Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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Zao is life

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Can you explain how people would worship Him for 1000 years and then suddenly a number of them as the sand of the seashore would turn against Him? Do you believe that makes any sense? Please be honest.

What would cause so many to suddenly turn against Him after worshiping Him and witnessing Him in all His glory for 1000 years? Is Satan really that powerful that he can make people suddenly forget all about the thousand years of peaceful bliss with "the King, the LORD of hosts" that they had just experienced?

If you think so, then you are severely overestimating Satan's power. He's very powerful, but not THAT powerful. Only God Himself could be that powerful and I'm sure God would not want to cause His worshipers (again, a number as the sand of the seashore) to change their minds and suddenly oppose Him for no apparent reason.
Of course it makes sense. Satan was so powerful that he got Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God and had direct communication with God in the garden, to believe that God was lying or hiding something from them:

"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate." Gen 3:4-6

If those who had direct communication with God in the garden could be beguiled by Satan this way, then so can all sons of Adam:

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea." Rev 20:7-8

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time." Rev 20:2-3

The huge mistake of all Amils is to fail to see that the binding and loosing of Satan is directly linked in the Bible to his ability to deceive the nations, the sons of Adam.

The second huge mistake of all Amils is to assume that Satan is currently bound, and therefore not able to deceive the sons of Adam during the age in-between Calvary and the appearance of Christ in His glory.

I do not overestimate the power God has allowed Satan. If anything, you both underestimate the power God has allowed Satan, and overestimate the sons of Adam.
 
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Zao is life

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Would you say that the "mortals who are now believers" that you mentioned will have inherited the kingdom of God at that point?
They will have the same hope that we repentant sinners have today. They will also have the same warnings that we repentant sinners have today about falling away from faith, which those who believe in OSAS ignore.

In the scriptures (minus any human interpretation of the scriptures), death and hades deliver the dead that are still in them at the close of the thousand years, after Satan has been released, after the final Gog-Magog judgment, after Satan has been cast into the LOF, and at the final GWT.

So this implies that not only will there be souls still in hades who were not resurrected from the dead at the time of the first resurrection when Christ appeared, but there will be mortals dying during the thousand years, during which Satan is bound and unable to deceive.

The scriptures do not tell us that Christ will remain on earth during the millennium. The scriptures tell us only that those who were beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or its image or receive its mark or the number of its name, will live and reign with Christ - but that does not mean Christ has to be on the earth with them - and Satan will be bound.

I'm not making any guesses about what scripture does not say - but if I speculate, I would speculate that Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives after His appearance and destroy the armies gathered against Jerusalem, but He won't remain on the earth 1,000 years - He can be seated on His throne in heaven, reigning through His resurrected saints; and the Revelation also does not tell us that all resurrected saints will remain on earth during the millennium. Neither does scripture tell us anything about "how many" mortals will be left alive after the defeat and destruction of the beast - but Daniel, when speaking about the destruction of that same beast, tells us:

"And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:12

Daniel sees this in the vision which was later explained to him:

"Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:11-12

I'm 100% convinced Daniel's final beast is the same beast as the beast of the Revelation. "The rest of the beasts" can only be referring to the kingdoms of the nations. Their dominion will be taken away from them, but their lives made longer for a season and a time. The kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ, and He will reign (over the nations) forever and ever, starting with the millennium. Satan is bound for that thousand years, unable to deceive the nations. At the close of the thousand years he is released and goes out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the world again - Gog and Magog.
 
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Zao is life

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This is fascinating that you agree that the judgment of all the dead (both the righteous and wicked) will occur at the same time (right after the thousand years and Satan's little season are completed) as described in Rev 20:11-15. I have never seen a premil say this before.

Anyway, with that in mind, how can you not see Matthew 25:31-46, which occurs when Christ comes in all His glory with His angels, as referring to the same event? I believe the similarities between Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-21:4 are obvious. I'll quote both of them to show the similarities (I'll leave out a few verses from the first passage to save space).

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I can't see any way, apart from doctrinal bias, that these passages could possibly be speaking of 2 separate judgment events. And the Matthew 25 passage place it at the time when Christ comes with His angels rather than 1000+ years after that. Note the similarities which I color coded in each passage.

  • Both speak of someone sitting on a throne to judge (Matt 25 specifies that it is Jesus).
  • Both give the impression that all people, saved and lost, will be there to be judged/rewarded according to what they had done during their lives.
  • Both refer to an eternal reward for believers and eternal punishment for unbelievers.
  • Both indicate that the place unbelievers are sent to is the same place as the devil.
Are believers going to inherit eternal life in God's kingdom more than once? Are unbelievers going to be cast into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels more than once? Are all people going to be judged more than once for what they've done? The answer to these questions should obviously be no.

Since the judgment takes place when Jesus comes with His angels and takes place after the thousand years then we can only conclude that He will come after the figurative thousand years and then proceed to judge all people by what they've done at that time.

The doctrinal bias is produced by failure to recognise that all these scriptures imply more than one judgment - the Lord's destruction of the beast on one hand, and the GWT on the other - and if you read carefully, you will see why:-

---------------------------------------------------​

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

--------------------------------------------------------

(i) Take note that the second death only takes place after the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire:

(ii) Take note that those who are Christ's at His coming, will not be part of the second death:

--------------------------------------------​

Mat 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Here's the eternal punishment - the second death:

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13-14 )

The lake of fire is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Here's the fate of the righteous who belong to Christ:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:4-6

Note:

1. Second death is mentioned twice in the Revelation - and it only takes place after death and hades have delivered the souls in them.

2. The righteous souls of those who had died in Christ are not delivered from death at that point.

Why?

It's because the second death has no power over them - they were already resurrected at the appearance of Christ:


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy made to cease is death.

27 For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him.

28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected things to Him, so that God may be all things in all. (1 Cor 15:22-28)

What we agree on:​

Judgment - the final judgment - will take place at the close of the millennium.​

Those who died in Christ, will not be delivered up by death and hades at the time of the second death, and therefore will not be among those being judged at the GWT - because their souls will already have been resurrected at the appearance of Christ. The second death has no power of them.

So there is a time-lapse between the appearance of Christ and the second death.
How long is this time lapse?

The Revelation of Jesus tells us it's a one-thousand year period.

"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6)
 
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Zao is life

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Excellent points. I highly encourage any premils who believe in future animal sacrifices to seriously consider what was said here.

To interpret OT passages to be prophesying about future (from now) animal sacrifices contradicts a great deal of scripture including the passages above as well as Hebrews 8-10 and other passages. You need to re-evaluate your understanding of those OT passages so that you don't contradict NT passages like these.
Your post implies that Premils believe in future animal sacrifices.

There are some who do, there are some who don't.

I don't, and I've never met a Premil who does.
 
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BABerean2

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You claim the Revelation 11:18 judgment occurs in heaven, even though it includes reward for some and destruction for others.


It occurs shortly after the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". (Revelation 11:15)
How long is "forever".


Therefore, it cannot occur in heaven.


As long as you keep attempting to add elements of Dispensational Theology into your charts they will never be correct.


The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on genealogies, which Paul warned against in Titus 3:9.
There is only one people of God in John 10:16.


.
 
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Zao is life

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And Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
That judgment is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the end of Revelation 20.

That appearing is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the 7th trumpet which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead.

Therefore, the "millennium" ends near the Second Coming of Christ.

.
When I say ALL the dead I'm excluding those who are no longer dead - those whom scripture excludes from the second death (which only takes place at the GWT at the close of the millennium).

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The GWT that takes place at the close of the millennium, when ALL the dead are resurrected, excludes those who are not dead.

I can't help it if your system has the saints and the dead judged at the same time.
 
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Zao is life

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There is no mention of Christ's feet touching the mount of olives at his return in the NT.

Right, but this is not a new festival. Feast of tabernacles was a once a year feast during the Old covenant era, which required Israelite men to come up to Jerusalem.

Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the LORD your God in the place He will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread,d the Feast of Weeks,e and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Just as under the Old covenant Law, participation in Feast of Tabernacles is a requirement according to Zechariah's vision, otherwise the nations will face plagues.

Zechariah 14:18 And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

This raises 2 issues now that the old covenant is obsolete and we are now in the new covenant:

1.) This requirement to partake in feast of tabernacles or be punished by a plague from God directly contradicts the teachings of Paul, that not partaking in the feasts is acceptable.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ

2.) This requirement to go up to earthly Jerusalem once a year or be punished by a plague directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus that a time was coming when going to Jerusalem to worship would no longer be required.

John 4:21 “Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

I concede to everything you said in the part which I quote above.

It still does not prove Amil, though, because Amil is a separate issue.

1. The second death only takes place at the GWT.

2. The New Testament has those who belong to Christ being immune to the second death, which only takes place at the time of the GWT.

3. The New Testament has those who died in Christ living and reigning with Christ for a period before the second death which only takes place at the GWT, and Rev 20 calls this period a thousand years.

This is the house that God built. Not the house that Jack built.
 
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BABerean2

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I agree. 2 Peter 3:3-14 taken in its context = no literal millennium to follow.

Revelation 20, taken in its context = a literal millennium to follow. If we take one passage up literally and interpret it only in the light of the passage, then we must do the same with the other passage - and then we come back to the necessity of looking at all scripture, comparing scripture with scripture.

There is scriptural and grammatical support for a literal thousand years. There is scriptural support for no literal thousand years to follow. This is why there will always be Christians falling into one camp or the other when it comes to this topic.


If we compare the clear scriptures which forbid the Premill doctrine to the scriptures which Premill advocates claim prove their doctrine, what would the majority of the evidence confirm?


This is the reason many of us who used to believe the Premill doctrine had to let go of it.


Many of us know what you are going to say, because we used to believe it ourselves.


Once I came to realize the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, the Premill doctrine started to unwind.
After reading what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46, and what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Premill doctrine turned into a vapor.


The thing that sealed it for me was the thought of Christ conducting funeral services for dead mortals many years after His Second Coming.


.
 
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Zao is life

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If we compare the clear scriptures which forbid the Premill doctrine to the scriptures which Premill advocates claim prove their doctrine, what would the majority of the evidence confirm?


This is the reason many of us who used to believe the Premill doctrine had to let go of it.


Many of us know what you are going to say, because we used to believe it ourselves.


Once I came to realize the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, the Premill doctrine started to unwind.
After reading what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46, and what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Premill doctrine turned into a vapor.


The thing that sealed it for me was the thought of Christ conducting funeral services for dead mortals many years after His Second Coming.


.



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1. The second death only takes place at the GWT.

2. The New Testament has those who belong to Christ being resurrected at His appearance and being immune to the second death, and the second death only taking place at the time of the GWT.

3. The New Testament has those who died in Christ living and reigning with Christ for a period before the second death which only takes place at the GWT, and Rev 20 calls this period a thousand years.

This is the house that God built. Not the house that Jack built.
 
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BABerean2

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The second death only takes place at the GWT.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



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Zao is life

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Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
The last enemy made to cease is death." 1 Cor 15:22-26

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:6

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev 20:4-5
 
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Douggg

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You claim the Revelation 11:18 judgment occurs in heaven, even though it includes reward for some and destruction for others.
The verse (2Corinthians2:10-12) says appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

It occurs shortly after the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". (Revelation 11:15)
How long is "forever".

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Daniel was a prophet, who interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream of when the Kingdom of God would take control of the earth.


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months. So when the 7th angel sounds, there is 42 months left, and a time/times/half time left for Satan and his kingdom.

When the 7th angels sounds, God begins taking the kingdoms of the world away from Satan and his third of the angel's kingdom. Dismantling it over the course of the time, times, half times.
 
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BABerean2

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The verse (2Corinthians2:10-12) says appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Daniel was a prophet, who interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream of when the Kingdom of God would take control of the earth.


Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months. So when the 7th angel sounds, there is 42 months left, and a time/times/half time left for Satan and his kingdom.

When the 7th angels sounds, God begins taking the kingdoms of the world away from Satan and his third of the angel's kingdom. Dismantling it over the course of the time, times, half times.


Once again, we find your own private interpretation of the text by redefining the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

There is nothing about 42 months in Revelation 11:15-18.


.
 
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BABerean2

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"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
The last enemy made to cease is death." 1 Cor 15:22-26

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:6

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev 20:4-5


Your first text says those that belong to Christ at His coming.
This passage kills future salvation during your version of the Millennium.


Do you think the scripture above erases Revelation 11:15-18, and Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13?

These passages prove the Premill doctrine cannot be correct.


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Douggg

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Once again, we find your own private interpretation of the text by redefining the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

There is nothing about 42 months in Revelation 11:15-18.
The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months. That's why the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 13, which the 42 months are in Revelation 13:5.

On my chart, illustration, see the ten horns with crowns on the one head - the beast person?

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BABerean2

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The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months. That's why the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 13, which the 42 months are in Revelation 13:5.

On my chart, illustration, see the ten horns with crowns on the one head - the beast person?

View attachment 287260


42 months is 3 1/2 years.

This rule occurs before the seventh trumpet.


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Douggg

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42 months is 3 1/2 years.

This rule occurs before the seventh trumpet.


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In the days of the 7th angel sounding the mystery of God which he declared to the prophets should be finished. John was then was given the little book to eat, and after which he begin to prophesy again - which John then begins Revelation 11.

That mystery is of the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling Kingdom here on earth which in Daniel 2 is in the days of the ten kings. The 42 months that they rule with the beast.

The 7th angel sounds and the war in the second heaven begins - with Satan and his angels cast down to earth as God begins dismantling his kingdom over a time/times/half times period.

The ten kings rule with the beast for 42 months
Satan, cast down to earth, will concurrently have a time/times/half times left.

Then Jesus returns as the 42 months and the time/times/half times expire on the day Jesus Returns.




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Spiritual Jew

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Of course it makes sense. Satan was so powerful that he got Adam and Eve, who were created in the image and likeness of God and had direct communication with God in the garden, to believe that God was lying or hiding something from them:

"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate." Gen 3:4-6

If those who had direct communication with God in the garden could be beguiled by Satan this way, then so can all sons of Adam:

"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea." Rev 20:7-8

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time." Rev 20:2-3

The huge mistake of all Amils is to fail to see that the binding and loosing of Satan is directly linked in the Bible to his ability to deceive the nations, the sons of Adam.

The second huge mistake of all Amils is to assume that Satan is currently bound, and therefore not able to deceive the sons of Adam during the age in-between Calvary and the appearance of Christ in His glory.

I do not overestimate the power God has allowed Satan. If anything, you both underestimate the power God has allowed Satan, and overestimate the sons of Adam.
I would not equate Adam and Eve's situation to experiencing Jesus in all His glory for 1000+ years. Not even close. What understanding did Adam and Eve have of God in the beginning? Very little compared to having 1000+ years of Him being in their presence.

Despite Christ's direct influence on the earth for all that time, a number as the sand of the seashore will rebel against Him? Why would they do that? They would not be naive like Adam and Eve were. They would have 1000+ years of experiencing Jesus firsthand and learning from Him directly. You don't think after 1000 years they would have developed a love for Christ and His ways that they would never want to depart from?

Again, I believe you are giving Satan too much credit here. If you think he has the power to reverse 1000+ years of Christ's direct influence on the world in all His glory then you must think he is all powerful.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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They will have the same hope that we repentant sinners have today. They will also have the same warnings that we repentant sinners have today about falling away from faith, which those who believe in OSAS ignore.

In the scriptures (minus any human interpretation of the scriptures), death and hades deliver the dead that are still in them at the close of the thousand years, after Satan has been released, after the final Gog-Magog judgment, after Satan has been cast into the LOF, and at the final GWT.

So this implies that not only will there be souls still in hades who were not resurrected from the dead at the time of the first resurrection when Christ appeared, but there will be mortals dying during the thousand years, during which Satan is bound and unable to deceive.

The scriptures do not tell us that Christ will remain on earth during the millennium. The scriptures tell us only that those who were beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or its image or receive its mark or the number of its name, will live and reign with Christ - but that does not mean Christ has to be on the earth with them - and Satan will be bound.

I'm not making any guesses about what scripture does not say - but if I speculate, I would speculate that Christ will set His feet on the Mount of Olives after His appearance and destroy the armies gathered against Jerusalem, but He won't remain on the earth 1,000 years - He can be seated on His throne in heaven, reigning through His resurrected saints; and the Revelation also does not tell us that all resurrected saints will remain on earth during the millennium. Neither does scripture tell us anything about "how many" mortals will be left alive after the defeat and destruction of the beast - but Daniel, when speaking about the destruction of that same beast, tells us:

"And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:12

Daniel sees this in the vision which was later explained to him:

"Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time." Dan 7:11-12

I'm 100% convinced Daniel's final beast is the same beast as the beast of the Revelation. "The rest of the beasts" can only be referring to the kingdoms of the nations. Their dominion will be taken away from them, but their lives made longer for a season and a time. The kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Christ, and He will reign (over the nations) forever and ever, starting with the millennium. Satan is bound for that thousand years, unable to deceive the nations. At the close of the thousand years he is released and goes out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the world again - Gog and Magog.
That was quite a long answer to a yes or no question. And I don't see your answer here.

Again, would you say that the "mortals who are now believers" that you mentioned will have inherited the kingdom of God at that point? Yes or no, please.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The doctrinal bias is produced by failure to recognise that all these scriptures imply more than one judgment - the Lord's destruction of the beast on one hand, and the GWT on the other - and if you read carefully, you will see why:-

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Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

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(i) Take note that the second death only takes place after the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire:
Right. What point are you trying to make here?

(ii) Take note that those who are Christ's at His coming, will not be part of the second death:
Obviously.

Here's the eternal punishment - the second death:

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13-14 )

The lake of fire is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Right. So, what is the difference between that and this:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Here's the fate of the righteous who belong to Christ:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:4-6
Let me ask you something. Is it necessary to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over you? Does the second death have power over you now? Will it have power over you after you die? I hope you answer no to those questions.

It seems to me that having part in the first resurrection is what makes it so that the second death has no authority over you. So, if that's the case, how can that be referring to our bodily resurrection?

Note:

1. Second death is mentioned twice in the Revelation - and it only takes place after death and hades have delivered the souls in them.

2. The righteous souls of those who had died in Christ are not delivered from death at that point.

Why?

It's because the second death has no power over them - they were already resurrected at the appearance of Christ:


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy made to cease is death.

27 For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him.

28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected things to Him, so that God may be all things in all. (1 Cor 15:22-28)
Again, I have to ask. Does the second death have authority over us now or when we die? It does not. So, why would we need to wait until our bodily resurrection for the second death to no longer have authority over us?

Also, you pointed out that the last enemy to be defeated is death. While death may not officially be cast into the fire until the judgment, that doesn't mean it won't have already been defeated. It's defeat is recorded here:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory".

it is at the point when Christ returns and all the righteous dead are raised that death will have been declared defeated and swallowed up in victory. It's important to note Paul was quoting the following passage there:

Isaiah 25:7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; 8 he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken.

The passage is also quoted here:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

This means that the new heavens and new earth will appear as a result of the second coming of Christ at the last trumpet.

What we agree on:​

Judgment - the final judgment - will take place at the close of the millennium.​

Those who died in Christ, will not be delivered up by death and hades at the time of the second death, and therefore will not be among those being judged at the GWT - because their souls will already have been resurrected at the appearance of Christ. The second death has no power of them.

So there is a time-lapse between the appearance of Christ and the second death.
How long is this time lapse?

The Revelation of Jesus tells us it's a one-thousand year period.

"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6)
A literal interpretation along with an assumption that what is described in Rev 20 follows what is described in Rev 19 chronologically tells you that. Of course, I don't interpret it that way and I believe interpreting it that way causes you to contradict a number of other scripture passages.
 
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