Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

[Spiritual Jew]

Your post implies that Premils believe in future animal sacrifices.

There are some who do, there are some who don't.

I don't, and I've never met a Premil who does.

Friend, I think you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm not trying to be rude, but please read what I said again.

"I highly encourage any premils who believe in future animal sacrifices to seriously consider what was said here.".

How do you get from this that I was saying all premils believe in future animal sacrifices? Is it not clear that I was only referring to "any premils who believe in future animal sacrifices" and not saying that they all do? There definitely are some who do because I've debated with them about it. What I said only applied to "any premils who believe in future animal sacrifices" whoever they might be. That doesn't include you, so I obviously wasn't talking to you there.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When I say ALL the dead I'm excluding those who are no longer dead - those whom scripture excludes from the second death (which only takes place at the GWT at the close of the millennium).

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The GWT that takes place at the close of the millennium, when ALL the dead are resurrected, excludes those who are not dead.

I can't help it if your system has the saints and the dead judged at the same time.

You mean just like Matthew 25:31-46 does? There is no basis for thinking that all the saints and all unbelievers from all-time won't all be judged at the same time as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Other passages like this one indicate the same thing:

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Who exactly, among all of "the people of the evil one" are not included here? And who exactly, among "the people of the kingdom" are not included here?

Premil has no choice but to either add a thousand year time period to these passages that doesn't fit or they need to try to say that not all of the righteous or all of the wicked are being portrayed in them. This is despite the fact that there is no indication that any unbelievers will have a different fate than what is described in those passages or that any believers will get a different reward than what is described in them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
The last enemy made to cease is death." 1 Cor 15:22-26

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:6

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev 20:4-5

Notice that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality is Christ's first (the first resurrection) and next is those who are His at His coming. And there is no other mention of anyone else being resurrected in that context besides that.

So, what about any Christians who would die during a future millennium? Would they not be resurrected? Paul didn't seem to know of such people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The verse (2Corinthians2:10-12) says appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So? Don't you know that the Father has appointed all judgment to His Son? Therefore, Jesus is the Judge who will sit on the great white throne. The judgment seat of Christ and great white throne are just 2 different ways of referring to Christ's throne of judgment.

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

 

[Douggg]

So? Don't you know that the Father has appointed all judgment to His Son? Therefore, Jesus is the Judge who will sit on the great white throne. The judgment seat of Christ and great white throne are just 2 different ways of referring to Christ's throne of judgment.

John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Yes, I agree that Jesus will also sit on the Great White Throne judgment, a thousand years later.

The 7th angel sounds in the middle part of the 7 year 70th week though, and that will when judgment of them who died in Christ to that point will be judged.

 

[claninja]

It still does not prove Amil, though, because Amil is a separate issue.

absolutely agree.

1. The second death only takes place at the GWT.

Agreed.

2. The New Testament has those who belong to Christ being immune to the second death, which only takes place at the time of the GWT.

IMHO it is not the 2nd coming that we have to wait for in order to be immune to the 2nd death. Immunity to the 2nd death is obtained, according to Jesus, by believing in Him. I would argue this has been happening to all believers since the 1st advent.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

3. The New Testament has those who died in Christ living and reigning with Christ for a period before the second death which only takes place at the GWT, and Rev 20 calls this period a thousand years.

IMHO, revelation 20, is a parable given in the form of a vision to John.

1.) According to the gospel and epistlolic narrative, Jesus is the 1st resurrection. There is no mention of another 1st physical bodily resurrection apart from Jesus in the gospel/epistles:

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent

revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.


John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.


2.) And those that partake in this first resurrection, are born again to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests to God. Such is the narrative of the gospels and epistles, that all who believe in Jesus partake in His resurrection to be born again and a kingdom of priests.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

And here are the results of us being buried with Him in baptism and raised with his resurrection according to the gospel and epistolic narrative:



revelation 20:5-6 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! 1.) The second death has no power over them, 2.) but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

A.) The 2nd death already has no power over the believer. Per Jesus, those who believe in Him will never die.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

According to Jesus, the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the 2nd death. So what does it mean to "overcome" ?
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

According to John, "overcoming" has to with faith in Christ, which corresponds to Jesus' teaching that those who believe in Him will never die.

1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

B.) According to Peter, the body of Christ is already a ROYAL priest hood to God.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

Otherwise, the 1,000 years that separates 2 future resurrection becomes new information not previously taught by Jesus in the gospels or the apostles in their epistles.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, I agree that Jesus will also sit on the Great White Throne judgment, a thousand years later.

The 7th angel sounds in the middle part of the 7 year 70th week though, and that will when judgment of them who died in Christ to that point will be judged.

So, I guess you believe in at least 3 judgment days? One before Christ comes, one when He comes (Matt 25:31-46) and one over a thousand years later. Why would there be 3 judgment days? That seems very convoluted and inefficient.

Which of your 3 judgment days is this referring to:

Acts 17:30 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Which of your 3 judgment days is this referring to:

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Which of your 3 judgment days is this referring to:

1 John 4:6 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

The thing that sealed it for me was the thought of Christ conducting funeral services for dead mortals many years after His Second Coming.

Where is this taught in the Bible?

 

[Timtofly]

Despite Christ's direct influence on the earth for all that time, a number as the sand of the seashore will rebel against Him? Why would they do that? They would not be naive like Adam and Eve were. They would have 1000+ years of experiencing Jesus firsthand and learning from Him directly. You don't think after 1000 years they would have developed a love for Christ and His ways that they would never want to depart from?

You really have little sense of time. That is like blaming American Indians living in the 14th century, for causing World War 2. No one said those born in the first 500 years are going to rebel. Why would even the first 25 generations rebel? If half the population in the world today, about 3 billion start eating each other, and die, it would not be because those living 500 years ago were perfect without sin. You make it sound like rebellion starts the 2nd year. No it starts the 998th year at the edges of the earth where 3 billion out of 30 billion rebel. Why do amil keep putting sin and decay into the Millennium? It is a strawman to make their viewpoint look better.

Btw, Adam did spend 1000 years with God before the Garden of Eden was created. The first Lord's Day was also 1000 years. Satan sat and watched the sons of God for 1000 years and decided he could do God’s job better than God could.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

This is what is going to happen at the Second Coming rapture event of the 6th seal. The church is made complete. Then the final harvest will start. The people of the kingdom are not the same people as the righteous. There are 3 types of people mentioned in this rather symbolic parable.

 

[Timtofly]

Notice that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality is Christ's first (the first resurrection) and next is those who are His at His coming. And there is no other mention of anyone else being resurrected in that context besides that.

So, what about any Christians who would die during a future millennium? Would they not be resurrected? Paul didn't seem to know of such people.

If by Christians, you mean the church, then no. The church is not going to be in the Millennium. If you mean those who follow Christ as the leader with the rod of iron, that would be all, except the few billion who rebel in the last year or two.

The resurrection in Revelation 20 can only be those people harvested in the final harvest, and those beheaded in Satan's 42 months leading up to the resurrection in Revelation 20. This is not the resurrection of the OT believers at the Cross. This is a resurrection the day after the battle of Armageddon, at the end of Satan's 42 months. Prior to those 42 months was the final harvest. The final harvest started after the Second Coming and rapture in the 6th seal. All in that resurrection will die before Satan's 42 months, except those beheaded. That is what the final harvest is. The people of the kingdom are harvested by Jesus and the rest will be burned by fire throughout the rest of the time they have on earth, including Satan's 42 months. The battle of Armageddon being that very last harvest of the wicked. No more humans alive on earth at that point. All dead!

Then the resurrection of those reigning with Christ for the next 1000 year and on into the NHNE. They populate the earth. The church lives in the New Jerusalem. No population growth mentioned for those with glorified bodies, shining like stars, because their spirit is a literal robe of light. They are in God's image which is light. No need for the sun or moon.

 

[BABerean2]

Where is this taught in the Bible?

There is nothing in the Bible about mortals and immortals living together for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.
It comes from those promoting the Premill doctrine.


.

 

[iamlamad]

Where is this taught in the Bible?

I agree with you here. Who said anyone will die during the 1000 year reign?

 

[BABerean2]

If you mean those who follow Christ as the leader with the rod of iron, that would be all, except the few billion who rebel in the last year or two.

Based on Psalm 2, the "son" destroys the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron.
He does not correct it.


.

 

[iamlamad]

There is nothing in the Bible about mortals and immortals living together for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.
It comes from those promoting the Premill doctrine.


.

Not in so many words. God wants us to study and show ourselves approved in the scriptures. But it is there. Study the first 4 verses of Rev. 20.

 

[BABerean2]

I agree with you here. Who said anyone will die during the 1000 year reign?

How can mortals live on the earth for 1,000 years without any of them being killed in accidents?
If they cannot be killed in accidents, that would make them immortals.


.

 

[iamlamad]

This is what is going to happen at the Second Coming rapture event of the 6th seal. The church is made complete. Then the final harvest will start. The people of the kingdom are not the same people as the righteous. There are 3 types of people mentioned in this rather symbolic parable.

I see two: people of the kingdom, and weeds.

 

[iamlamad]

How can mortals live on the earth for 1,000 years without any of them being killed in accidents?
If they cannot be killed in accidents, that would make them immortals.
.

According to Isaiah, the curse on earth is lifted: earth will be like heaven in that respect. Remember a lamb will lay down with a lion? Jesus last enemy is death. When is death finally destroyed?

For the church, pretrib. For the OT saints, at the end of the trib.

 

[iamlamad]

You really have little sense of time. That is like blaming American Indians living in the 14th century, for causing World War 2. No one said those born in the first 500 years are going to rebel. Why would even the first 25 generations rebel? If half the population in the world today, about 3 billion start eating each other, and die, it would not be because those living 500 years ago were perfect without sin. You make it sound like rebellion starts the 2nd year. No it starts the 998th year at the edges of the earth where 3 billion out of 30 billion rebel. Why do amil keep putting sin and decay into the Millennium? It is a strawman to make their viewpoint look better.

Btw, Adam did spend 1000 years with God before the Garden of Eden was created. The first Lord's Day was also 1000 years. Satan sat and watched the sons of God for 1000 years and decided he could do God’s job better than God could.

I agree with your first paragraph; but what scripture did you have in mind for your second paragraph?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You really have little sense of time. That is like blaming American Indians living in the 14th century, for causing World War 2. No one said those born in the first 500 years are going to rebel. Why would even the first 25 generations rebel? If half the population in the world today, about 3 billion start eating each other, and die, it would not be because those living 500 years ago were perfect without sin. You make it sound like rebellion starts the 2nd year. No it starts the 998th year at the edges of the earth where 3 billion out of 30 billion rebel. Why do amil keep putting sin and decay into the Millennium? It is a strawman to make their viewpoint look better.

Btw, Adam did spend 1000 years with God before the Garden of Eden was created. The first Lord's Day was also 1000 years. Satan sat and watched the sons of God for 1000 years and decided he could do God’s job better than God could.

You have a very serious reading comprehension problem. I never indicated that the rebellion starts before the 1000 years are over. Not even close. So, I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

Also, your claim that the first day of creation was 1000 years in duration is complete nonsense and it's not even worth my time to respond to that any further.