Does turning my lights on violate the sabbath?

[TzephanYahu]

Hello again @DamianWarS

Why don't people accept this? Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law. (which is sort of the point).

There are indeed some orthodox Jews that don't turn lights on or start a car on the Sabbath. Be careful you don't get sucked down this route...

There are indeed instructions to not light a fire on the Sabbath, but one must put this into context. In order to light a fire you need to do a lot of work. Gathering wood, kindling, building its structure, working hard to create a spark and then fanning the flame. In short - it's definitely work.

Now, turning on a light is largely an automated service running on a lifeless circuit. Yes, people may be working and overseeing the power from certain hubs around the country. However, whether you use a light or not on the Sabbath, they will still be there regardless. They don't work more because of you and the act of you hitting a switch does ring a bell for some poor soul to quickly rush to work for you. Neither is the act of switch a light on hard work for you. So, personally, I say switch on your lights on the Sabbath and be at peace. I do so and feel at peace with the Father on the matter. We all have far bigger issues to worry about than light switches.

Again, when observing the Sabbath its vital to do so with perspective of context and wisdom, so that you don't fall to fear of observance and the day become a burden to you. We are not justified according to the letter of the Law.

We are to be obedient to the Torah but never at the cost of becoming a slave to the commandments and missing the bigger picture. Else we might find that we start to think "I switched on a light switch!! Oh no, my salvation is at risk!!"

Nevertheless, how ugly is the attitude that says "Bah! I don't need to do the Sabbath to be saved, so I won't! It WAS important to God, but now it no longer is as I have Christ who is my Sabbath". I can't imagine hearing men like King David echo this sentiment. But rather synthesise the natural cohesion between the Messiah and Sabbath together in harmony.

You might find this poem useful, which sums up this conflict of opinions on the Sabbath: Views on the Sabbath

Love & Shalom
T

 

[DamianWarS]

No one follows the Spirit of the law by breaking the letter of the law.

I understand your point, It's my contention that no one follows the letter of the law. (or no one I've met)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I understand your point, It my contention that no one follows the letter of the law. (or no one I've met)

This is where we agree to disagree see Romans 8:1-4; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17. We are not to judge someone else's walk with God *Romans 2:1-12; Matthew 7:2-5; Romans 2:21-23 as the Word of God we accept or reject becomes our judge come judgement day *John 12:47-48. Chirstian growth in the bible uses a term called sanctification which is growing in the knowledge of Gods' grace to those who believe and follow Gods' Word. It is the work of a lifetime. Be ye perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect. We are only perfect in Jesus and Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments and what the new covenant is about *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. According to Jesus, unless we are born again we cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7. John says that those who are born again do not practice sin in 1 John 3:4-9. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11. If we are not been born again with a new heart to love we cannot see God's kingdom. Love to God and man is expressed through obedience to God's law not because we are saved by it but because we are already saved by God's grace through faith as a gift of God *Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; 1 John 5:3-4; John 14:15; John 15:10; John 14:23 and are now set free to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4. Those who are born of God in the Spirit according to the scriptures do not practice sin *1 John 3:6; 1 John 2:3-4.

 

[DamianWarS]

Hello again @DamianWarS



There are indeed some orthodox Jews that don't turn lights on or start a car on the Sabbath. Be careful you don't get sucked down this route...

There are indeed instructions to not light a fire on the Sabbath, but one must put this into context. In order to light a fire you need to do a lot of work. Gathering wood, kindling, building its structure, working hard to create a spark and then fanning the flame. In short - it's definitely work.

Now, turning on a light is largely an automated service running on a lifeless circuit. Yes, people may be working and overseeing the power from certain hubs around the country. However, whether you use a light or not on the Sabbath, they will still be there regardless. They don't work more because of you and the act of you hitting a switch does ring a bell for some poor soul to quickly rush to work for you. Neither is the act of switch a light on hard work for you. So, personally, I say switch on your lights on the Sabbath and be at peace. I do so and feel at peace with the Father on the matter. We all have far bigger issues to worry about than light switches.

Again, when observing the Sabbath its vital to do so with perspective of context and wisdom, so that you don't fall to fear of observance and the day become a burden to you. We are not justified according to the letter of the Law.

We are to be obedient to the Torah but never at the cost of becoming a slave to the commandments and missing the bigger picture. Else we might find that we start to think "I switched on a light switch!! Oh no, my salvation is at risk!!"

Nevertheless, how ugly is the attitude that says "Bah! I don't need to do the Sabbath to be saved, so I won't! It WAS important to God, but now it no longer is as I have Christ who is my Sabbath". I can't imagine hearing men like King David echo this sentiment. But rather synthesise the natural cohesion between the Messiah and Sabbath together in harmony.

You might find this poem useful, which sums up this conflict of opinions on the Sabbath: Views on the Sabbath

Love & Shalom
T

I value the sabbath and I have never once said I throw it away. I do however say I do not keep the letter of the law and I happen to believe it is unkeepable (based on the letter of the law).

The Power industry is demand driven and if Christians changed their attitudes regarding consumption on the Sabbath it would have an impact on the industry. I'll conceed I don't know what that impact would look like but that is besides the point. when we use power we feed a demand that directly translates to manpower. the industry is a manpowered industry and when we are plugged into it and use it's services we implictly are in favour of the manpower and if our use is non-essential we are in favour of non-essential manpower. It's not a essential workers only industry, that would be the goal for the Sabbath, but that's not what goes on.

 

[DamianWarS]

We are not to judge someone else's walk with God

I'm not judging your position with God. That's between you and him. I'm looking at actions and saying "that's not keeping Sabbath". (I also don't know how you keep the Sabbath so it's not your actions I'm commenting on) Why do I get to say that? Because I can read the Sabbath laws so I know what is required. How you feel this translates to your position with God may be something else you need to reconcile but I am not suggesting that your version of the sabbath has jeopardised your relationship, salvation, or ability to receive rest with and from God. You still get rest, and if your ways of keeping Sabbath are motivated to worship God then this is a good thing. They just don't keep the letter of the law if your activities on the Sabbath are causing others to work. I'll leave it to you to figure out where you fit or don't fit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You either have the mindset of having 101 excuses why you can't keep the Sabbath or you just keep it, because God asked and you love Him.

If you worry about how others are keeping or not keeping Sabbath as an excuse for you, I would be more concerned about your own walk with God, keeping His commandments and knowing Him on a personal level. He saves and judges us individually.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If all Christians stopped using power on the Sabbath those workers would be cut down. I'm not talking about essential services I'm talking about non-essential. Just because it's the dead of winter and you need heat doesn't mean all power consumption is immediately justified. There is power we consume we require, things like heat (if it's cold) or maybe stuff like 911 services but then there is unnessary power consumption like lights, your alarm clock or freezer. To justify all power consumption because a fraction is needed to sustain life seems to miss the point.

The point I'm making is not because your fridge needs rest or because pushing buttons is a form of work, it's because there's a hamster wheel at the end of the wire that gives you power and the more you use it the more hamsters are needed. If we want to keep sabbath law we should use as little power as possible to give those hamsters at the other end a break.

The problem is that people have a choice about their future etc. I brought up Pacifism and the sects that really practice it (they are not simply draft dodging out of cowardice etc.) for a reason. The Amish, Quakers, various Mennonites have a regular way of life that is more strict than other Christians or believers and their Pacifism is part of that. And I think most Americans who believe in the basic social contract theory/ philosophy of the US would give them that. But one could say, that we are basically taking care of their problems/ doing their share of the work when the various bad guys of history come around. So yes you have a point as far as "the Golden rule" goes. Although in our society it is kind of moot point that we accept and embrace religious diversity.


By the way I will have to bring up this point. Deuteronomy 30:11
The average translation of this and another parallel scripture is the Law is not to difficult! It suppose to say "far off", implying out of reach. And their is another passage that rabbis like to quote about God that states that God is "very near" the believer as well.


Anyway their is a framing issue when it comes to Paul, and nonbelieving rabbis like to bring it up in regards to Christianity. It probably is their best argument against the Faith. If you are a devil in the details person, what does the Bible actually say, and talk about issues like context etc. Paul talks about the Law as something crushing the believer to force them into believing messiah. This is only true when it comes to the idea of someone completely perfectly keeping Torah (not ever needing a sin offering).

But in regards to the early days of Judaism the Law did not feel that way. The demands of the law were completely reasonable and light compared to the demands of Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Things though in the NT were very different because the Romans demanded heavy taxes etc. which caused a lot of labor and drain (some people were suppose to have had malnutrition because of the Roman taxes). And then on top of it you have all the sin offerings and other requirements of the law that made life very hard..

Anyway the law felt different at the end than it did at the beginning. At the beginning it was salvation, not oppression. Nonbelieving Jews do make a strange case for following the spirit of the law etc. and doing so out of joy, love for God etc. that kind of mirrors a Christianity without Christ.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The problem is that people have a choice about their future etc. I brought up Pacifism and the sects that really practice it (they are not simply draft dodging out of cowardice etc.) for a reason. The Amish, Quakers, various Mennonites have a regular way of life that is more strict than other Christians or believers and their Pacifism is part of that. And I think most Americans who believe in the basic social contract theory/ philosophy of the US would give them that. But one could say, that we are basically taking care of their problems when the various bad guys of history come around. So yes you have a point as far as "the Golden rule" goes. Although in our society it is kind of moot point that we accept and embrace religious diversity.


By the way I will have to bring up this point. Deuteronomy 30:11
The average translation of this and another parallel scripture is the Law is not to difficult! It suppose to say "far off", implying out of reach. And their is another passage that rabbis like to quote about God that states that God is "very near" the believer as well.


Anyway their is a framing issue when it comes to Paul, and nonbelieving rabbis like to bring it up in regards to Christianity. It probably is their best argument against the Faith. If you are a devil in the details person, what does the Bible actually say, and talk about issues like context etc. Paul talks about the Law as something crushing the believer to force them into believing messiah. This is only true when it comes to the idea of someone completely perfectly keeping Torah (not ever needing a sin offering).

But in regards to the early days of Judaism the Law did not feel that way. The demands of the law were completely reasonable and light compared to the demands of Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

Things though in the NT were very different because the Romans demanded heavy taxes etc. which caused a lot of labor and drain (some people were suppose to have had malnutrition because of the Roman taxes). And then on top of it you have all the sin offerings and other requirements of the law that made life very hard..

Anyway the law felt different at the end than it did at the beginning. At the beginning it was salvation, not oppression.

The law is only considered "oppression" if you don't understand it. If you do not keep the commandments of God nor really want to, than of course you're going to have that view because you don't really understand. It's sort of like people who never had children telling others who do the right way of raising kids.

God from the beginning made it clear the importance of keeping His commandments. Because of sin, it separated us from God, but when He comes again, we will be together. If you really read the Bible, verses on the importance of keeping Gods commandments are all over both old and new testaments. One of the last verses in the Bible is about the importance of it and its not there by accident.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[BobRyan]

Sabbath law instructs us not to work and not to cause others to work,

Does ignoring the Sabbath as a day of rest, a day of worship, a day for no secular activity - "break" the Sabbath??

If so - then why should one who chooses to do those things take seriously anything about "turning lights on"???

I've met no one who wants to take it this far but the fact remains is using these services creates a demand

Not for those who have solar and gas powered homes.
And as you and I already discussed - in Israel they did have fires on Sabbath - but they were not allowed to "kindle a fire" on Sabbath.

The point remains.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

it's not my conviction to follow the letter of the law but that doesn't change the letter of the law. however, with that said I do think mass fasting of these things of "convenience" to serve our mission would effectively get a message across and turn heads that could be used to proclaim God's glory and have a positive impact. Since no one participates on this level it's not something I see as realistic nor is it a passion project of mine. I show Christ other ways to others and proclaim his rest.

1) I have to admit when people beat the Sabbath drum I got to bring up Passover. Somewhere in between AD 70 and where the Talmud era started to be put together great liberties were taken with how this holiday was celebrated... Jews and Messianics are OK with that even though many people today actually have the capacity to follow the mitzoh as written. But the actual buying, killing, door post painting thing has gone out of fashion roughly 19 centuries ago.


2) Recently I listened to Genesis on Bible gateway. (I like to go through the entire Bible by having it read to me via the audio function that can play NIV and KJV). I was really struck by the passage of God speaking to Abraham on circumcision. With all the sabbath keeping drama etc. that is a great passage to keep in mind. The notion that the early Church and Jewish believers would be hung up on circumcision really makes sense when you consider the passage especially in its context as taking place before the Mosaic covenant, of being described as a sign of all "Children of Abraham" etc. Basically before the NT comes into place their is a much stronger argument to made that everybody should be circumcised! Basically their is no textual evidence that Sabbath keeping was something that was really kept by believers pre-Moses other than the Genesis passage, rabbinic interpretation (which insists it was kept by the patriarchs), and a passage in Deuteronomy speaking about God's law being eternal which is somehow proof texting that this also had to be done in the beginning.

Anyway their is a principle of epistemology that some practice (the writer, cartoonist Scott Adams comes to mind) where the way to get at truth is a little bit of an Occam's razor but in this case it is dealing with the strongest argument made for something (If you can knock down the strongest argument then you should not take the other ones that seriously). And well it seems to me, that when it comes to the New Testament and the argument of do believers have to become Jewish or other follow Jewish laws to be saved etc. That kind of principle was already addressed when it comes to Circumcision. Because there is more stuff to Circumcision than the other stuff people argue with today like Sabbath keeping etc. But because those arguments are so old they are readily accepted and treated like an Economia or loosened halacha rather than the profound theological statement that they were at that time.


And of course studying Early Church history like the Apostolic Fathers it seems like the early church also agreed. This further reinforced when you study the history of heresy and groups like the Ebionites etc.


3) I will also add this in closing before I forget.

Mark 7:19
New International Version

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

This parenthetic/scribal remark is further evidence that the early church did not agree that Law was binding on gentiles etc. (Very interesting when paired with the metaphorical vision of Peter prior to meeting Cornelius and cited in the Acts 15 Jerusalem counsel).

 

[BobRyan]

1) I have to admit when people beat the Sabbath drum I got to bring up Passover. .

Sounds like a different topic.

Were you meaning to start a "how to keep Passover" thread??

 

[DamianWarS]

Does ignoring the Sabbath as a day of rest, a day of worship, a day for no secular activity - "break" the Sabbath??

If so - then why should one who chooses to do those things take seriously anything about "turning lights on"???

I never said I ignore the day. I just admit I cannot keep the letter of law.

Not for those who have solar and gas powered homes.
And as you and I already discussed - in Israel they did have fires on Sabbath - but they were not allowed to "kindle a fire" on Sabbath.

The point remains.

You missed the point. It's not about the work it creates for us. It about the work we are create for others. It really doesn't matter what fire is lit or not lit, solar or gas, if our activities are causing others to work on the Sabbath then we are breaking the letter of the law.

Solar and gas may avoid this (gas seems more of a heat/cooking thing unless people have gas powered generators). But the electrical grid is one of many systems we are plugged into. Cell phones, internet, cable, are others. Solar and gas maybe a start but your points show you're not taking responsibility for the issue. The issue is causing others to work on the Sabbath.

 

[DamianWarS]

The law is only considered "oppression" if you don't understand it. If you do not keep the commandments of God nor really want to, than of course you're going to have that view because you don't really understand. It's sort of like people who never had children telling others who do the right way of raising kids.

God from the beginning made it clear the importance of keeping His commandments. Because of sin, it separated us from God, but when He comes again, we will be together. If you really read the Bible, verses on the importance of keeping Gods commandments are all over both old and new testaments. One of the last verses in the Bible is about the importance of it and its not there by accident.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Conflating the word commandments with keeping the Sabbath in the NT is an interpretation of convenience that I disagree with.

We live as kings compared to the wealthy of the ancient world today with our modern conveniences. The law does not factor in pushing a button to heat up last night's supper but it does tell us we shouldn't cause others to work. If you are connected to the power grid then pushing that button on the sabbath does exactly that.

 

[Studyman]

Sabbath law instructs us not to work and not to cause others to work,

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What the Pharisees did was create their own sabbath, then judge others according to their own standards. Their sabbath wasn't God's Sabbath that Jesus walked in. It was their own creation.

In like fashion, you have also created your own sabbath, and are making judgments based on your own standards.

Did I dig the trench from the power pole to the house on God's Sabbath? No!! I prepared for God's Sabbath by doing all this work during the week. Did I hire a man to dig the trench, hook up my house to power on God's Holy Sabbath? No! I prepared all this during the week. The power is there, did I generate it? If I sit in freezing darkness so that I can meet your standards regarding the Sabbath and work, is the Power still there? Who gave me this Power? Who placed me in a world with 24/7 electricity?

How does it honor God to sit in darkness and freezing cold one day a week when HE has blessed me with Power right outside my house, that HE also blessed me with? How do I Honor God by making my children, HE Gave me, sit in darkness and freezing cold for 24 hours? Is that what God created HIS Sabbath for?

You might do well to actually study the Scriptures before making your judgments about God's Laws.

Is. 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to { sit in darkness and freezing cold}? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

You would do well to think about these Word's before you condemn others regarding God's Holy Sabbath.

Do I cook my food on God's Sabbath? NO! I prepare food during the week so I don't do "Servile work", on the Sabbath. Did I hire a man and pay him to generate power? So then, where is my transgression of God's Sabbaths? In your religious philosophy, that God created Laws to make me sit in a freezing house with no light, to honor God on HIS Sabbath? Is this what you think of the God of Abraham?

I may be transgressing your sabbath or the mainstream preachers of Jesus time's sabbaths. But not God's sabbath.

Did the righteous men cut wood, stack it, and haul it into their homes on the Sabbath in Moses time? NO! They prepared during the week. Did they keep their fire to heat their home burning on the Sabbath? Sure. They had prepared ahead of time, so now all they need to do is throw a log they had already cut, already brought into their house, on a fire already built, to keep their home warm as they eat bread they had already prepared, in honor of God's Holy Sabbath.

Your questions expose an incredible lack of understanding about God's Sabbath and God's Character overall .

yet we are doing just that when we flick a light on during the Sabbath. I've met no one who wants to take it this far but the fact remains is using these services creates a demand for people to work to keep these services running. If we are using them for non-essential reasons we are violating the sabbath because we are contributing to unnecessary demand that causes people to work. Why don't people accept this?

I can't speak for others, only for myself. I don't accept your sabbath because you are not the Christ, your sabbath is not His. You have made it clear you have no respect for this Christ's Sabbath that HE created for you. You certainly don't know anything about it. So just as Jesus didn't "Accept" the condemnation of the mainstream preachers of HIS Time which also accused HIM of breaking God's Sabbath, which HE didn't. So I also don't "Accept" your condemnation of breaking HIS Sabbath, that I am not breaking by typing on this computer, with the lights on and the fire going to keep my family warm.

Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law. (which is sort of the point). I'll admit I can't keep the Sabbath yet God still gives me his rest (and he gives the Sabbath keepers who also don't keep the Sabbath rest too)

No one can keep your sabbath maybe. But Faithful men have been keeping God's Sabbath since Abel and Abraham.

Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

1 Kings 9:4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

Luke 1:5T here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So your religious philosophy: "Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law.", is just that, your religious philosophy, not the Christ of the Bible's. You are attempting to "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but you will not move them with one of your fingers".

You are free to reject God's Sabbath. It's something you must be persuaded of in your own mind.

But you are not just rejected the Christ's Sabbaths, you are promoting falsehoods about them. Telling folks things about God and His Sabbath that are untrue.

This is why I respond to your posts. To share what God actually says to battle against all the winds of doctrines bandied about in the religions of the land I was born into. Religious philosophies God warned against over and over and over and over.

I hope you might reconsider your philosophy, given the Scriptures I have posted.

 

[DamianWarS]

that is within thy gates:

Right, so as long as you import that power into your gates then it doesn't matter how they make it right? They could be burning aborted babbies to generate power but because it's beyond your feild of vision it's not your responsibility. I think you've missed the point of the Sabbath. Perhaps you should start shopping within your own gates to get power and see what it takes flick the lights on.

 

[Studyman]

Right, so as long as you import that power into your gates then it doesn't matter how they make it right? They could be burning aborted babbies to generate power but because it's beyond your feild of vision it's not your responsibility. I think you've missed the point of the Sabbath. Perhaps you should start shopping within your own gates to get power and see what it takes flick the lights on.

I'm quite sure God isn't providing power to the home HE blessed me with, by burning aborted babies. As a matter of fact, I know exactly how and from what the Power HE provided for me is from. The fact that your mind would go there, is quite fascinating.

Of course in your sabbath, I would be bound to live in cold darkness, and couldn't even take a sick kid to the hospital God provided to me, because according to your sabbath, God would consider making a DR. work to help my kid or a brother in Christ, a Sin against Almighty God. The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time believed the exact same way.

What is sad, is that you have been convinced of this character of God. That HE created such a commandment "for men". I don't know what "voice" convinced you of this, but it wasn't from the Holy Scriptures.

God's Sabbath is a Fast/rest from the chaos and wicked influence of the prince of this world. Of course this prince doesn't want us fasting from it's influence, therefore all the "other voices" which preach against the Christ's Sabbaths. I for one, am forever grateful to the Christ for creating this Fast for me. I could not withstand the wiles of the prince of this world without the Armor the Christ created for me.

"Many" as it is written, will try to "Endure" to the end by following another way. There are a lot of folks walking that Path. I am convinced this Christ of the Bible knows more than I, therefore, I place my Faith in Him and His Word's. But this is a free will choice each man must be fully persuaded in their own minds of.

 

[DamianWarS]

I'm quite sure God isn't providing power to the home HE blessed me with, by burning aborted babies. As a matter of fact, I know exactly how and from what the Power HE provided for me is from. The fact that your mind would go there, is quite fascinating.

So God blesses you with power by others dishonring the sabbath? You refuse one but accept the other? Which one should I believe? If you don't like aborted babies then replace it with a lying machine that generates power from lies, the point still remains if sabbath law is a moral sin then don't refuse one moral sin but turn a blind eye to another. Of course you could try and make your own electricity on the Sabbath and see how much non-essential work it takes.

Of course in your sabbath, I would be bound to live in cold darkness, and couldn't even take a sick kid to the hospital God provided to me, because according to your sabbath, God would consider making a DR. work to help my kid or a brother in Christ, a Sin against Almighty God. The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time believed the exact same way.

The point is about non-essetial use of power not essential use so your hospital analogy doesn't fit. You are no more bound to live in cold darkness than an ancient Hebrew was.

What is sad, is that you have been convinced of this character of God. That HE created such a commandment "for men". I don't know what "voice" convinced you of this, but it wasn't from the Holy Scriptures.

I'm not speaking of the character of God I am addressing how the sabbath law is incompatible with modern living nor is it designed for it. Because of Christ you have access to his rest and he is still good, regardless how you practice the sabbath. His character is intact, you still get rest, but the sabbath law can't be kept by our own foolish means (like turning off the lights).

God's Sabbath is a Fast/rest from the chaos and wicked influence of the prince of this world. Of course this prince doesn't want us fasting from it's influence, therefore all the "other voices" which preach against the Christ's Sabbaths. I for one, am forever grateful to the Christ for creating this Fast for me. I could not withstand the wiles of the prince of this world without the Armor the Christ created for me.

Agreed, nor am I rejecting this. I'm stating the letter of the law is incompatible with modern living.

"Many" as it is written, will try to "Endure" to the end by following another way. There are a lot of folks walking that Path. I am convinced this Christ of the Bible knows more than I, therefore, I place my Faith in Him and His Word's. But this is a free will choice each man must be fully persuaded in their own minds of.

I am not bound to the letter of the law I am bound to Christ, therefore, I place my faith in Him and His words.

 

[DamianWarS]

You either have the mindset of having 101 excuses why you can't keep the Sabbath or you just keep it, because God asked and you love Him.

If you worry about how others are keeping or not keeping Sabbath as an excuse for you, I would be more concerned about your own walk with God, keeping His commandments and knowing Him on a personal level. He saves and judges us individually.

Online forums gives everyone a voice and everyone a platform. I'm arguing the logic and I'm not judging your efforts. I understand the two can seem like one but I am strictly looking at the law of the sabbath, applying it to modern living and reconziing where it doesn't fit. You are charged to listen to God not me. Sabbath foreshadows salvation this is why it is given to even animals, slaves and foriengers all individuals who do not have means to rest unless it is given to them. In similar way we have no ability to have salvation unless it is given to us. The purpose behind giving it to all is to declare God's salvation is available to all, if we desire to continue to echo this through the law then we need to make sure those who do not have access to God's rest are considered as we are resting. My contention is that the letter of the law is no longer compatible with modern living and although turning off the lights is in the direction of keeping the law it misses the point and we can still allow others to experience God's rest regardless what we do with our lights (or for that matter with our work)

 

[Studyman]

So God blesses you with power by others dishonring the sabbath? You refuse one but accept the other? Which one should I believe? If you don't like aborted babies then replace it with a lying machine that generates power from lies, the point still remains if sabbath law is a moral sin then don't refuse one moral sin but turn a blind eye to another. Of course you could try and make your own electricity on the Sabbath and see how much non-essential work it takes.

The Bible says This world hates the God of the Bible, and has always judged Him and His Commandments as beneath them and their respect. It's a choice they make to reject God's Commandment.

However, me being born into this land wasn't a choice I made. Being born in this time wasn't a choice I made.

I posted where God makes known to HIS People what the Sabbath fast is for. You ignore His Word's it seems, because you are not here to examine His Word's, rather, you are here to promote your own religious philosophy.

Joshua 24:13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labour, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.

Everything in the Land I was born into is created by men who despise God's Sabbaths. Shall I dishonor HIM just because they do? Shall I mock Him and His Instructions just because it is common for religious men to do?

14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Your religious philosophy that I can't obey God without living in some dark cave might sell in the religious franchises you have adopted. But nevertheless, this philosophy is not supported by the Word of God.

The point is about non-essetial use of power not essential use so your hospital analogy doesn't fit. You are no more bound to live in cold darkness than an ancient Hebrew was.

This is "your" point and "your" excuse for rejecting God's Commandment. It is true, I am not bound by God's Law to live in cold darkness. Just as Jesus wasn't bound to follow the religious philosophies of the Mainstream preachers of HIS Time. Your preaching that I must live in cold darkness to honor God in His Sabbath is foolishness and exposes your lack of understanding, both of the God of the Bible, and of His Sabbath. I posted some of His Word's which detail the purpose of God's Sabbaths, but you ignored them as if they were not written. In the "Way of the Lord" of the Bible there is a Sabbath.

Nothing in 2021 changes this Biblical Truth.

Being born into a Land in which homes are powered by electricity is not a religious tradition. Religious men rejecting God's commandments is a popular religious tradition. This is truth.

I'm not speaking of the character of God I am addressing how the sabbath law is incompatible with modern living nor is it designed for it. Because of Christ you have access to his rest and he is still good, regardless how you practice the sabbath. His character is intact, you still get rest, but the sabbath law can't be kept by our own foolish means (like turning off the lights).

That is your religious philosophy. That Christ's Sabbath, that the Christ created for man, is not compatible with modern living. That somehow God didn't know, when HE created His Commandments, that I would be born into a land in which homes are hooked up to an electrical grid.

My point is that religious men have been rejecting and polluting God's Sabbaths long before there was an electrical Grid. I posted God's Word which clearly show this. You ignore them.

Paul said these Word's were written Specifically for us, our time.

1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Your preaching that the Christ didn't know, when HE inspired Paul to write this, that I would be born into a land in which homes are hooked to an electrical grid, is not Truth in my view.

Agreed, nor am I rejecting this. I'm stating the letter of the law is incompatible with modern living.

That is what the serpent convinced Eve of, right after it convinced her she was already saved, already immortal.

Can you show me even one Prophesy in the Law and Prophets when there would come a time when God's Commandments wouldn't be compatible for modern men? I see the Word's of God telling me there is nothing New under the sun. I see the Word's of God telling me men will come in Christ's Name to deceive. I see the prophesy that religious men will become more corrupt and more evil as time goes on. But I don't see any prophesy of a time when God's Commandments are not compatible for the men of the world.

I have Paul telling me:

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

This is what I mean about your implication of God's Character. You are implying that God either lied to us, or HE just didn't know I would be born into a Land hooked up to an electrical Grid when He inspired this to be written.

I don't believe either is true. I think it is you who are in error. Not the Lord of the Sabbath.

I am not bound to the letter of the law I am bound to Christ, therefore, I place my faith in Him and His words.

You can thank the Lord of the Sabbath that you are not bound by the letter of the law. If you were bound by the letter of the law you would be nothing but bones now. But the Same Christ who created His Laws, Statutes and Commandments, shed HIS Blood so that we have the opportunity to repent from our rebellious indifference and disrespect to Him and HIS commandments.

But to go around preaching to the world that God's Commandment isn't compatible for modern living?

This philosophy is an ancient religious doctrine which originated in the Garden of Eden. I hope you might consider God's own definition of His Sabbath fast, and separate yourself from such foolishness. But ultimately it is your choice, and yours alone.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Online forums gives everyone a voice and everyone a platform. I'm arguing the logic and I'm not judging your efforts. I understand the two can seem like one but I am strictly looking at the law of the sabbath, applying it to modern living and reconziing where it doesn't fit. You are charged to listen to God not me. Sabbath foreshadows salvation this is why it is given to even animals, slaves and foriengers all individuals who do not have means to rest unless it is given to them. In similar way we have no ability to have salvation unless it is given to us. The purpose behind giving it to all is to declare God's salvation is available to all, if we desire to continue to echo this through the law then we need to make sure those who do not have access to God's rest are considered as we are resting. My contention is that the letter of the law is no longer compatible with modern living and although turning off the lights is in the direction of keeping the law it misses the point and we can still allow others to experience God's rest regardless what we do with our lights (or for that matter with our work)

There is more to it than just keeping the letter of the law, which is important, but you can't really do it without the spirit of the law, some of your questions and the way they are positioned is probably one of the reasons God made the second covenant. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The Sabbath very much fits in today and while we advance as a culture, the same 10 commandments applies today as it did when it was spoken and written by God's hand. To think otherwise is allowing man to dictate over God. Should we lie, steal, murder, covet, vain His name? The Sabbath is no different and yes it can be kept today. It's just a matter of priorities.

Turning on a light so you can fellowship, read the Bible is not breaking the Sabbath. This question seems like one of the Pharisees who was mocking Jesus for doing good on Sabbath. Turning on the light takes a second, it requires no thought and used for good so one can read the Word of God. If my lights went out, calling a electrician and having the electrical work on Sabbath, that would be because that is work, requires a lot of thought on something other than Jesus. If my electricity went out and my mother was on a ventilator and would die without electricity than that is another story.

Do you have any desire to try and keep the Sabbath or are these questions more for entertainment sake?