20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[sovereigngrace]

You have been bodily resurrected? Christ is on the earth, and sinful flesh stopped at the Cross? How did Paul miss the 7th Trumpet?

You are forcing your false teaching upon Amil. It will not fit. Square pegs do not go into round holes.

 

[Timtofly]

You are forcing your false teaching upon Amil. It will not fit. Square pegs do not go into round holes.

So now the verses in Revelation are considered false teaching from John, because they disagree with your eschatology. I am not forcing anything. You change the words in Revelation 20 to fit your round hole in the ground you have dug up for yourself.

"They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years."

This is a bodily resurrection. They did not wake up from sleep. They came to life after having their heads chopped off.

9 "and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves."

How can you change God's Word and say these are not the same people who were resurrected and have reigned with Christ for 1000 years?

No chapter changes, no subject changes, just amil denial, denial, denial.

This did not happen whenever, you decide or any false interpretation any amil gets to decide. God says 1000 years. God says it happens after the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. You refuse to see there is no subject break between Revelation 19 and 20. Just like no subject break between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. Sorry but picking and choosing how to read God's Word, is a bias to prove one's private interpretation.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So now the verses in Revelation are considered false teaching from John, because they disagree with your eschatology. I am not forcing anything. You change the words in Revelation 20 to fit your round hole in the ground you have dug up for yourself.

"They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years."

This is a bodily resurrection. They did not wake up from sleep. They came to life after having their heads chopped off.

9 "and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves."

How can you change God's Word and say these are not the same people who were resurrected and have reigned with Christ for 1000 years?

No chapter changes, no subject changes, just amil denial, denial, denial.

This did not happen whenever, you decide or any false interpretation any amil gets to decide. God says 1000 years. God says it happens after the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19. You refuse to see there is no subject break between Revelation 19 and 20. Just like no subject break between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. Sorry but picking and choosing how to read God's Word, is a bias to prove one's private interpretation.

No. Your interpretation of Revelation is erroneous. That is what I reject. It enjoys no corroboration in God's Book.

 

[Timtofly]

No. Your interpretation of Revelation is erroneous. That is what I reject. It enjoys no corroboration in God's Book.

You are questioning any one's ability to read. There is no interpretation, just plain reading comprehension. There is nothing to interpret. If you are relying on some man made interpretation to explain the plain reading, then the reading is wrong if you stick to an interpretation that is not just a plain reading of the text. If your interpretation is correct, then the plain reading of the text is wrong. Your man made private interpretation comes from God, and John was not inspired, but just wrote words, so your private interpretation would be the correct one when it eventually came along?

 

[sovereigngrace]

You are questioning any one's ability to read. There is no interpretation, just plain reading comprehension. There is nothing to interpret. If you are relying on some man made interpretation to explain the plain reading, then the reading is wrong if you stick to an interpretation that is not just a plain reading of the text. If your interpretation is correct, then the plain reading of the text is wrong. Your man made private interpretation comes from God, and John was not inspired, but just wrote words, so your private interpretation would be the correct one when it eventually came along?

Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Paul and the NT writers were all strong Amil.

 

[Timtofly]

Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Paul and the NT writers were all strong Amil.

They all denied God's Word? Jesus is God's Word. Probably should have left that name out of your private interpretation. According to you and this thread amil deny the Lord's Day, Christ reigning on earth for 1000 years. How was that related to Moses? John wrote Revelation 20 and witnessed Christ reigning on earth for 1000 years. How can that be an amil view?

Show me one verse in the NT of authors condemning John for writing Revelation 20 and calling it a heresy and that amil should be theology. You have to interpret the NT authors in light of your bias that claims Christ cannot reign on earth for 1000 years. John claims Christ does reign on earth for 1000 years. Christ has not reigned on the earth, notice on the earth, yet. It is still future. You do not know any length other than the 1000 years John does mention. You are just making it up as some other length of time. Then making a prophecy, that contradicts God's Word. Yes Christ is currently reigning in Heaven next to God on the throne. That is not in question. It is the future 1000 year reign, on earth, you are denying will happen. You have to change Scripture to get this private denial to work.

 

[sovereigngrace]

They all denied God's Word? Jesus is God's Word. Probably should have left that name out of your private interpretation. According to you and this thread amil deny the Lord's Day, Christ reigning on earth for 1000 years. How was that related to Moses? John wrote Revelation 20 and witnessed Christ reigning on earth for 1000 years. How can that be an amil view?

Show me one verse in the NT of authors condemning John for writing Revelation 20 and calling it a heresy and that amil should be theology. You have to interpret the NT authors in light of your bias that claims Christ cannot reign on earth for 1000 years. John claims Christ does reign on earth for 1000 years. Christ has not reigned on the earth, notice on the earth, yet. It is still future. You do not know any length other than the 1000 years John does mention. You are just making it up as some other length of time. Then making a prophecy, that contradicts God's Word. Yes Christ is currently reigning in Heaven next to God on the throne. That is not in question. It is the future 1000 year reign, on earth, you are denying will happen. You have to change Scripture to get this private denial to work.

John agreed with the rest. Rev 20 supports Amil.

 

[keras]

John agreed with the rest. Rev 20 supports Amil.

Huh?
Revelation 20 clearly states there is yet to come a 1000 year reign of Jesus.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Huh?
Revelation 20 clearly states there is yet to come a 1000 year reign of Jesus.

Not so. Rev 20 is in the present tense. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). The millennium started here! You have no rebuttal to that.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so. Rev 20 is in the present tense. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). The millennium started here! You have no rebuttal to that.

Do you know the type of the first resurrection?

Do you know the type of the second death?

Do you have an incorruptible body or are you glorified in Christ?

You deny those in Christ even are part of the first resurrection bodily. Christ was raised bodily, and you refute any bodily resurrection currently happening, not even in Paradise. You refute your own first resurrection 1990 years ago being bodily for those in Christ.

John says they were given life and ruled on earth, because they are the subject of attack by Satan at the end. It is physical and bodily, and you refute the first resurrection yourself. No need of pre-mill help at all.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Do you know the type of the first resurrection?

Do you know the type of the second death?

Do you have an incorruptible body or are you glorified in Christ?

You deny those in Christ even are part of the first resurrection bodily. Christ was raised bodily, and you refute any bodily resurrection currently happening, not even in Paradise. You refute your own first resurrection 1990 years ago being bodily for those in Christ.

John says they were given life and ruled on earth, because they are the subject of attack by Satan at the end. It is physical and bodily, and you refute the first resurrection yourself. No need of pre-mill help at all.

The first resurrection was Christ's resurrection. Read the Scriptures instead of always talking.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Jesus said in Luke 21:26-28, 36: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Luke 21 shows us what occurs at the climactic future coming of Christ. Not only will creation be glorified, the righteous will also experience the same. This is the moment when man and creation is simultaneously perfected. This is shown to be the realization of the final aspect of redemption. Various clear and repeated Scripture prove when the day of redemption is.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.” The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon, which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest. You have heard of earnest money. ‘It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder’. This seal is active until the time when Jesus comes and we shall be physically redeemed.

 

[Timtofly]

The first resurrection was Christ's resurrection. Read the Scriptures instead of always talking.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Jesus said in Luke 21:26-28, 36: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Luke 21 shows us what occurs at the climactic future coming of Christ. Not only will creation be glorified, the righteous will also experience the same. This is the moment when man and creation is simultaneously perfected. This is shown to be the realization of the final aspect of redemption. Various clear and repeated Scripture prove when the day of redemption is.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that “ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, “ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.” The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon, which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest. You have heard of earnest money. ‘It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder’. This seal is active until the time when Jesus comes and we shall be physically redeemed.

Christ had a bodily resurrection. That is the first resurrection. Show me a human bodily resurrection of humanity just like Jesus Christ. Address the point, instead of making up another point and avoiding the point of the bodily resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Christ had a bodily resurrection. That is the first resurrection.

Exactly. That is what we Amils point out all the time. Revelation 20:6 talks about those who have part in the first resurrection, which you said yourself right here is Christ's bodily resurrection. So, how do you think someone has part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection)?

Show me a human bodily resurrection of humanity just like Jesus Christ. Address the point, instead of making up another point and avoiding the point of the bodily resurrection.

After all he said, this is all you can say in response? He did address the point, but you're not getting it. His point is that the redemption of our bodies doesn't occur until the second coming of Christ.

Just like what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this establishes that Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurring when Christ comes again. He goes on to explain what happens at that time and then after that talks about different types of bodies and that the future body we will have is a spiritual body. And then he said this:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

So, this passage is speaking of what will happen when Christ comes again at the last trumpet. It speaks of the dead in Christ being raised, just like it says in 1 Cor 15:22-23 which says that will happen when He comes again. And then they, along with those who are alive at the time, will all be changed and will then have imperishable (incorruptible) and immortal bodies, which will be spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:44).

That redemption of our bodies is still something all of the dead in Christ are waiting for in heaven (their souls and spirits are in heaven while their bodies are still dead in the graves) and we who are alive now are waiting for that as well.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. That is what we Amils point out all the time. Revelation 20:6 talks about those who have part in the first resurrection, which you said yourself right here is Christ's bodily resurrection. So, how do you think someone has part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection)?

After all he said, this is all you can say in response? He did address the point, but you're not getting it. His point is that the redemption of our bodies doesn't occur until the second coming of Christ.

Just like what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this establishes that Paul is talking about the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurring when Christ comes again. He goes on to explain what happens at that time and then after that talks about different types of bodies and that the future body we will have is a spiritual body. And then he said this:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

So, this passage is speaking of what will happen when Christ comes again at the last trumpet. It speaks of the dead in Christ being raised, just like it says in 1 Cor 15:22-23 which says that will happen when He comes again. And then they, along with those who are alive at the time, will all be changed and will then have imperishable (incorruptible) and immortal bodies, which will be spiritual bodies (1 Cor 15:44).

That redemption of our bodies is still something all of the dead in Christ are waiting for in heaven (their souls and spirits are in heaven while their bodies are still dead in the graves) and we who are alive now are waiting for that as well.

Then my reply would be Revelation 20:4 is a first resurrection that of the body, which you mentioned. It happens at the beginning of a 1000 year period. That is still future according to you. Otherwise you reject 30AD as being a bodily resurrection for Christ or any human.

And my second point is they have a body in Paradise now. They enjoy the first resurrection now. Just like those in the final harvest of the Second Coming will enjoy a bodily resurrection during the last millennium.

You claim a future bodily resurrection, ok. I claim both a bodily resurrection in 30AD that is ongoing. And still a future one after sin and death by sin is done away with, destroyed.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Then my reply would be Revelation 20:4 is a first resurrection that of the body, which you mentioned. It happens at the beginning of a 1000 year period. That is still future according to you. Otherwise you reject 30AD as being a bodily resurrection for Christ or any human.

And my second point is they have a body in Paradise now. They enjoy the first resurrection now. Just like those in the final harvest of the Second Coming will enjoy a bodily resurrection during the last millennium.

You claim a future bodily resurrection, ok. I claim both a bodily resurrection in 30AD that is ongoing. And still a future one after sin and death by sin is done away with, destroyed.

... but you admitted that the first resurrection has already occurred. We must therefore be in the millennium/Satan's little season.

 

[keras]

Not so. Rev 20 is in the present tense. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). The millennium started here! You have no rebuttal to that.

A lot of Bible prophecy is Written in the present tense. That is because of the surety of it's fulfillment.
So that is no reason to say it has happened, or is happening now. In fact, that idea; the AMIL theory, is so far out and beyond reality, that belief in Amillinarisim is in the realms of comic book fantasy.

Revelation 20 is plainly a prophecy about what will happen soon after Jesus Returns. Any other interpretation is false and not Biblical.

 

[sovereigngrace]

A lot of Bible prophecy is Written in the present tense. That is because of the surety of it's fulfillment.
So that is no reason to say it has happened, or is happening now. In fact, that idea; the AMIL theory, is so far out and beyond reality, that belief in Amillinarisim is in the realms of comic book fantasy.

Revelation 20 is plainly a prophecy about what will happen soon after Jesus Returns. Any other interpretation is false and not Biblical.

Scripture uses past, present and future tenses for a reason. Premils reject this because it often exposes their position.

 

[keras]

Scripture uses past, present and future tenses for a reason. Premils reject this because it often exposes their position.

Firstly; I am not a pre-mill believer.
If a prophecy plainly describes an event than is possible to happen, but is not historically recorded, then it must still be a future event.

Your belief that Revelation 20 has happened, or is now happening, is wrong because Jesus has not Returned, He has not yet chained up Satan, He has no raised the GT martyrs and He has not taken up His rightful rule over all the world. Psalms 2:7-9

 

[sovereigngrace]

Firstly; I am not a pre-mill believer.
If a prophecy plainly describes an event than is possible to happen, but is not historically recorded, then it must still be a future event.

Your belief that Revelation 20 has happened, or is now happening, is wrong because Jesus has not Returned, He has not yet chained up Satan, He has no raised the GT martyrs and He has not taken up His rightful rule over all the world. Psalms 2:7-9

Your pattern is to dismiss any presence tense Scripture that interferes with what you have been taught. There is no consistency in your hermeneutics.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Firstly; I am not a pre-mill believer.
If a prophecy plainly describes an event than is possible to happen, but is not historically recorded, then it must still be a future event.

Your belief that Revelation 20 has happened, or is now happening, is wrong because Jesus has not Returned, He has not yet chained up Satan, He has no raised the GT martyrs and He has not taken up His rightful rule over all the world. Psalms 2:7-9

Your fight is with Scripture again. The whole of Christ's ministry involved the binding of the demonic realm. The Greek word deo (bound) refers to restrain and curtailment in Scripture.

Satan had to be dominated, overcome and then restricted in order that the darkened nations could be enlightened and consequently liberated.

He had to be put on a spiritual chain (bound). Satan is a prisoner on a chain. Demons are prisoners in chains. Christ not only has authority over them, but he has also given us His people authority over them.

Jesus said just prior to His death in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you … how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or deo) the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.”

Before we go any further let us establish 1st that this is referring to His earthly ministry.

Secondly, when it talks about Satan and his kingdom being bound, being in chains or being imprisoned it is not talking about physical metal chains a physical brick prison because Satan is not a physical being. He is a spiritual being. It is talking about a spiritual condition of restraint that curtails him in regard to his influence and power.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.