Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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Spiritual Jew

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This is what is going to happen at the Second Coming rapture event of the 6th seal. The church is made complete. Then the final harvest will start. The people of the kingdom are not the same people as the righteous. There are 3 types of people mentioned in this rather symbolic parable.
No, there is not. It mentions "the people of the kingdom" and "the people of the evil one". No other group is mentioned. Has someone taught you these things or did you come up with them yourself? You seem to have a lot of private interpretations.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I agree with you here. Who said anyone will die during the 1000 year reign?
Many premils believe that based on their understanding of Isaiah 65:17-25. They see that passage as referring to the millennial time period and they see a reference in that passage to people dying during that time.
 
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Zao is life

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@Spiritual Jew
@BABerean2
IMHO it is not the 2nd coming that we have to wait for in order to be immune to the 2nd death. Immunity to the 2nd death is obtained, according to Jesus, by believing in Him. I would argue this has been happening to all believers since the 1st advent.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

IMHO, revelation 20, is a parable given in the form of a vision to John.

1.) According to the gospel and epistlolic narrative, Jesus is the 1st resurrection. There is no mention of another 1st physical bodily resurrection apart from Jesus in the gospel/epistles:


1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent

revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.


John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.


2.) And those that partake in this first resurrection, are born again to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests to God. Such is the narrative of the gospels and epistles, that all who believe in Jesus partake in His resurrection to be born again and a kingdom of priests.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

And here are the results of us being buried with Him in baptism and raised with his resurrection according to the gospel and epistolic narrative:



revelation 20:5-6 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! 1.) The second death has no power over them, 2.) but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

A.) The 2nd death already has no power over the believer. Per Jesus, those who believe in Him will never die.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

According to Jesus, the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the 2nd death. So what does it mean to "overcome" ?
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.

According to John, "overcoming" has to with faith in Christ, which corresponds to Jesus' teaching that those who believe in Him will never die.

1 John 5:4 because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

B.) According to Peter, the body of Christ is already a ROYAL priest hood to God.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light
Everything you said in your post is 100% true and an accurate reflection of the scriptures you quote, which are beautiful and uplifting scriptures that fill my heart with joy and thanksgiving and praise to God and the Lord Jesus Christ very often (not every time but very often) when I read them (as happened again while I was reading your post); and we can only praise our Lord and Savior for those promises (which are also statements of fact).

So I'm going to tell you why I still don't believe the thousand years is symbolic (but this is just me, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, and in a big way I'm glad there are people who do not agree with me, because I could be wrong:

Even though what you say is true in your post, based on the scriptures you give, in my mind, and to my way of thinking, it does not prove Amil - and the reasons why I say this remain the reasons I gave in my OP in this thread: I do not believe Satan has been bound or "bound in a manner" or "restricted" in the way Amils believe he is (any more than he always was restricted by God between the time of the fall of Adam and the time of Christ). Neither do I believe that the Greek word χιλιάς chiliás leaves any room for a symbolic interpretation of the thousand years.

Neither do I see any reason whatsoever, when reading the text in the Revelation, to believe that Revelation 20 does not follow chronologically in time after Revelation 19:11-21.

So I go with this:

Otherwise, the 1,000 years that separates 2 future resurrection becomes new information not previously taught by Jesus in the gospels or the apostles in their epistles.


The Revelation is the final Revelation of God, so yes, it complements and completes all prophecy which came before it, and all Revelation which came before it.

So as a result of what I put into my OP in this thread, and as a result of what my mind and my thinking and my brain causes me to see, what I see is that when the saints are resurrected at the time of the appearance of Christ in glory, the rest who had not died in Christ, remain dead for a thousand years. These are only delivered up from death and hades after the thousand years

(and after Satan is loosed [again] at the close of the thousand years, and has gathered his Gog-Magog armies against the camp of the saints, and these have been destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven; and after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades are them destroyed in the lake of fire where by this time, Satan is and the beast & false prophet are.

So therefore, yes - I see more than one "Day of the LORD": one when the beast is destroyed by Christ at His appearance, and a final one which the Revelation calls the Great White Throne.

I also believe that this is implied in the following promises - the existence of people who at least certain of the saints will be reigning over during the thousand years:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me,
in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(Rev 2:11 and 26-27; mat 19:28)

Hebrews 2:8 does not merely imply, but actually states that during the current age, we see not yet all things having been placed under Christ's feet.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul does not mention the resurrection of those who do not belong to Christ at His coming. To be fair, though, neither 1 Cor 15 nor 2 Peter 3 mention a thousand years following the Lord's appearance - but the Revelation is the final Revelation of God, and complements all Revelation that came before it regarding the end times and what follows, so I have no problem with the idea of new information being given. There is in fact, a great deal of new information given in the Revelation.

So my brain does not allow me to ignore the things I mentioned in my OP in this thread - but I'm glad there are many who disagree with me (aside from the many who agree with me), because I could be wrong.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If by Christians, you mean the church, then no. The church is not going to be in the Millennium. If you mean those who follow Christ as the leader with the rod of iron, that would be all, except the few billion who rebel in the last year or two.
Why would people who follow Christ not be considered Christians who are in the church? That is ludicrous.

When did Paul ever indicate that the following would not be true at some point in the future?

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It should be obvious that this is a description of those who are part of the church. So, show me a scripture which indicates that this verse won't be true anymore at some point in the future.
 
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parousia70

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It is a very strange notion indeed, that somehow during the Millennium, even the unrepentant will "Follow" Jesus and will be granted the right to share in Christ's victory over Satan, even as they remain unrepentant.
 
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Zao is life

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It is a very strange notion indeed, that somehow during the Millennium, even the unrepentant will "Follow" Jesus and will be granted the right to share in Christ's victory over Satan, even as they remain unrepentant.
If any mortals enter a "literal" thousand years they will have become repentant, but not in time for the resurrection of those who died in Christ, at the time of His appearance in His glory.

The Bible does not tell us that there will be mortals entering the millennium, it tells us only that certain of the saints will be reigning with Christ over the nations with a rod of iron.

That, admittedly, is not enough to imply mortals entering a literal thousand years, having repented when they see Christ appearing in the clouds in His glory.

Nevertheless, my brain does not allow me, given the things I mentioned in my OP of this thread, to ignore all the things that point to, or at least seem to point to, a literal thousand years.

And I'm glad there are people who disagree with me. If there's one thing that has been proved to me by two people in this thread, it's that Zechariah 14 cannot be used in support of a literal thousand years following the return of Christ. Those two people are both Amillennialists (@BABerean2 and @claninja )
 
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BABerean2

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The Bible does not tell us that there will be mortals entering the millennium, it tells us only that certain of the saints will be reigning with Christ over the nations with a rod of iron.


What does the "son" do with the rod of Iron in Psalm 2?


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


.
 
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Zao is life

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What does the "son" do with the rod of Iron in Psalm 2?


Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


.
In Psalm 2 He breaks them and shatters them (with a rod of iron). In the Revelation He shepherds them (with a rod of iron). The latter follows the former.

The timing for the former and the timing for the latter can be argued by saints, but God knows the timing for each.
 
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BABerean2

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In Psalm 2 He breaks them and shatters them (with a rod of iron). In the Revelation He shepherds them (with a rod of iron). The latter follows the former.

The timing for the former and the timing for the latter can be argued by saints, but God knows the timing for each.



Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


.
 
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Zao is life

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Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


.
Take a look at the Greek word - it's shepherd. Compare the difference in the Greek between striking the nations and shepherding the nations in Rev 19:15:

Rev 2:27 And he will rule (Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō) them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father.

Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō (as seen in the above verse) G4165, from G4166 to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

Same word used in Rev 12:5 for rule over the nations.

Same word used in Rev 19:15, after it's said He will strike the nations with His sword:

Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike (Greek πατάσσω patássō) the nations. And He will shepherd ((Greek ποιμαίνω poimaínō)) them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

Greek πατάσσω patássō G3960 probably prolongation from G3817; to knock (gently or with a weapon or fatally):--smite, strike. Compare G5180.

Ps 2:9 You shall break (Hebrew râ‛a‛) them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Hebrew râ‛a‛ H7489
A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for {nothing} that {is} bad ({physically} socially or morally). (associate selves and show self friendly are by mistake for H7462.): - {afflict} associate selves [by mistake for {H7462]} break ({down} in {pieces}) + {displease} ({be} {bring} do) evil ({doer} {entreat} {man}) show self friendly [by mistake for {H7462]} do {harm} (do) {hurt} (behave {self} deal) {ill} X {indeed} do {mischief} {punish} still {vex} (do) wicked ({doer} {-ly}) be ({deal} do) worse.

Notice how Rev 19:15 speaks about Christ striking the nations with His sharp sword, and how He will shepherd them with a rod of iron?

Ps 2:1-9 Why do the nations rage, and the peoples meditate on a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers plot together, against the LORD and against His anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands in two and cast away their cords from us.
He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the LORD shall mock at them.
Then He shall speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His wrath.
Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion.

I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break (Hebrew râ‛a‛) them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


In the Revelation we are told about the beast gathering its armies against the Lamb, and being defeated by Him before being cast into the lake of fire. Psalm 2 closes with,

"And now be wise, O kings; be instructed, O judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled in but a little time. Blessed are all who put their trust in Him."

So anyway, the Hebrew in Psalm 2 talks about Christ breaking the nations (with a rod of iron), and the Revelation talks about Him shepherding the nations (with a rod of iron) after smiting them with the sword from His mouth.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If any mortals enter a "literal" thousand years they will have become repentant, but not in time for the resurrection of those who died in Christ, at the time of His appearance in His glory.

The Bible does not tell us that there will be mortals entering the millennium, it tells us only that certain of the saints will be reigning with Christ over the nations with a rod of iron.

That, admittedly, is not enough to imply mortals entering a literal thousand years, having repented when they see Christ appearing in the clouds in His glory.

Nevertheless, my brain does not allow me, given the things I mentioned in my OP of this thread, to ignore all the things that point to, or at least seem to point to, a literal thousand years.

And I'm glad there are people who disagree with me. If there's one thing that has been proved to me by two people in this thread, it's that Zechariah 14 cannot be used in support of a literal thousand years following the return of Christ. Those two people are both Amillennialists (@BABerean2 and @claninja )
It's not clear from what you said in this post, but I believe you do think that some repentant mortals will enter the millennial kingdom, right? If so, then does that not contradict what Paul said here:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
 
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BABerean2

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So anyway, the Hebrew in Psalm 2 talks about Christ breaking the nations (with a rod of iron), and the Revelation talks about Him shepherding the nations (with a rod of iron) after smiting them with the sword from His mouth.


Revelation 2:27

(ESV) and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(ESV+) and R5he will R6ruleN1 them with a rod of iron, R7as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(Geneva) And he shall rule them with a rodde of yron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall they be broken.

(GW) Those people will rule the nations with iron scepters and shatter them like pottery.

(KJV) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(KJV+) AndG2532 he shall ruleG4165 themG846 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron;G4603 asG5613 theG3588 vesselsG4632 of a potterG2764 shall they be broken to shivers:G4937 even asG5613 IG2504 receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962


G4937
συντρίβω
suntribō
soon-tree'-bo
From G4862 and the base of G5147; to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise.
Total KJV occurrences: 8


(NKJV) 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

(YLT) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron—as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken—as I also have received from my Father;


.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 2:27

(ESV) and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(ESV+) and R5he will R6ruleN1 them with a rod of iron, R7as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

(Geneva) And he shall rule them with a rodde of yron: and as the vessels of a potter, shall they be broken.

(GW) Those people will rule the nations with iron scepters and shatter them like pottery.

(KJV) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(KJV+) AndG2532 he shall ruleG4165 themG846 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron;G4603 asG5613 theG3588 vesselsG4632 of a potterG2764 shall they be broken to shivers:G4937 even asG5613 IG2504 receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962


G4937
συντρίβω
suntribō
soon-tree'-bo
From G4862 and the base of G5147; to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise.
Total KJV occurrences: 8


(NKJV) 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

(YLT) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron—as the vessels of the potter they shall be broken—as I also have received from my Father;


.
That matches up with this:

Psalm 2:9 (NIV) You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Psalm 2:9 (KJV): Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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In Psalm 2 He breaks them and shatters them (with a rod of iron). In the Revelation He shepherds them (with a rod of iron). The latter follows the former.

The timing for the former and the timing for the latter can be argued by saints, but God knows the timing for each.
Did you not know that Revelation 19:15 is directly referencing the prophecy of Psalm 2:9 which means it is the fulfillment of Psalm 2:9? So, Psalm 2:9 gives us more insight into what "ruling" with a rod of iron really means. It means to break or destroy the nations. It goes right along with the rest of Rev 19:15 which speaks of Him smiting the nations and treading the winepress of God's wrath on them.

What sense would it make to speak of smiting the nations and treading the winepress of God's wrath on them and at the same time speak of shepherding them? Does that really make any sense?

Why would He only destroy some of them, but not the rest? What is it about the unbelievers He doesn't take His wrath out on that is different than the unbelievers He does take His wrath out on?
 
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Timtofly

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There is nothing in the Bible about mortals and immortals living together for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.
It comes from those promoting the Premill doctrine.
So some false teaching pushed you into a different false teaching?

A flimsy excuse, no? There are neither mortals nor immortals in the Millennium on earth. That is why there is the first Resurrection. They are dead humans bodily resurrected, and they are given incorruptible bodies. They find partners, obviously. They do not remember their former lives. This is a brand new earth and a fresh start. Instead of funeral services, there is a dating service and marriages. Their offspring are born with incorruptible bodies. Now we get into the second generation. This is a new breed of humanity who chose Christ because Christ is ruling with the rod of iron. It is either obey or die. Without a sin nature or the knowledge of good and evil, it is a whole different ball game, that we can not even imagine. So putting sin into the mix, is a false teaching and pretty messed up, definitely against Scripture. People do not even get Scripture right that they think is referring to the NHNE, when it can only pertain to current reality.
 
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Timtofly

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How can mortals live on the earth for 1,000 years without any of them being killed in accidents?
If they cannot be killed in accidents, that would make them immortals.
You are thinking with the knowledge of good and evil. If you can remove such knowledge from your mind, you would know what happens in the Millennium.
 
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Timtofly

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I see two: people of the kingdom, and weeds.
The righteous were raptured. They have glorified bodies that shine like stars.

The kingdom are those resurrected living during the Millennium on earth. The dead dead, heading for the second death in the lof, are the weeds.
 
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So some false teaching pushed you into a different false teaching?

A flimsy excuse, no? There are neither mortals nor immortals in the Millennium on earth. That is why there is the first Resurrection. They are dead humans bodily resurrected, and they are given incorruptible bodies.
Incorruptible but not immortal? And you're accusing someone else of false teaching? Okay.

Instead of funeral services, there is a dating service and marriages.
You are talking about how it will be in the age to come. Maybe you've never seen this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Their offspring are born with incorruptible bodies. Now we get into the second generation. This is a new breed of humanity who chose Christ because Christ is ruling with the rod of iron. It is either obey or die. Without a sin nature or the knowledge of good and evil, it is a whole different ball game, that we can not even imagine. So putting sin into the mix, is a false teaching and pretty messed up, definitely against Scripture. People do not even get Scripture right that they think is referring to the NHNE, when it can only pertain to current reality.
Which scripture is it that you think supports your private interpretations? Does it bother you at all that you hold to views that no one else has? Does God teach you things that He doesn't teach anyone else?
 
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Timtofly

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I agree with your first paragraph; but what scripture did you have in mind for your second paragraph?
Genesis 2. Read the description of the very first Lord's Day. We were supposed to Remember that Lord's Day and look to the future for the last Lord's Day. All humans know today, as being deceived by Satan, is the 6 days given to Adam's sinful descendants. Exodus 20 in the one commandment that had 2 parts. Thou shalt work 6 days. Thou shalt labor, 6000 years. Remember the Sabbath. It was a Lord's Day. 1000 years set apart for God. The earth functioned properly for 1000 years on the first Lord's Day. Then God created a Garden and placed a son of God into the Garden. After this son of God named all the animals, then God named this son of God: Adam.

Genesis 1, does not call them the sons of God. Being in God's image though, can only be described as a son of God. God makes us back into sons of God, in Christ.

Genesis was not given to the Hebrews at Mt. Sinai to promote the sons of God aspect. They were in the midst of the wicked Nations, and set apart like Adam as God's chosen people for that time. It was not time yet to claim the Son of God, or god title yet. They did not even live up to Abraham and Jacob's standards as God's chosen people. Yet even Jesus pointed out that they were "called gods". Only after Jesus died and rose again would any understand what a son of God meant when it came to Adam. Adam was still the man, that physically brought sin into the world. Adam lost what it was to be a son of God created on the 6th day. The Hebrews, even if Moses tried to tell them never realized Adam's original status.

Many today still do not get it. Adam was the line of genealogy. That is because either all sons of God became corrupted. Or they left earth because sin became too great for them and they walked with God like Enoch did. Either way, only Noah, a direct descendant of Adam repopulated the earth. And even after a few generations, the Nations again followed Satan and his corruption.

The point is, Genesis hides Adam's son of God status and all of the original sons of God. It is more about sin and destruction brought on by sin. But humans forgot to Remember the first Lord's Day, just like the church today rejects the final Lord's Day, and claim it cannot happen.

God's Word and God does not force any one to believe only a certain way. That would deny free will, and just be coercion. Paul wanted heresy to be dealt with and stamped out. However the church took that and stamped out the truth of God's Word eventually. Any one who opposed apostasy was burned at the stake. The truth was snuffed out with the martyrs, and the harlot was given over to human government, instead of the great commission of spreading the Gospel.
 
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