Quick Question

[Christian Gedge]

They also don't want to hear it when it's pointed out that a prophetic beast refers to a kingdom (Daniel 7:23) and not an individual.

Agreed, but I have observed that there have been times when an individual has arisen who embodies the spirit of the beast empire that he heads. This is noticeable in the Roman Empire when certain emperors claimed divinity, and there have been other cases, I would suggest, over the centuries.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Agreed, but I have observed that there have been times when an individual has arisen who embodies the spirit of the beast empire that he heads. This is noticeable in the Roman Empire when certain emperors claimed divinity, and there have been other cases, I would suggest, over the centuries.

Sure, but I don't see such a thing happening in the future. I certainly don't see any scripture which teaches that there will be a future individual Antichrist.

In the case where people think 2 Thess 2 refers to such a person, I wonder what temple of God they think he would sit in since there is no physical temple of God (no temple building) anymore, nor will there ever be again.

 

[Timtofly]

I pulling on my hair, fortunately it is not coming out, although thinning a little bit !
DON'T CALL THE PERSON THE ANTICHRIST IN BLANKET FASHION. CALL HIM....as appropriate....
The little horn - applying when the person is the leader of the EU, pre Gog/Magog.

The Antichrist - applying when the person for a short time is the King of Israel, but coming in his own name

The beast - applying when the person is the dictator of the EU, and global Adoph Hitler similitude, worshiped, blaspheming God.


THAT'S ONLY THREE TERMS, WE NEED TO REFER TO THE PERSON....the little horn person....the Antichrist person....the beast person

So when we are talking about the person in Revelation for example - we use the term "the beast person". NOT ANTICHRIST.

When we are talking pre-Gog/Magog timeframe - we use the term "the little horn person" NOT ANTICHRIST.

When we are talking about when the 7 years begin, when the person has been anointed the King of Israel and up to when he commits the transgression of desolation act - THEN THAT IS WHEN we use the term "the Antichrist"


The little horn person... the Antichrist person.... the beast person.

This is going to be an uphill climb...as I am trying to change the habits of 99.999% per cent of the people out there.

__________________________________________

an analogy.... one person who advances in his career,

mayor (the little horn)

governor (the Antichrist)

president (the beast)

called the person by the right term, according to the functional role he is in.

You could just shave it all to avoid any accidents by trying to pull out your hair. This being is not even a human. It is an image Satan is allowed to give "life" to. Read Revelation 13. FP, Satan, image. No more no less. People are conflating too much of Daniel into Revelation. Personally, the first 5 verses of 13 should be in 12. Look at the CJB. The first verse is not John, but the dragon, and he is watching this beast. That part is still historical, and not really parts of current narrative. The political aspect of this beast was already fulfilled in the time of the Greek kings.

It boils down that in the last 400 years, the church has read Revelation 19 as the Second Coming, blindly not applying any proof. It is literally the only verse that says, "on a white horse, Christ is coming". Then they have to twist all other Scriptures to fit that single phenomenon. They never have been shown (or have been and just suppressed the warnings) how that is not the complete picture. So we get some who have to have the church leave, "too soon". It is too soon, because all have the Second Coming happening too late.

The FP is a charismatic religious leader, not necessarily a political one. The lawless one is still Satan who has been behind the scene with the Greeks, Romans, and harlot church for 2500 years, non stop. When pope Leo met with Attila the Hun, I doubt it had anything to do with God stopping the invasion. Of course Satan was not going to do any negotiations in person. Not trying to be negative, but Revelation 17 and 18 clearly explains how this joint relationship would and did work. Nor do I think Satan or the FP are going to step out of the shadows until after the Second Coming. Satan would not blow his own deception unless it meant killing millions of humans in the process. Satan does not know the moment of the return, but may try to be pre-emptive. He is not going to send out a political leader, but a religious charismatic leader to bring all religions together politically. Also after Christ comes destroying all of Satan's delusion, Satan is going to present an alternative answer. God is coming in Judgement, Satan will work miracles of his own, like Pharaoh, who wanted to appease his own people. There are no future prophecy references that show Satan comes first.

Even Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 shows the restrainer being taken away first. The church will be gone. The church leaving is the same event as the Second Coming.

Except, we have the wrong view from the church for the last 400 years. Sorry, but Revelation 19 is not bringing up the "rear". The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. Revelation 19 is the last day of the Second Coming, not the first day. The rapture and Second Coming have always been the same event. Christ is not exactly stealing away the church as a thief breaking in. Christ is removing His embassy, not stealing nor rescuing the ambassadors. The thief references is Christ coming to a world when they least expect it. The world is expecting Christ at the battle of Armageddon. Why would that be a surprise? Christ says there will be tribulation immediately prior. John says in the 4th Seal, tribulation happens that kills billions of humanity.

 

[Douggg]

You could just shave it all to avoid any accidents by trying to pull out your hair. This being is not even a human. It is an image Satan is allowed to give "life" to. Read Revelation 13. FP, Satan, image.

Please read my short post #7 on a new convention for me I keep refining...


At Jesus's return, the false prophet and the little horn>Antichrist>beast will be cast into the lake of fire.

Differently, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit.

 

[Timtofly]

1st John 2:18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
It's true there are many you have the AC spirit. But, there is one coming. It's clear from the passage above that the readers had been taught this and were expecting him.
It's biblical. Every ECF was expecting an individual AC and the future coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

No, the anticipation was a Messiah. The ac point is only after they had been duped. No one is looking for a person to fool them into looking stupid. The whole point is following after the wrong Messiah. The church knows He will already have the marks of the Cross. Israel will ask who gave you these marks. The counterfeit will have counterfeit marks.

Jesus never claimed royalty, he was an alternative answer to the corrupt religion of His day. Notice that He occasionally asked His followers who they and the population thought He was. That is how a false Messiah would or has come.

All, today, seem to portray a political leader, bypassing any prior steps. Satan's ac will not be so subtle, nor come before Satan or his FP. That is how John wrote it in Revelation 13. Satan is watching the FP come. Then Satan reveals himself. Then together they create this image. This image is their version of the true Christ.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus never claimed royalty, he was an alternative answer to the corrupt religion of His day.

Yes, Jesus did confirm He was a King. King of the Jews.

Luke 23:
1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

 

[Redwingfan9]

As Christians we are also to heed Christ and Paul's warnings on this very subject so we will not be deceived and we are to be watchmen.

Studying the issue is one thing. However, the American evangelical church is borderline obsessive on the subject of eschatology, making endless predictions almost none of which have come true. 88 reasons why Jesus returns in 1988 was a Christian bestseller. When 1989 rolled around a second book was released 89 reasons why Jesus returns in 1989. Shockingly it too was a bestseller.

It's nearly 2021, not only has Jesus not returned but we've had 30 more years of bogus predictions and speculation. Point being, there are more important issues and I dare say Satan is leading the church astray by focusing on the matter.

 

[Timtofly]

It's John's bias, not mine:
"even now many antichrists have appeared ... THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us they would have remained with us; but they went out" (1 Jn 2:18-19)

Are you in a different church than John is? Did his church stop in the 1st century, and the claim is we are a separate post Second Coming church?

You tell me.
What figure in the last 1900 years do you believe passes John's Biblical litmus test I posted?

Well no one, your test only applies to the 1st century. Perhaps, remove the point that it had to happen in the first century, so the rest of history can even be tested?

If you can show me any figure from the past 1900 years who fits Johns Description, I'd be agreeable to the consideration. I just haven't found one who does.
Can you provide a name of someone you suspect? We can run that name through the test together if you like and see if he or she fits the bill.

Well the reformers had a list of popes. The church never put any particular famous, charismatic, leaders on a pedestal, claiming them to be messianic. Only the office of the pope did that. I doubt many popes even lived up to the office. They are like any other president or elected leader. They were elected, except those who bypassed the election process.

There may have been local candidates, never making it on the world scene, like the founders of cults, and some religions. That is what John seemed to be referring to any ways. John knew there would never be the ac some here are trying to figure out. That is why John avoids naming any character in Revelation as thee ac.

 

[Timtofly]

I urge you to stick with scripture and abandon the unbiblical traditions of fallible men.

Including historism and preterism. Private interpretation 1900 years after the fact is also misleading.

 

[Timtofly]

They also don't want to hear it when it's pointed out that a prophetic beast refers to a kingdom (Daniel 7:23) and not an individual. And they don't want to hear that 666 is the number of mankind rather than an individual man.

They also do not want to hear, that this is Satan's created "humanity", mimicking God's creation of mankind in Genesis 1. Adam is the holder of the number of mankind. Satan's counterfeit creation is the abomination of desolation. It is not even human but an image in human likeness. Satan is not even original in his design.

 

[Timtofly]

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will also sit upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north:"
Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST High."
This is future. No one has sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God yet.

Paul is a second witness to this very verse,

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth on the temple of God, shewing himself as God.

I'm not really looking to debate this subject. (been there, done that) I'm just stating my beliefs as who I think will be sitting on the throne according to scriptures -Satan. Paul also tells us that he will be transformed (disguised in the Greek) into an angel of Light. And common sense alone tells us if he has to be disguised, than the disguise is for that reason -playing the role of God/Savior.

This applies to Satan who has tried several times, but has failed, and will continue to try, and continue to fail.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Sure, but I don't see such a thing happening in the future. I certainly don't see any scripture which teaches that there will be a future individual Antichrist.

In the case where people think 2 Thess 2 refers to such a person, I wonder what temple of God they think he would sit in since there is no physical temple of God (no temple building) anymore, nor will there ever be again.

But we do find scripture that speaks of the "image of the beast" which will be the representation of a man, IOW an individual. So, the final beast will be an empire, but it will also be personified in the form of a man who may well have an image of himself for worship.

As for the description in 2 Thess. 2:4, we cannot ignore it. I doubt that it will a rebuilt Jewish temple as imagined by dispensationalists. But I can see a 'politically correct' world temple built in the place where the old temple once stood.

I am not claiming any special prophetic revelation here. Just suggesting that in the future something might arise involving an alternative method of atonement to the blood of Christ. In it a man claiming to be God and standing where he ought not be.

 

[Clertole]

The antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ or who does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

You are correct, the verses say it all

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But we do find scripture that speaks of the "image of the beast" which will be the representation of a man, IOW an individual. So, the final beast will be an empire, but it will also be personified in the form of a man who may well have an image of himself for worship.

How are you concluding that the image of the beast will be the representation of an individual man?

As for the description in 2 Thess. 2:4, we cannot ignore it. I doubt that it will a rebuilt Jewish temple as imagined by dispensationalists. But I can see a 'politically correct' world temple built in the place where the old temple once stood.

But, is that something Paul would have called "the temple of God"? I would say definitely not. We should use scripture to interpret scripture here. What did Paul call the temple of God in other places in his writings? The church. Remember, Paul also mentions a mass falling away from the faith in that passage. It seems to me that he's talking about people falling away and no longer seeing a need for the true God and making themselves God in the process.

I am not claiming any special prophetic revelation here. Just suggesting that in the future something might arise involving an alternative method of atonement to the blood of Christ. In it a man claiming to be God and standing where he ought not be.

I just don't see that taught in scripture, but you're welcome to believe that if that's what you see.

 

[Timtofly]

Please read my short post #7 on a new convention for me I keep refining...


At Jesus's return, the false prophet and the little horn>Antichrist>beast will be cast into the lake of fire.

Differently, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit.

The image is the beast that gets cast into the Lake of Fire. The question is not, it cannot be allowed or possible?, because it is allowed. This is a soulless being in humanoid form. It is still a beast and not human. Neither a kingdom nor a soulless beast fits eternal destruction in the Lake of Fire. It seems the Lake of Fire is not consuming like the burning bush of Moses. Those in the Lake of Fire seem to have indestructible bodies. Claiming the beast represents a corporate group or thought process ignores the point, this is a new being Satan is allowed by God to introduce to the world. It is not a political human ruler, nor ideology. Satan is standing there, when the image and FP is cast into the Lake of Fire. Then Satan is bound 1000 years. Also the Mt. Olive event is the 6th Seal, not the battle of Armageddon. No humanity is alive at 6pm the evening of the morning of the first day of the Millennium. There is a resurrection in the morning 12 hours later to start the millennium with humans, in incorruptible bodies.

 

[Christian Gedge]

How are you concluding that the image of the beast will be the representation of an individual man?

Well, that's the way its always been. Nebuchadnezzar was the personification of the Babylonian beast and he erected a statue representing himself. Caligula was the personification of the Roman beast and he tried to erect a statue representing himself. Its what antichrists do.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, that's the way its always been. Nebuchadnezzar was the personification of the Babylonian beast and he erected a statue representing himself. Caligula was the personification of the Roman beast and he tried to erect a statue representing himself. Its what antichrists do.

I just can't see that as being what the image of the beast represents. If the image of the beast was a statue then how could the statue speak?

Revelation 13:15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

 

[Jipsah]

Out of curiosity, who do y'all think the Antichrist will be?

Kevin "Chalky" White, of Deptford (London), in the UK. The obvious candidate.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, Jesus did confirm He was a King. King of the Jews.

Luke 23:
1 And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate.

2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it.

Yes, moments before being the Atonement.

 

[parousia70]

So, you deny that there is a specific Antichrist figure who will come in the end of times?

1) Scripture nowhere foretells a future-to-us, specific, singular, world ruler/despot/tyrant called antichrist.
Again, such is purely a later invention of fallible men. (sure helps sell a lot of books and makes for a cool Hollywood movie idea tho..)

2) While Scripture teaches of a "time of the end", Scripture nowhere teaches of an "end of time"

Your theology seems very steeped in, and reliant upon, unbiblical terms and ideas that can't be found anywhere in scripture.