Quick Question

[JMireles]

When Christ suddenly comes to His temple, the man of sin is revealed.

Interesting point. Care to expand on it?

 

[JMireles]

The 666 of scripture was Nero. There are many antichrists, namely those who are not believers.

Having said that, we Christians would be better served studying theology, working on personal holiness and spreading the faith. Spending our time trying to predict future events is a waste and has proven to be little more than idle speculation.

So, your contention is that the events of Revelation have already occurred?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

What I'm referring to is a specific figure that appears in Scripture, one that is known to usher in the end times. A person can be antichrist, but the Antichrist is someone entirely different.

Don’t know about that. I heard it’s a very western Christian take on end times - quite American. Don’t know myself though - I haven’t studied the subject at a high enough level

 

[parousia70]

Why did you bias it to the 1st century?

It's John's bias, not mine:
"even now many antichrists have appeared ... THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us they would have remained with us; but they went out" (1 Jn 2:18-19)

No antichrist in the last 1900 years at all?

You tell me.
What figure in the last 1900 years do you believe passes John's Biblical litmus test I posted?

What if John is actually alive today? Are you insinuating the possibility, or just denying any antichrist in the last 1900 years?

If you can show me any figure from the past 1900 years who fits Johns Description, I'd be agreeable to the consideration. I just haven't found one who does.
Can you provide a name of someone you suspect? We can run that name through the test together if you like and see if he or she fits the bill.

 

[parousia70]

1st John 2:18Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, so now many antichrists have come.
It's true there are many you have the AC spirit. But, there is one coming. It's clear from the passage above that the readers had been taught this and were expecting him.
It's biblical.

Rather, they were expecting the singular IT. And John affirms to them that the singular IT they were expecting, had arrived:

1 John 4:3
and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Redwingfan9]

So, your contention is that the events of Revelation have already occurred?

Some of them.

 

[parousia70]

In Daniel 9, there is a prince described who is the one we know as "The Antichrist",

Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.

This person is also who Jesus referred to as the Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14. Add to this what Daniel said in the 11th chapter, verses 36-39,

Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.

Moving forward to Revelation, the Antichrist is the first beast, while the false Messiah is the second (Rev. 13). This is also consistent with Daniel 7, and the prophecy of the beasts found from verse one to verse eight.

Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.

The second question applies because they [muslims] deny Jesus' divinity. According to the Qur'an, Jesus is nothing more than a human prophet.

As you point out, Muslims ABSOLUTELY affirm Christ came in the flesh, which alone disqualifies them form John's specific criteria for identifying antichrist.

I urge you to stick with scripture and abandon the unbiblical traditions of fallible men.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Rather, they were expecting the singular IT. And John affirms to them that the singular IT they were expecting, had arrived:

1 John 4:3
and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It was already in the world back then and there were already many antichrists back then (as there still are today), but people don't read what the scriptures say about antichrist, so they look forward to an individual Antichrist instead of accepting what John wrote.

People don't want to read what scripture says about antichrist because that's much more boring than their sensationalistic speculations about a singular Antichrist.

They also don't want to hear it when it's pointed out that a prophetic beast refers to a kingdom (Daniel 7:23) and not an individual. And they don't want to hear that 666 is the number of mankind rather than an individual man.

 

[JMireles]

antichrist is not a man but man, as in a state of mind .... Adam in picture

The descriptions found in Revelation and Daniel seem to bely that idea. In both instances, the description points to a specific human being, not our nature as humans.

 

[JMireles]

Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.


Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.


Again, How do we know this beyond unbiblical added tradition?
Scripture teaches no such thing.


As you point out, Muslims ABSOLUTELY affirm Christ came in the flesh, which alone disqualifies them form John's specific criteria for identifying antichrist.

I urge you to stick with scripture and abandon the unbiblical traditions of fallible men.

I have stuck to Scripture. Virtually all that I have pointed to thus far IS Scripture, and they all describe a single person that we commonly refer to as The Antichrist. According to your logic, the Trinity doesn't exist because the word "Trinity" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture. The same applies to the words "omniscient", "omnipotent", and "omnipresent". Yet, one can study Scripture and see where the concept behind God's Triune nature is readily apparent, in addition to the fact that He states repeatedly that He is All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Present.

 

[JMireles]

Side Note: I noted in my argument that the image of Jesus found in the Qur'an is NOT Jesus. It is a false image of Him, one that has no basis in reality. Their contention is that the Jesus we know, as found in Scripture and historical records, never existed. That is very much denying Him in the flesh.

 

[parousia70]

I have stuck to Scripture. Virtually all that I have pointed to thus far IS Scripture, and they all describe a single person that we commonly refer to as The Antichrist.

Well, at least I appreciate your admission that Man made tradition is all you have to support applying the term antichrist to these other Biblical figures.

According to your logic, the Trinity doesn't exist because the word "Trinity" doesn't appear anywhere in Scripture. The same applies to the words "omniscient", "omnipotent", and "omnipresent". Yet, one can study Scripture and see where the concept behind God's Triune nature is readily apparent, in addition to the fact that He states repeatedly that He is All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Present.

False analogy because unlike those terms you cite, antichrist DOES APPEAR in our Bibles!
We actually have EXPLICIT BIBLICAL TEACHING on what antichrist is, and none of that explicit biblical teaching supports your contentions.

A better analogy is if I were to claim that Moses IS Peter.
Using your Logic, I could easily show this to be true:

Moses appears in our Bibles, was a servant of God, was a leader of God's People.
Peter appears in our Bibles, was a servant of God, was a leader of God's People.
Using your Logic, Moses therefore IS Peter.

 

[Timtofly]

So right now we do not know, but not a Muslim more likely European or North American. Ask me in 20 years and I might change my mind and say Chinese.

Satan will be bound in the pit and the FP and beast in the Lake of Fire by that point. Which nation is going to produce this image that will replace humanity that looks and will be a better version of the human body, and intelligence?

 

[Timtofly]

Please don't call him "his messiah", and especially not with capital "m". "The devil's false messiah" would work.

I think he will come from the New Age movement.

Satan will breathe life into this image (making it his), and my auto correct does not seem to like using a small "m" with that word. God allows it all to happen. This will not be the best of times, so being quick to judge anything Satan does, is a mute point. That God let's Satan have any control is enough said.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The descriptions found in Revelation and Daniel seem to bely that idea. In both instances, the description points to a specific human being, not our nature as humans.

Did you know that beasts in Daniel and Revelation are kingdoms?

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

 

[JMireles]

Well, at least I appreciate your admission that Man made tradition is all you have to support using the term antichrist for these other Biblical figures.



False analogy because unlike those terms you cite, antichrist DOES APPEAR in our Bibles!
We actually have EXPLICIT BIBLICAL TEACHING on what antichrist is, and none of that explicit biblical teaching supports your contentions.

A better analogy is if I were to claim that Moses IS Peter.
Using your Logic, I could easily show this to be true:

Moses appears in our Bibles, was a servant of God, was a leader of God's People.
Peter appears in our Bibles, was a servant of God, was a leader of God's People.
Using your Logic, Moses therefore IS Peter.

So, you deny that there is a specific Antichrist figure who will come in the end of times?

 

[lsume]

Interesting point. Care to expand on it?

The born again experience must happen. A great deal of the New Testament deals with this very important subject. Even Peter denied Christ before he was born again.

 

[honey badger]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my question. I'm making reference to a specific person who will be involved in the end times.

your question is flawed ...

 

[Douggg]

Not necessarily. The Muslim idea of Dajaal, their antichrist, comes as opposition to a returned Jesus (Isa). The Hadith bears this out, considering it declares that the most awful name in Allah's sight on Judgment Day will be a man calling himself Malik al-Amlak, or King of Kings.

Using the bible - identify the Dajaal person in the text of him opposing Jesus (Isa). Also identify the muslim Isa in Revelation.

The Dajaal just doesn't correspond to anyone in Revelation.

JMireles,

Here is the infallible endtimes timeline framework for the 7 years. First chart.

Next chart is the critical path of events during the 7 years - using that framework.

 

[JulieB67]

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will also sit upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north:"
Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST High."
This is future. No one has sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God yet.

Paul is a second witness to this very verse,

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth on the temple of God, shewing himself as God.

I'm not really looking to debate this subject. (been there, done that) I'm just stating my beliefs as who I think will be sitting on the throne according to scriptures -Satan. Paul also tells us that he will be transformed (disguised in the Greek) into an angel of Light. And common sense alone tells us if he has to be disguised, than the disguise is for that reason -playing the role of God/Savior.

Having said that, we Christians would be better served studying theology, working on personal holiness and spreading the faith. Spending our time trying to predict future events is a waste and has proven to be little more than idle speculation.

As Christians we are also to heed Christ and Paul's warnings on this very subject so we will not be deceived and we are to be watchmen.