Does turning my lights on violate the sabbath?

[DamianWarS]

Sabbath law instructs us not to work and not to cause others to work, yet we are doing just that when we flick a light on during the Sabbath. I've met no one who wants to take it this far but the fact remains is using these services creates a demand for people to work to keep these services running. If we are using them for non-essential reasons we are violating the sabbath because we are contributing to unnecessary demand that causes people to work. Why don't people accept this? Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law. (which is sort of the point). I'll admit I can't keep the Sabbath yet God still gives me his rest (and he gives the Sabbath keepers who also don't keep the Sabbath rest too)

 

[ewq1938]

Sabbath law instructs us not to work and not to cause others to work, yet we are doing just that when we flick a light on during the Sabbath.

Well ask yourself if Jews in the OT had any light sources other than the sun on a Sabbath? I think it was dark at night on a Sabbath because no fire was allowed.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well ask yourself if Jews in the OT had any light sources other than the sun on a Sabbath? I think it was dark at night on a Sabbath because no fire was allowed.

Indeed

Ex 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Building a fire takes work so I get why it was restricted for Israelites. Fires were used for cooking, and a light and heat source (and it gets cold in Israel so the last one would be difficult in cold seasons) candels were probably used for light as well and I don't think they were banned during sabbath, so I don't think they were in the dark.

Today we don't make the power, the power is made somewhere else and sent to us. We're not doing the work but we are causing others to work. It's like if the Israelites got someone from the outside to bring them cut up wood and build them fires. It violates the same commandment. Use candels instead and leave the lights off.

 

[ewq1938]

Indeed

Ex 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Building a fire takes work so I get why it was restricted for Israelites. Fires were used for cooking, and a light and heat source (and it gets cold in Israel so the last one would be difficult in cold seasons) candels were probably used for light as well and I don't think they were banned during sabbath, so I don't think they were in the dark.

Today we don't make the power, the power is made somewhere else and sent to us. We're not doing the work but we are causing others to work. It's like if the Israelites got someone from the outside to bring them cut up wood and build them fires. It violates the same commandment. Use candels instead and leave the lights off.

Using candles simply sidesteps the command not to have fire just as getting someone else to do things not allowed on the Sabbath for you. I think turning electric lights on also violates the spirit of the command.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Sabbath law instructs us not to work and not to cause others to work, yet we are doing just that when we flick a light on during the Sabbath. I've met no one who wants to take it this far but the fact remains is using these services creates a demand for people to work to keep these services running. If we are using them for non-essential reasons we are violating the sabbath because we are contributing to unnecessary demand that causes people to work. Why don't people accept this? Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law. (which is sort of the point). I'll admit I can't keep the Sabbath yet God still gives me his rest (and he gives the Sabbath keepers who also don't keep the Sabbath rest too)

lol yeah I was going to respond to the other thread and raise the exact same point. There is however some halacha issues to keep in mind, especially when it comes to technology. Their are certain forms of labor allowed on the sabbath such as the act of eating, the teaching of Torah, walking around the house and to a synagogue if one is near where you live etc. And those things would have been largely understood from the days of Moses to Jesus.

Anyway I think the little amount of work needed to push the button in an over or to lift a light switch would easily fit some of the acceptable needed work like the allowance of steps given for people so they can go to the bathroom, go to the dinner table etc.

Besides this I would also mention of the need for things like armed guards. The Jews at different times had post guards on the sabbath, historically speaking (like during the Roman wars). The chapter of David vs. Goliath mentions that conflict went on 40 days... not posting a guard on the sabbath would be making yourself a sitting duck.


Anyway I understand that the needs for things like military operating was a recognized need, as was things like rescuing people and animals per the Gospels. Basically things you need for survival were accepted so I believe that kind of rational would probably allow things like kindling fire in the dead of winter so you don't freeze etc.

 

[DamianWarS]

Using candles simply sidesteps the command not to have fire just as getting someone else to do things not allowed on the Sabbath for you. I think turning electric lights on also violates the spirit of the command.

Our modern society makes this nearly impossible as so many things we do that appear automated require people to work in the background (just having our cell phones on causes people to work unless you go in airplane mode). Even if you turn off your lights all kinds of appliances are continuously using power unnecessarily. Best to disconnect from the grid and melting ice in a freezer is not a good excuse to violate the sabbath. But this is not facetious. If all Christians went off the grid on Saturday it would have a dramatic impact on demand and cause people to turn their heads. If the sabbath law is important this sort of impact seems like a laudable goal. Is anyone willing to go this far?

 

[DamianWarS]

Anyway I think the little amount of work needed to push the button in an over or to lift a light switch would easily fit some of the acceptable needed work like the allowance of steps given for people so they can go to the bathroom, go to the dinner table etc.

My father used to work shift work at a power plan (he still does but technically he's retired and it's no longer shift work). I can assure you he was doing more than eating, walking and pushing buttons on the sabbath (he might be doing that now). He was there because there was a demand for him to be there because people were using power that they could live without.

The sabbath law is not just around the individual it's also about those around us and we should not be causing them to do work so we don't have to. If we do, we are in violation of sabbath law.

It's not about us flicking a switch, that's not the point, it's about others doing labour so we can flick that switch. We wouldn't do it if we had a donkey in the backyard turning a mill to generate power or 10,000 hamsters in hamster wheels. But for some reason when people who we don't see or know are doing it miles away then it doesn't count.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So get a Tesla power wall. Disconnect from the grid every "sabbath."

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's an interesting point, but your always going to have essential workers, working on the weekend. I've actually worked my share of graveyard shift jobs that usually involved working on the weekend.

This also makes me think of some related issues like what about Pacifists? Should we allow some groups to be Conscientious Objectors and not fight wars when the rest of us have to?

 

[DamianWarS]

It's an interesting point, but your always going to have essential workers, working on the weekend. I've actually worked my share of graveyard shift jobs that usually involved working on the weekend.

This also makes me think of some related issues like what about Pacifists? Should we allow some groups to be Conscientious Objectors and not fight wars when the rest of us have to?

If all Christians stopped using power on the Sabbath those workers would be cut down. I'm not talking about essential services I'm talking about non-essential. Just because it's the dead of winter and you need heat doesn't mean all power consumption is immediately justified. There is power we consume we require, things like heat (if it's cold) or maybe stuff like 911 services but then there is unnessary power consumption like lights, your alarm clock or freezer. To justify all power consumption because a fraction is needed to sustain life seems to miss the point.

The point I'm making is not because your fridge needs rest or because pushing buttons is a form of work, it's because there's a hamster wheel at the end of the wire that gives you power and the more you use it the more hamsters are needed. If we want to keep sabbath law we should use as little power as possible to give those hamsters at the other end a break.

 

[DamianWarS]

So get a Tesla power wall. Disconnect from the grid every "sabbath."

Do Sabbath keepers do this? And that's the power grid, what about other grids like phone, internet, tv, etc. Maybe 100 years ago it was simple to go off the grid but today there are a lot of systems we are plugged into that cause work for them to function. Do you use your car on the sabbath to do unnessary activities? When we fill the roads with traffic on the Sabbath we are contributing to a demand to keep all kinds of services running. With less traffic that demand decreases and with that the need for people to work. Christians are a majority (in the west) and if we actually kept the sabbath a lot of people would notice and it would impact the entire system and actually give sabbath to people who are not seeking it. But we don't keep sabbath law do we (and have no intention to keep it) and so we don't allow others to experience it with us.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This post is written to no one personally. It is only an observation of the scriptures that I thought was interesting in regards to the OP topic so thought I would write on it here.

THE SCENARIO OF JESUS BREAKING THE SABBATH IN THE EYES OF THE RELIGIOUS TEACHERS

Can you imagine this scenario? We have JESUS the creator of heaven and earth who made the Sabbath yet the Scribes and Pharisees straining at the gnat to swallow a camel with all their man-made teachings and traditions around how the Sabbath must be kept, accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath for healing and doing good on the Sabbath?

According to Jesus many in His day were seeking to justify their man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God rather then follow God and His Word. These religious teachers did all this under the guise of pretentious religion. According to Jesus, they appeared outwardly righteous to men yet they were inwardly full of dead mans bones accusing Jesus who made the Sabbath for all mankind of breaking the Sabbath while secretly plotting to kill him.

Their claim to being God's children they said was because they were the seed of Abraham, while Jesus was very clear when he said if Abraham were your father you would do the works of Abraham. Jesus told them who their father really was in John 8:31-44 and it was not God.

JESUS says to these religious teachers who knowingly follow their man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that they are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9.

So the question we should all be asking ourselves is who do we believe and follow; God or man *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29? God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:24. Yet instead of receiving God's Word those who did not believe and follow God's Word accused the very Word of God of breaking his own Words and were seeking to silence him so they could continue breaking his commandments and following their own teachings and traditions.

I believe God is calling us all out from following these man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God, as it is written, Babylon has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12, and the hour has come and now is that God's true worshipers will hear his voice and follow him *John 4:23-24. God's sheep hear his voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow according to the scriptures *John 10:26-27.

For me personally I just see much of what people say sometimes as excuse to try to justify sin and the teachings and traditions of men that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9.

We all know according to the scriptures if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Gods Word says sin is the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4 and that it is only through the law that we know what sin is *Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20.

So if we continue in known unrepentant sin when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31, do we receive Gods' forgiveness of sin if we do not seek God in repentance and confession of sin *1 John 1:9; Matthew 3:2; Acts of the Apostles 2:38 ? YES/NO?

What do the scriptures say about those who continue in known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and reject it in Hebrews 10:26-31?

I write everything here to no one personally and I include myself in this same post and for me it is something I pray about. Who are we believing and following; God or man? This is why we are told to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith or not *2 Corinthians 13:5

May we all receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

 

[DamianWarS]

Can you imagine this scenario? We have JESUS the creator of heaven and earth who made the Sabbath yet the Scribes and Pharisees straining at the gnat to swallow a camel with all their man made teachings and traditions around how the Sabbath must be kept, accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath for healing and doing good on the Sabbath?

According to Jesus many in His day were seeking to justify their man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God rather then follow God and His Word. JESUS says that all those who knowingly follow their man-made teachings that break the commandments of God are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. So the question we should all ask ourselves is who do we believe and follow; God or man *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29? God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:24.

I believe God is calling us all out from following these man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God, as it is written, Babylon has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12, and the hour has come and now is that God's true worshipers will hear his voice and follow him *John 4:23-24. God's sheep hear his voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow according to the scriptures *John 10:26-27.

For me personally I just see much of what has been provided here in the OP topic as excuse to try to justify sin and the teachings and traditions of men that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9. We all know according to the scriptures if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. As posted to you in another thread according to the scriptures

ALL God's commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) are moral laws. This can be proven in the scriptures and original languages. This claim that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is a "cereminial law" in the new covenant is simply unbiblical.

Gods Word says sin is the transgression of breaking of the law in 1 John 3:4 and that it is only through the law that we know what sin is *Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20.

So if we continue in known unrepentant sin when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31, do we receive Gods' forgiveness of sin *1 John 1:9 if we do not seek God in repentance and confession of sin? YES/NO?

What happens to those who continue in known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and reject it *Hebrews 10:26-31?

It's what the sabbath explicitly requires and there is nothing made up or added. Our activities must not cause someone else to work, and if they do and are non-essential then we have broken the sabbath.

If we rang a bell to prompt someone in our basement to turn a generator to give us electricity then we would say this is against the sabbath. What exactly do you think is happening when you flick a light switch? The bell is the demand, the person turning the generator are the hundreds required to keep a power plant going and the demand met. If we decrease the demand (by not consuming power) fewer people are needed to create the power and more may rest because of our sacrafice. Or are these workers outside of God's sabbath? While we enjoy our rest at home others are working to keep us resting.

Sounds like you would rather sweep this under a rug rather than address it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It's what the sabbath explicitly requires and there is nothing made up or added. Our activities must not cause someone else to work, and if they do and are non-essential then we have broken the sabbath.

If we rang a bell to prompt someone in our basement to turn a generator to give us electricity then we would say this is against the sabbath. What exactly do you think is happening when you flick a light switch? The bell is the demand, the person turning the generator are the hundreds required to keep a power plant going and the demand met. If we decrease the demand (by not consuming power) fewer people are needed to create the power and more may rest because of our sacrafice. Or are these workers outside of God's sabbath? While we enjoy our rest at home others are working to keep us resting.

Sounds like you would rather sweep this under a rug rather than address it.

Thank you for the discussion but do you think it is lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? Are you going to turn off the same power that keeps people alive in hospital on life support that is made by the same people that supply electricity to every other building and home that uses power. The power plants provide many essential and emergency services we have today in modern society and without it then the whole system falls over. Can you imagine how much chaos could occur if power was turned off for only one day and how many lives would be lost around the world? The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. You have it mixed up in my view. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath according to Jesus.

 

[DamianWarS]

Thank you for the discussion but do you think it is lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? Are you going to turn off the same power that keeps people alive in hospital on life support that is made by the same people that supply electricity to every other building and home that uses power. The power plants provide many essential and emergency services we have today in modern society and without it then the whole system falls over. Can you imagine how much chaos could occur if power was turned off for only one day? The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. You have it mixed up in my view. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath according to Jesus.

I'm not talking about essential services (like hospitals to keep respirators working) but non-essential things like an alarm clock, television, microwave, lights in your home, a fridge, etc.... If all Christians stop consuming non-essential power during the sabbath it would decrease the demand quite a bit (because we are many) and those industries that provide power would take notice. in the end it would have a product of fewer people needing to work on the Sabbath and would start driving a different sort of demand, a demand to rest. you are welcome to practice the sabbath how you feel you should but don't pretend that your non-essential consumption doesn't increase a demand for people to work on the day you are resting.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm not talking about essential services (like hospitals to keep respirators working) but non-essential things like an alarm clock, television, microwave, lights in your home, a fridge, etc.... If all Christians stop consuming non-essential power during the sabbath it would decrease the demand quite a bit (because we are many) and those industries that provide power would take notice. in the end it would have a product of fewer people needing to work on the Sabbath and would start driving a different sort of demand, a demand to rest. you are welcome to practice the sabbath how you feel you should but don't pretend that your non-essential consumption doesn't increase a demand for people to work on the day you are resting.

How are you going to separate the essential services out from non essential? Most power plants have close to full automation. So what was posted on essential services of course is relevant. What makes it lawful or not lawful is the reason something is being done. For me personally I do not use much power on the Sabbath. I use light to study God's Word and power to share it with others to help myself and others have a closer walk with Jesus. Try turning off your refrigerator in the topics and see how long your food lasts so to me I believe it is essential. I do not use microwave, stove, cooking, etc. TV is rarely on, unless something Sabbath related is shown. Remember the Sabbath was made for men not against man. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath according to Jesus.

 

[DamianWarS]

Try turning off your refrigerator in the topics and see how long your food lasts so to me I believe it is essential.

I live in the tropics too, most people I know don't even own a fridge yet they manage to store and consume food daily. Westerners have diets built around storing a lot of food that the rest of the world sees as odd (and I might add wasteful)

food that spoils in one day is an issue of planning not and issue essential to life. The Israelites gathered twice as much manna before the Sabbath so that they could eat on the Sabbath. If they did any other day the manna would spoil. We know planning for food on the Sabbath is an important value of the sabbath and taking too much was discouraged in general so we shouldn't so easily dismiss food preparation simply because it is too inconvenient for our lifestyles. Change your lifestyle, problem solved.

The sabbath law hasn't changed, we can read it plainly how it was first presented. What has changed is our lifestyles and there are parts of it we see as too inconvenient to "rest" so we say they don't matter because of silly things like electricity wasn't around then.

It's not about flicking a switch, it's about what it takes to get power into your home because you flicked a switch. Power plants are very automated but they require around the clock matainence that is demand driven and isn't automated. Saturdays do not run with essential workers only they run with scheduled around the clock workers. Typically the only ones that get the weekend off are desk jobs. If the entire Christian community stopped non-essential services it would have a direct impact on the demand needed to run these plants and demand for people to work. The industry would take notice and would from that learn about the value of the sabbath, something that may not have been available to them before Ina business as usual day.

The power grid is just one example and we are plugged into many systems that run around the clock and require people to work.

Doing good on the Sabbath is good, no issues there and we can see that as essential as it focuses on spiritual life. But I doubt anyones power consumption on the Sabbath is driven by doing good or essential sevices only and I think it's a bit more than that. Why not get a mule to drive a mill on the Sabbath and see what sort of work is required to produce your power demand? You want do that because it is against the sabbath, why are people at a power plant any different?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I live in the tropics too, most people I know don't even own a fridge yet they manage to store and consume food daily. Westerners have diets built around storing a lot of food that the rest of the world sees as odd (and I might add wasteful)

food that spoils in one day is an issue of planning not and issue essential to life. The Israelites gathered twice as much manna before the Sabbath so that they could eat on the Sabbath. If they did any other day the manna would spoil. We know planning for food on the Sabbath is an important value of the sabbath and taking too much was discouraged in general so we shouldn't so easily dismiss food preparation simply because it is too inconvenient for our lifestyles. Change your lifestyle, problem solved.

The sabbath law hasn't changed, we can read it plainly how it was first presented. What has changed is our lifestyles and there are parts of it we see as too inconvenient to "rest" so we say they don't matter because of silly things like electricity wasn't around then.

It's not about flicking a switch, it's about what it takes to get power into your home because you flicked a switch. Power plants are very automated but they require around the clock matainence that is demand driven and isn't automated. Saturdays do not run with essential workers only they run with scheduled around the clock workers. Typically the only ones that get the weekend off are desk jobs. If the entire Christian community stopped non-essential services it would have a direct impact on the demand needed to run these plants and demand for people to work. The industry would take notice and would from that learn about the value of the sabbath, something that may not have been available to them before Ina business as usual day.

The power grid is just one example and we are plugged into many systems that run around the clock and require people to work.

Doing good on the Sabbath is good, no issues there and we can see that as essential as it focuses on spiritual life. But I doubt anyones power consumption on the Sabbath is driven by doing good or essential sevices only and I think it's a bit more than that. Why not get a mule to drive a mill on the Sabbath and see what sort of work is required to produce your power demand? You want do that because it is against the sabbath, why are people at a power plant any different?

I am sorry I do not see it as you do. Perhaps if you see it the way you do then you should keep the Sabbath that way and follow your conviction? * James 4:17. There is no law against doing good on the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12.

 

[DamianWarS]

I am sorry I do not see it as you do. Perhaps if you see it the way you do then you should keep the Sabbath that way and follow your conviction? * James 4:17

it's not my conviction to follow the letter of the law but that doesn't change the letter of the law. however, with that said I do think mass fasting of these things of "convenience" to serve our mission would effectively get a message across and turn heads that could be used to proclaim God's glory and have a positive impact. Since no one participates on this level it's not something I see as realistic nor is it a passion project of mine. I show Christ other ways to others and proclaim his rest.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

it's not my conviction to follow the letter of the law but that doesn't change the letter of the law. however, with that said I do think mass fasting of these things of "convenience" to serve our mission would effectively get a message across and turn heads that could be used to proclaim God's glory and have a positive impact. Since no one participates on this level it's not something I see as realistic nor is it a passion project of mine. I show Christ other ways to others and proclaim his rest.

No one follows the Spirit of the law by breaking the letter of the law. As God's Spirit is the Spirit of the word of God *John 6:63 and works through the Word of God as we through faith in God's Word choose to believe and follow what God says. Any teaching that says that we follow the Spirit of the law by breaking God' slaw is not biblical according to 1 John 2:3-4. We follow the Spirit of the law by following the laws intent because we love God *John 14:15; Matthew 22:36-40. Yet this is all a part of God's new covenant promise as written in Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 as we are all sinners in need of God's grace and salvation *Ephesians 2:8-9 and how we know if we really know God or not according to the scriptures *1 John 2:3-4; John 14:15; John 15:10; John 14:23; 1 John 5:3-4. There is no rest for the wicked (those who break His commandments and do not believe and follow his Word) according to scripture *Isaiah 57:20; 1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Romans 14:23; Matthew 7:21-23: Hebrews 10:26-27. Sin defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14 (see also John 8:31-36). God's 10 commandments as we all know includes Gods' 4th commandment where God commands us to keep the seventh day of the week as a memorial of creation and a day free of work for rest *Exodus 20:8-11.