Acts 6:12-15

12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

Satan's 42 months is not even the time of unprecedented tribulation:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The length of time shortened is the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

Satan gets 42 months per Revelation 13. John does not say what that time is like in any verse. That time is a solid 42 months if 1 second. It is not shortened. Since John does not state if that time is bad or good, we cannot assume at all what it will be like. Satan is in charge, not God. The only time of unprecedented tribulation that is left is the time of the Trumpets and Thunders. Those judgments come from God and are unprecedented. They happen before Satan, the FP, and beast set up rule in Jerusalem. This time is when the Lamb and angels are removing souls out of their bodies and sending them to life or damnation. The sheep separated from the goats. The tares separated from the wheat. All prior to the 7th Trumpet. No one is martyred. All these souls are harvested like Jesus taught in His parables.

In Satan's 42 months people are beheaded to avoid the mark. The mark is given at the point one's name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 13:8

8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.

Revelation 14:9-11
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will indeed drink the wine of God’s fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb, and the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and ever. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name.”

During Satan's 42 months there are 2 options:

Recieve the mark. Chop your head off to avoid the mark. The verses above show the results of taking the mark. Revelation 20:4 shows many chose wisely.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years."

Yes many are beheaded during Satan's 42 months. They live on earth.

Those in Revelation 7 are in Paradise the temple of God. That is the entire church including many martyrs from Abel to now.

 

[Timtofly]

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

The resurrection comes before the rapture.
The resurrection and rapture takes place at His coming.

The destruction of the antichrist takes place at His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

His coming takes place at the end of the age, on the last day.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40

• The resurrection takes place before the rapture, at His coming.
• The resurrection takes place on the last day.
• The destruction of the wicked including the antichrist takes place at His coming.

JLB

It is always imminent for those alive. Tribulation has been nonstop since at least the Cross. Jesus places tribulation in the context of Cain killing Abel. Matthew 23:35 Luke 11:51.

Since tribulation is nonstop, all events are post trib. Jesus coming and dying on the Cross was post trib. It was pre-trib, and mid-trib. John the Baptist was in prison and beheaded while Jesus and the disciples were out obeying God.

The Second Coming shows us Christ on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. While unprecedented tribulation is going on, the Lamb and 144k Jewish male virgins will be on the earth obeying God. This will be a very different type of tribulation. Not necessarily persecution. The 6th Seal will completely re-arrange the geography. No more 7 continents. It will be a single one. Nations will be in upheaval unprecedented even more so than Noah's Flood. For one thing no one will die, while destruction and fire are cleansing the earth of all man's works. It will not be a smooth transition. It will be a turbulent change.

Death will be handed out on God’s schedule. God will be in total control, as He will be present on His Throne for all to see Who is in charge.

No one knows the time or length of the Trumpets and Thunders.

At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, will be the determination if Satan even gets a 42 month extension. Mark 12:9

9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come, destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others!

The Second Coming is the removal of the church. The apostate church will be destroyed. If necessary, the vineyard will be given to Satan.

The prayer and hope should be that the vineyard not be given over to Satan. Most seem to look in anticipation for an AC to come and "save the day".

 

[rockytopva]

If this event is not pretrib it would be rather well announced and not as a thief in the night and in times unlooked for.

 

[trophy33]

If this event is not pretrib it would be rather well announced and not as a thief in the night and in times unlooked for.

As a thief in the night - to unbelieving Jews who did not know what is happening to them until it was too late.

 

[rockytopva]

How are we going to return with Christ if we are not first called away in seemly normal times and unlooked for?

 

[trophy33]

How are we going to return with Christ if we are not first called away in seemly normal times and unlooked for?

We? Where do you read anything about us living today?

 

[Berean Tim]

If this event is not pretrib it would be rather well announced and not as a thief in the night and in times unlooked for.

.....as in the days of Noah. The days of Noah are found in Genesis 6, the world was full of violence. But people went on about their lives until the rain came and swept them all away. That is the meaning of "a thief in the night" and "the days of Noah" those not looking for Jesus won't recognize the days we're in.
I believe we're very close !!!!

Mark 13:37What I say to you, I say to all: ‘Stay alert!’”

 

[sovereigngrace]

You're begging the question in expecting earthquakes & tribulation in scriptures that deal with the rapture.



Rev 4:1-2
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I am not arguing against a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. It is there for all to see. What is not there is your Pretrib scenario. Neither is it anywhere else in Scripture. It has to be forced into the text.

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

The fact is, this is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

Rev 4:1-2
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

Denis Lyle in his book ‘Countdown to Apocalypse’ outlines the traditional pretribulation notion, that this chapter is an allusion to the rapture of the Church. He then confidently explains, “the ‘Come up hither’ of Revelation 4:1 is the rapture” (p. 162). Notwithstanding, he fails in any way to support this strange view. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:

Revelation 17:1-3 in the same way says, “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Merrill C. Tenney writes, “There is no convincing reason why the seer’s being ‘in the Spirit’ and being called to heaven typifies the rapture of the church any more than his being taken into the wilderness to view Babylon [17:3] indicates that the church is there in exile.” (Interpreting Revelation).

Revelation 21:9-10 in the same way says, “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Three times John is commanded “come hither” and all three times he is expressly “in the spirit.” All three passages closely mirror each other, in the sense that they describe the same supernatural manner in which John received the visions. Notwithstanding, none of them make the slightest allusion to the catching away of the saints.

Revelation 4:1-2 “come up hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 17:1-3 “come hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 21:9-10 “come hither” “in the spirit”

If the Pretribbers insist on Revelation 4:1-2 being a definite record of the rapture then they must also accept Revelation 17:1-3 and Revelation 21:9-10 as recording two similar secret raptures. That is if they are going to be consistent.

Significantly, the one passage that does use the same terminology “come up hither” and which is assuredly not speaking of John and consequently him being “in the spirit,” but which undoubtedly does refers to the Second Advent, is the very passage that Pretribbers carefully ignore. In Revelation 11, the two witnesses are symbolically seen lying dead in the street. In Revelation 11:11 we learn, “And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.”

The temple in Revelation 11 is a symbol of the Church (the true professors), the outer-court (which is significantly not measured) is the false professors, the two witnesses are the Word of God and the Spirit of God operating within the Church and within the world currently, which is symbolized here by Jerusalem (Sodom and Egypt). The work of these two witnesses will therefore be killed (or forbidden at the end), dying in the eyes of the world, just prior to the ‘catching away’. Revelation 11:12 continues, “And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

Here is another "Come up hither." One is left wondering if Pretribs would be consistent how many raptures would there be in Revelation? The reality is they cherry-pick their interpretations and are totally inconsistent in their apply of their interpretative mode in their understanding of passages.

We can therefore significantly note, the Pretribs invent a secret rapture in Revelation 4, which has absolutely nothing to do with the event; they then carefully dismiss a clear rapture passage like Revelation 11, one of seven clear rapture records between Revelation 4 and 20.